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[DarthGizka]

Eamon's troops would have taken a week to get to Ostagar, and Cailan didn't want to wait.

 

As if anyone at Ostagar had a say regarding when the battle was to take place, with the darkspawn horde coming to Ostagar itself...

 

P.S.: My memory was a bit faulty. Here's the dialogue:

 

Duncan: Your uncle sends his greetings and reminds you that Redcliffe forces could be here in less than a week.

Cailan: Ha! Eamon just wants in on the glory. We've won three battles against these monsters and tomorrow should be no different.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

So - Ostagar. Where is Eamon? Why hasn't Cailan called on him? Loghain perhaps wouldn't advise Cailan to call on Eamon considering his part in Anora being set aside as a barren wife. Surely though, the Redcliffe troops would take a lot of pressure off the soldiers already in place. 

Loghain doesn't seem to know about that yet; his dialogue during RtO has the tone of one who is caught completely flat-footed by the revelation. On the other hand, the timeline for what happened does seem to require Eamon to at least already be sick by the time of Ostagar, and Gaider does seem to take as given that Jowan is already there at the time. (Gaider's explanation for this is that Loghain knew something was up even if he didn't know the details, so yeah, I'd say Eamon might have been on his do-not-call list.)

[HiroVoid]

Loghain doesn't seem to know about that yet; his dialogue during RtO is has the tone of one who is caught completely flat-footed by the revelation. On the other hand, the timeline for what happened does seem to require Eamon to at least already be sick by the time of Ostagar, and Gaider does seem to take as given that Jowan is already there at the time. (Gaider's explanation for this is that Loghain knew something was up even if he didn't know the details, so yeah, I'd say Eamon might have been on his do-not-call list.)

Yeah.  Again, I would attribute that to the time when Loghain was going to betray Cailan for going off to marry Celene originally where as that didn't happen in the final release, so the explanations for certain actions are pretty weak.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Sounds legit.

[ReD BaKen9]

Really liked reading all of the posts, thanks for the replies guys.

[Tremere]

No problem, some other great bits of dialogue is if you bring Loghain to the Return to Ostagar DLC. Here is a link if you haven't seen it yet, https://www.youtube....h?v=1n8kt6Ps-tc

 

 

EDIT: https://www.youtube....h?v=qiudDPK6CTE This is also really great, provides insight on things.

All these videos did is justify every reason why he never survives any of my playthroughs. Thank you for saving me the  trouble of exploring the option.

[gottaloveme]

I'm glad now that I did execute Loghain - I won't have to listen to Wynne carrying on like a harpy

[Shadow Storm]

The question comes down to who you like more Loghain or Alistair. They both are interesting in their own way and i have some measure of respect for both. I can see why Loghain betrayed the king. He was a young, arrogant and inexperienced kid that had delusions he was going to be the next superhero and end the blight single handedly. Loghain tried to sway his decision and he would hear none of it.

 

Had the king remained in charge i have no doubt the army would all have been destroyed then who would have been there for the counter attack? What little reinforcements were offered from the different races would not have been enough for the true threat. A delusional king is just as dangerous as any Darkspawn threat. Both Alistair and Loghain have true Darkspawn and battle experience and thus would have made the better choice.

 

The other side of a true king is being even handed and fair. Loghain had very colorful views towards Orlais and would have ultimately caused another war. (that he wanted) For this reason i wager Alistair ultimately would be the best option for peace. He may be a smart ass at times but when it comes to battle smarts versus Darkspawn and diplomacy Alistair and his Redcliff advisers will always win out.

[Xetykins]

The question comes down to who you like more Loghain or Alistair.

True, but not in a superficial sort of way. For me personally, it all comes down to whatever actions you can stomach enough to justify that choice. I've seen too much men/women in power who gets away with so many things like loghain irl. A man has to have at least a small measure of compassion to be considered human. He has none of that.

There are times indeed that the end justifies the means. But not when the means costs countless of human lives.

[Xetykins]

My useless fone grr.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

I sometimes let him live, depends on my warden's personality. I've always quite liked a villain and after reading the books as well I can't help but like Loghain. Last time I played I heard some dialogue from Ser Cauthrien that I'd never heard before. Usually I just go straight for the persuade option but its always bugged me how quick she changes her mind, one min she's all: "Loghain is fab, I'll never betray him..." next things she's saying: "actually he's a nutter you crack on." So last playthrough I went for the intimidate option and you actually have a much more sensible argument with her and she makes some pretty good points in his defense. If you criticize his use of torture she'll point out that things aren't so black and white when you're not just fighting monsters. He really does believe that what he is doing is the best for Fereldan and that makes him a much more interesting baddie than the darkspawn.

[Frostfyre]

Like another person stated; it depends on who you like more, Alistair or Loghain and how you view him throughout the game.

[jtav]

I'm a Dwarf Noble who killed Trian, so I'd feel like a hypocrite if I didn't spare Loghain.

[Mike3207]

Really liked reading all of the posts, thanks for the replies guys.

Hats off to anyone who read all 1600+ posts of this thread-well deserved indeed.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

True, but not in a superficial sort of way. For me personally, it all comes down to whatever actions you can stomach enough to justify that choice. I've seen too much men/women in power who gets away with so many things like loghain irl. A man has to have at least a small measure of compassion to be considered human. He has none of that.

There are times indeed that the end justifies the means. But not when the means costs countless of human lives.

The countless human lives lost are a limitedly bad means, and can be justified by a sufficiently good end. All the countless lives mean is that it needs to be a really good end. Now, the idea behind Ostagar (assuming we take Loghain's word as read, or find that the evidence supports it) was that by accepting that the lives of the men in the valley were lost no matter what he did and withdrawing his soldiers, he was able to save the lives that were still salvageable. As for Loghain not having compassion for the lives that he was accepting as lost, that's not consistent with his dialogue after you recruit him. "I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families. I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day." He might be acting, sure, but he's past the point where such a thing benefits him and was never going to convince the specific mage he's talking to (Wynne) anyway.

[Xetykins]

The countless human lives lost are a limitedly bad means, and can be justified by a sufficiently good end. All the countless lives mean is that it needs to be a really good end. Now, the idea behind Ostagar (assuming we take Loghain's word as read, or find that the evidence supports it) was that by accepting that the lives of the men in the valley were lost no matter what he did and withdrawing his soldiers, he was able to save the lives that were still salvageable. As for Loghain not having compassion for the lives that he was accepting as lost, that's not consistent with his dialogue after you recruit him. "I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families. I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day." He might be acting, sure, but he's past the point where such a thing benefits him and was never going to convince the specific mage he's talking to (Wynne) anyway.

In my opinion Loghain bolted at Ostagar, but as I've pointed bazillion times on my past posts I'm not touching that because it remains a grey area for me. Just because you like loghain and can " conveniently" explain ostagar unfortunately does not justify it for me. And its not as if its the only atrocity he's done anyway. Using slavery as an example, life is cheap, and he would sell his own daughter to buy one more ammo to make sure he gets his own way.

[Jaison1986]

"The end justifies the means" as long as other people pay the means so he and his can enjoy the benefits of the favorable end (for him).

 

Other soldiers can be abandoned "sacrificed" in battle as long as he and his come out alive. He even tells a Warden in camp if you spare him that he thinks of soldiers' lives as tools or something similar. He'll double-cross and abandon as many people he promised support (like Uldred, Jowan and the mages) as soon as it becomes inconvenient or threatens him. Elves can be sold into slavery to fund his civil war to maintain his own regency, as long as he doesn't have to step down from the regency to end the civil war. (Ferelden freedom is paramount when humans like him might be subjugated like Freeholders under Orlais, but elves can rot in slavery like the elves to Tevinter without him losing a wink of sleep.)

 

No price is too high as long as it's not him or his that has to pay, and things come out his way.

 

And if it means things going your way, would the price be too high? I don't know about you, but most people don't think twice before doing the dark ritual with Morrigan because they choose personal revenge over duty at the landsmeet, and now can't face the consequences of their actions. What if it backfires badly in Inquisition? It will be on the players head. I for one, choose to do it simply because I'm curious about what the ritual will result in, but if the consequences are terrible, I can easily go back on my save and have Loghain sacrifice himself instead. Can most people say the same?

[Milan92]

And if it means things going your way, would the price be too high? I don't know about you, but most people don't think twice before doing the dark ritual with Morrigan because they choose personal revenge over duty at the landsmeet, and now can't face the consequences of their actions. What if it backfires badly in Inquisition? It will be on the players head. I for one, choose to do it simply because I'm curious about what the ritual will result in, but if the consequences are terrible, I can easily go back on my save and have Loghain sacrifice himself instead. Can most people say the same?

 

I'll compare it with the amount of content Loghain has in DA:I and weight that with how bad the DR turns out to be in DA:I. If the good outweights the bad then I'll just keep doing the DR. If I don't think Loghain's content is satisfying enough to let the bad stuff happen then I'll change my save and let him sacrifice himself.

[Jaison1986]

I'll compare it with the amount of content Loghain has in DA:I and weight that with how bad the DR turns out to be in DA:I. If the good outweights the bad then I'll just keep doing the DR. If I don't think Loghain's content is satisfying enough to let the bad stuff happen then I'll change my save and let him sacrifice himself.

 

Same for me. I don't do decision in the game because I like them. I do them with the long lasting consequences in mind. What I care is if the ultimate outcome will be good or bad. And more often then not I have to put personal feelings aside.

[jtav]

Am I the only one for whom Ostagar is irrelevant? I'm a Dwarf Noble who killed my own brother. If Duncan can take me, I can take Loghain. I've no desire for vengeance. He deserves it? Well most of us should tremble to get our desserts.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

In my opinion Loghain bolted at Ostagar, but as I've pointed bazillion times on my past posts I'm not touching that because it remains a grey area for me. Just because you like loghain and can " conveniently" explain ostagar unfortunately does not justify it for me. And its not as if its the only atrocity he's done anyway. Using slavery as an example, life is cheap, and he would sell his own daughter to buy one more ammo to make sure he gets his own way.

Oh, right. Sorry, that was a while ago. As for the slavery, I'm not touching that one since it's somewhat less grey. I'm really only saying that people who want him dead should leave Ostagar alone for much the same reason you are. (That, and that the ends-don't-justify-the-means logic you're using isn't always entirely pragmatic.)

[dragonflight288]

There are a lot of reasons to want Loghain dead. You (or your warden) feel personally betrayed by what happened at Ostagar, they hold him responsible for slaving, poisoning Eamon, hiring Jowan and using a blood mage to do it, working with Howe, whatever, it's just a game and everyone can have a different view or playthrough. Some people will kill him in one playthrough, then spare him and have him sacrifice himself in another, or spare him and do the Dark Ritual so both the Warden and Loghain lives in another playthrough. Some people may only be willing to do one of the above, and as it is subjective, no one would be wrong on how they want to play their game.

 

With that said, my personal view is that if people want Loghain executed, it shouldn't be because of Ostagar alone. There's enough evidence that lends credence to what Loghain has been saying the whole time, they couldn't win the battle and Cailan brought his death upon himself. Saying he planned it goes against all evidence, including the lead writer David Gaider's own comments. If you feel slavery deserves death, which my Hawke did in DA2, killed all slavers he found, then Loghain who willingly sells the elves of the alienage to Tevinter as slaves is guilty of such a crime, but if you feel forcing him to be a Warden and serving in Orlais, the country that he hates above all else is worthy enough punishment, and being a Warden is not really an honor at all despite Alistair's rose-colored perspective without Duncan, then you condemn Loghain to a life working for the good of all man, elven and dwarven kind in a country he absolutey hates, where he's likely to die a gruesome death, then again, by all means. Or you may feel like he deserves the chance for redemption and allow him to die killing the archdemon. 

 

There are no wrong reasons, but I feel that whatever our reasons may be, they should be backed by legitimate facts. And yes, I know emotions aren't governed by logic, but it's not defending the man's honor and everything he did when it's pointed out that Ostagar was more Cailan's fault than Loghain's, and the Horde being so much larger than they expected. 

[Ryzaki]

Yeah I mostly play HNs and Mage/CEs they have plenty of reasons to want Loghain's head on a platter that have nothing to do with Ostagar.