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[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

so much for Loghain then?

It varies from player to player. Or character to character in my case, since despite seeing Loghain's side of the story on a lot of his "crimes" (and even some of his crimes) I usually kill him.

[Jaison1986]

It varies from player to player. Or character to character in my case, since despite seeing Loghain's side of the story on a lot of his "crimes" (and even some of his crimes) I usually kill him.

 

Me too actually, despite all the arguments I make here. I played the game 3 times and Loghain survived only once. 

[Ryzaki]

I'm starting to spare Loghain more often because Archie needs his meal and doing the DR makes me ill.

[TEWR]

You can WOG all you want. He kept that snake at his side fully knowing what he did. His head went flying right after Howe's.

 

Jowan and redcliffe. Like mages really need more bad PR. (And no she doesn't feel it's fully his fault. Isolde's stupid ass and Jowan are just as much to blame.)

 

And Eamon, if you spare Loghain and talk to him about the Redcliffe incident, where he asks you how likely it was that Jowan could have slipped in so easily as a tutor to Connor without the traditionalist *******'s knowledge, especially on the front of his son being a mage.

 

I'm paraphrasing, but that is the gist. And it does make sense.

 

Personally I don't hold the Eamon poisoning thing against Loghain.

[Ryzaki]

And Eamon, if you spare Loghain and talk to him about the Redcliffe incident, where he asks you how likely it was that Jowan could have slipped in so easily as a tutor to Connor without the traditionalist *******'s knowledge, especially on the front of his son being a mage.

 

I'm paraphrasing, but that is the gist. And it does make sense.

 

Personally I don't hold the Eamon poisoning thing against Loghain.

 

Of course. Eamon is pretty scummy in his own right.

 

Which is fair. YMMV on the situation and all.

[ShadowLordXII]

And Eamon, if you spare Loghain and talk to him about the Redcliffe incident, where he asks you how likely it was that Jowan could have slipped in so easily as a tutor to Connor without the traditionalist *******'s knowledge, especially on the front of his son being a mage.

 

I'm paraphrasing, but that is the gist. And it does make sense.

 

Personally I don't hold the Eamon poisoning thing against Loghain.

 

Possible, but my only objection to Eamon knowing about Jowan and Connor is how Eamon still let himself be poisoned even though there's an apostate in his estate.

 

Poisoning Eamon deprives Ferelden of yet another vital unifying and influential figure and paralyzes strength that could be used against the darkspawn. Plus, poisoning the man won't make him likely to ally with you if he were to recover (since Loghain apparently didn't want to kill Eamon).

 

Personal feelings for the man aside, this is just another of many examples of how Loghain's killing/betraying the very country that he's trying to save.

[gottaloveme]

Let's just blame Bryce Cousland for not taking the throne when it was offered.

[Xetykins]

Let's just blame Bryce Cousland for not taking the throne when it was offered.

Nothing will change as long as howe is still a family friend.

[TEWR]

I actually think had Bryce lived he might've sided with Loghain and helped Anora and him to calm the dissenting Bannorn. He's known as an ardent royalist, but that doesn't automatically mean he's a Theirin nutjob. He did give the throne to Cailan because he was the royal child, but without knowing precisely where Alistair was (to say nothing of if Bryce even knows about Alistair in the first place) and in the absence of knowledge on any other potential bastard children out there... Anora's the Queen.

 

So can we just blame Howe? If Howe wasn't in the picture, things might've gone just great for Ferelden. =P

[gottaloveme]

My fem Cousland is daddy's girl and he is certainly one of the most decent characters in the game. But sadly I've lost the point.

 

Howe and friend - do those concepts even go together?

[gottaloveme]

It varies from player to player. Or character to character in my case, since despite seeing Loghain's side of the story on a lot of his "crimes" (and even some of his crimes) I usually kill him.

Sorry River Dales - I meant that the thread seemed to have gone off topic.
 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Sorry River Dales - I meant that the thread seemed to have gone off topic.
 

This is the Bioware forum, so that's just going to happen.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I actually think had Bryce lived he might've sided with Loghain and helped Anora and him to calm the dissenting Bannorn. He's known as an ardent royalist, but that doesn't automatically mean he's a Theirin nutjob. He did give the throne to Cailan because he was the royal child, but without knowing precisely where Alistair was (to say nothing of if Bryce even knows about Alistair in the first place) and in the absence of knowledge on any other potential bastard children out there... Anora's the Queen.

 

So can we just blame Howe? If Howe wasn't in the picture, things might've gone just great for Ferelden. =P

It is not entirely clear that Bryce would have sided with Alistair even had he known of him. The Gnawed Noble conversation makes it fairly clear that there's no precedent in Ferelden for a bastard inheriting the throne.

[dragonflight288]

It is not entirely clear that Bryce would have sided with Alistair even had he known of him. The Gnawed Noble conversation makes it fairly clear that there's no precedent in Ferelden for a bastard inheriting the throne.

 

Hmm, now that I think about it, if Howe never betrayed the Couslands, but Loghain still abandoned Cailan at Ostagar...Bryce may very well have sided with Loghain.

[Jacksper]

Loghain in my opinion dies for this reason, and this reason alone.  In every Warden character I have made thus far.  Most have accepted their fate as Wardens.  Right now my Main character is a Human Noble, and he is filled with frustration of a life he never truly wanted.  At first he was amused by the idea of becoming a Warden, but when it was forced upon him whilst his family die around him, he became frustrated, to say the least.  Then after the battle in which Cailan dies, he realizes that the only man who knew him from his life before (Duncan) being a Warden was gone, and it was Loghain's fault.  He is not only a Warden, but a Warden without a proper mentor, thrust into a situation where he must lead an Order of warriors that he himself knows little about.  While learning more about himself and being a Grey Warden, he discovers that Howe, the murder of his family, is not only alive but allied with Loghain!  The man who killed his father, mother, sister-in-law and nephew as well as countless friends that he had back at his former home.  For this reason Loghain dies, all the frustrations of his life after a certain point can directly be traced back to Loghain, and a person who can just carelessly thrust a stranger into such an undesirable situation deserves nothing but to have his life taken from him.  

 

That is why Loghain cannot make my Warden feel foolish for mentioning Slavery, because my Warden actually empathizes with those who lost something dear to them, and having to face the one responsible only makes it harder for him not to unsheathe his dagger and end that traitorous person's life.  So basically, when Loghain dies, my Warden will feel that it all mean't something and that maybe now he can focus on being a Warden and live with the happier memories of his past life and family.  And that a burden of vengeance has been lifted off of his back.

[Milan92]

I'm starting to spare Loghain more often because Archie needs his meal and doing the DR makes me ill.

 

Besides, Alistair is much more fun as a drunk. Atleast no more "swooping is bad!".

[Jaison1986]

Besides, Alistair is much more fun as a drunk. Atleast no more "swooping is bad!".

 

He randomly says that even as an drunk actually. Drunk Alistair is the funniest thing ever.

 

[ShadowLordXII]

I actually think had Bryce lived he might've sided with Loghain and helped Anora and him to calm the dissenting Bannorn. He's known as an ardent royalist, but that doesn't automatically mean he's a Theirin nutjob. He did give the throne to Cailan because he was the royal child, but without knowing precisely where Alistair was (to say nothing of if Bryce even knows about Alistair in the first place) and in the absence of knowledge on any other potential bastard children out there... Anora's the Queen.

 

So can we just blame Howe? If Howe wasn't in the picture, things might've gone just great for Ferelden. =P

 

Unless Eamon tells him about Alistair and gives him proof that he's Maric's son (if he's smart, he'll have something), then it's possible that Bryce may have tried to claim the throne himself. As capable as Anora may be (events of the blight place this in doubt), she apparently can't have children and she as no other close relatives to inherit the throne. Loghain hasn't exactly endeared himself to anyone either considering Ostagar (I believe he made the right call, but he'll still be called out for abandoning his king) and wanting to put a bounty on the grey wardens, not to mention refuse aid from Orlais.

 

Nah, it's way to convenient to throw all of the blame on Howe. The timing of his attack was too convenient for Loghain and there's no way that he would've done it unless he knew that he'd get away with it. (Something that Loghain could have assured depending on what he planned to confront Cailan about and what he would've done about it) Maybe Loghain didn't want the Couslands killed and only delayed but Howe killed them anyway. Or maybe Loghain wanted them killed to focus more power into his inner circle. Either way, Loghain is somehow involved and not even Gaider's WOG definitively absolves Loghain of blame or involvement.

[Dabrikishaw]

Eh, bitter drunk Alister never appealed to me. the 2 times I spared Loghain, I killed him instead.

[Ryzaki]

Eh, bitter drunk Alister never appealed to me. the 2 times I spared Loghain, I killed him instead.

 

Neither option appeals to me. I just harden him and throw him at Anora.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nah, it's way to convenient to throw all of the blame on Howe. The timing of his attack was too convenient for Loghain and there's no way that he would've done it unless he knew that he'd get away with it.

He keeps politically sensitive prisoners in his own home, including at least two of whom (Irminric and Vaughn) he was stupid to keep alive in the first place. He kidnaps and imprisons Vaughn under the guise of helping him and gives out that he was killed by those Howe wanted to save him from, which at the very best you could expect to cast doubt on his competence as a helper and at worst looks suspicious. He embezzles silver from the treasury in time of war. And you're assuming he'd act rationally as far as the Couslands?

[ShadowLordXII]

He keeps politically sensitive prisoners in his own home, including at least two of whom (Irminric and Vaughn) he was stupid to keep alive in the first place. He kidnaps and imprisons Vaughn under the guise of helping him and gives out that he was killed by those Howe wanted to save him from, which at the very best you could expect to cast doubt on his competence as a helper and at worst looks suspicious. He embezzles silver from the treasury in time of war. And you're assuming he'd act rationally as far as the Couslands?

 

My point is that Loghain's gain from Howe's actions are way too convenient and well-timed to have been a complete accident. Howe is a vicious monster, but he's not stupid. For Loghain to look the other way is, at best, an utter betrayal to the core ideas of Ferelden and to one of it's most loyal families and at worst, he knew it would happen ahead of time and didn't waste too much time thinking about it. Circumstances point to the latter.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

My point is that Loghain's gain from Howe's actions are way too convenient and well-timed to have been a complete accident. Howe is a vicious monster, but he's not stupid. For Loghain to look the other way is, at best, an utter betrayal to the core ideas of Ferelden and to one of it's most loyal families and at worst, he knew it would happen ahead of time and didn't waste too much time thinking about it. Circumstances point to the latter.

I'll give you the recriminations about Loghain's betrayal of Ferelden by shielding Howe, but the rest of it? What precisely does Loghain gain from Howe's massacre of Highever? As was covered above, the Couslands wouldn't necessarily have rebelled against Loghain. And so far as I can see there is no gain at all from Howe's takeover of Denerim; Vaughn shows no indication at all that he blames Loghain for his father's death, even after Loghain's right hand puts him in a position that gives him no reason at all to be generous. Also, my point with the previous post is that there's plenty of circumstantial evidence against your argument that Howe isn't stupid.

[theskymoves]

I'm not sure Bryce Cousland would have been a proponent of Loghain. He apparently shared Cailan and Eamon's more moderate stance on Orlais, and if you don't agree with Loghain about Orlais, it's hard to agree with him about anything else. :-/

[TEWR]

 

 

 

Unless Eamon tells him about Alistair and gives him proof that he's Maric's son (if he's smart, he'll have something), then it's possible that Bryce may have tried to claim the throne himself. As capable as Anora may be (events of the blight place this in doubt), she apparently can't have children and she as no other close relatives to inherit the throne. Loghain hasn't exactly endeared himself to anyone either considering Ostagar (I believe he made the right call, but he'll still be called out for abandoning his king) and wanting to put a bounty on the grey wardens, not to mention refuse aid from Orlais.

 

 

How do you know Anora can't have children? Because of the word of Eamon? Cailan had mistresses on the side (many in fact as Anora tells you) and yet you never hear that he had any bastard children of his own. It's more likely Cailan was shooting blanks if one of them must have trouble with reproduction.

 

But I can't see Bryce trying to claim the throne himself. And besides, Bryce would've been at Ostagar remember? Chances are he would've known Loghain made the right call and possibly made the entire Warden bounty thing something that didn't need to be done in the first place.

 

And as I said, if Bryce was alive he perhaps could've helped calm the waters and helped Loghain see reason. Who would you rather have as an aide if you're not going to pick your own daughter for some reason (he does claim he wants Anora to be kept out of the trouble, which is admirable if a bit stupid)? Howe, a noted slimeball who you don't really like personally or Bryce Cousland, a man well respected in his teyrnir, who knows more about politics then Howe claims to know, and so on?

 

Bryce and Anora would have perhaps helped Loghain see that they should at least accept the aid of the Orlesian Wardens and perhaps start off small for accepting troops. Bryce is no fool.

 

 

 

Nah, it's way to convenient to throw all of the blame on Howe. The timing of his attack was too convenient for Loghain and there's no way that he would've done it unless he knew that he'd get away with it. (Something that Loghain could have assured depending on what he planned to confront Cailan about and what he would've done about it) Maybe Loghain didn't want the Couslands killed and only delayed but Howe killed them anyway. Or maybe Loghain wanted them killed to focus more power into his inner circle. Either way, Loghain is somehow involved and not even Gaider's WOG definitively absolves Loghain of blame or involvement.

 

Howe's attack is on Howe's shoulders alone. That attack is something that would have necessitated weeks if not months of planning in advance. The Blight was merely a fortuitous set of circumstances that helped Howe escape the hangman's noose. He was lucky and that's it. To say Loghain "must have been in cahoots with him" is an assertion of fact without enough evidence beyond a coincidence (that granted, is suspicious but not proof positive alone) to support it.

 

Howe's main flaw is his ambition. It overrides all of his other senses. He thinks he's a great politician, but he's not. A good politician wouldn't needlessly purge a portion of the population, embezzle from the treasury for his own gain, usurp other provinces in a careless fashion, etc. The man thinks he's a great politician fueled by generations of envy at how the Howes were little more then footnotes compared to the Couslands who were always better at everything.

 

Saying he wouldn't have done something if he couldn't have gotten away with it isn't really accurate. For Howe, he'll do anything if it nets him more (perceived) power. The man probably would've sold Ferelden out to Orlais if he could strut about as the one calling the shots in the nation.