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[TEWR]

I'm not sure Bryce Cousland would have been a proponent of Loghain. He apparently shared Cailan and Eamon's more moderate stance on Orlais, and if you don't agree with Loghain about Orlais, it's hard to agree with him about anything else. :-/

 

Eh, the stance is actually not as bad as Cailan's. Cailan wanted to rush into things, while Bryce was taking it slow. They had a vacation in... Jader, IIRC and talked with the Marquis there, even getting a gift. But that's not as bad as Cailan.

 

But also consider that Bryce fought in the rebellion. He knows what happened there. Yet he's also working towards repairing relations. It's all about negotiating and, in matters such as this, starting off small to work trust into the equation.

[ShadowLordXII]

I'll give you the recriminations about Loghain's betrayal of Ferelden by shielding Howe, but the rest of it? What precisely does Loghain gain from Howe's massacre of Highever? As was covered above, the Couslands wouldn't necessarily have rebelled against Loghain. And so far as I can see there is no gain at all from Howe's takeover of Denerim; Vaughn shows no indication at all that he blames Loghain for his father's death, even after Loghain's right hand puts him in a position that gives him no reason at all to be generous. Also, my point with the previous post is that there's plenty of circumstantial evidence against your argument that Howe isn't stupid.

 

Loghain gained plenty from Howe's takeover of Denerim. He effectively controls the nation's capital and largest city which grants access to most of the resources and wealth of the country. In addition, this city is further held by a man who controls Amaranthine and Highever. Between Loghain and Howe, they now control the entirety of the northern and eastern coasts of the country. With Eamon out of the picture and Bryce dead, they would be unopposed in terms of sheer territory in comparison to the bannorn who isn't even united in one single goal (some for Loghain, some against Loghain, others against each other, etc)

 

Now Vaughn is a real ****** (I just raped your cousin and ruined your wedding, but here's some gold to go away after you've murdered through my castle guards to get to me) so I wouldn't trust him as a reliable source. Plus, he was assumably locked up for about a year while all of this took place, so his lack of information is justifiable.

 

Remember, the only reason that Howe was discovered was because the Warden happened to stumble onto his dungeon. In short, the man was only caught by sheer accident after getting away with abducting, kidnapping and murdering people for a full year. Morality aside, he was at least smart enough to cover his tracks. You've got me on the embezzling silver part, but everything else suggests that the man was capable at what he did.

 

It is possible that Howe murdering the Couslands was done completely on his own, as I've said before the circumstances are too fortuitous to have been a complete accident. But apart from the timing and Loghain's lack of reprisal against Howe, here's something else that I noticed.

 

When a Warden Cousland talks to Loghain, he makes a rather apathetic reaction to learning about the massacre as if he really didn't care. You could argue that he was busy with the battle, but wouldn't that bring out more of a reaction. Cailan was outraged and declared that he'd have Howe hanged while Loghain basically shrugs. You're trying to battle the darkspawn and now one of two teryns who commands one of the largest portions of the army, is killed by another arl in a time of war. Said arl is also missing from this crucial battle (blight or not, you don't want darkspawn in your country)

 

And all he did was shrug? Hence the possibility of involvement (how involved would vary) and considering what he did to Eamon, I wouldn't put it past him. Especially since there's more evidence to suggest that the Couslands would've opposed Loghain (and would've had strong support from a good chunk of the bannorn) or at the very least, would not have supported him.

[TEWR]

The thing is, when people talk about how Loghain should've "reprimanded Howe" it ignores completely the military threat Howe poses. During Ostagar itself Howe arrived in Denerim and took it over. When Loghain returned Howe was in control of the greater part of the Coastlands. In order to keep this territory on his side he gives Howe a position of importance, hoping to the Maker he'll prove to be useful. But he can't antagonize the man as he controls trade routes and has a hefty military weight under his command, which could potentially open up a third front. The more fronts one fights on, the less likely chances of victory (Darkspawn, Bannorn, Howe's forces).

 

Howe's supporters were many in his home region of Amaranthine. Very few stood against him. And when you take over a new territory, you tend to put people loyal to you in positions of power to oversee things.

 

Loghain never actually gave Howe command of Denerim. Howe took it for himself and Loghain had to say "Fine, go ahead (because damned if I need another problem added on to my list)"

 

Besides, even if Howe had been thrown in jail a few more power vacuums probably would've opened up.

[gottaloveme]

I'm thinking that if the Couslands had lived but all the other kerfuffle kept going - civil war etc - then Bryce would have sided with Loghain to settle the bannorn, defeat Archie and then taken Loghain to task for his abandonment of his king. I would assume that would have ended with a more objective execution than a subjective and emotional 'off with his head'.

 

If you want to have strategic 'friends' then - marry Al, kill Loghain, ask Al for title and riches (he will make you Teyrna of Gwaren). That gives you Denerim (capital/Al and Eamon); Highever (Fergus); Gwaren (Queen); and Redcliffe (Teagan). Surrounded.

[TEWR]

Personally, I prefer my own headcanon route where my DN forms a coalition with my HNM and HNF, marries Alistair to Anora (but Al sees HNF, the Chancellor, and Anora sees HNM the Teyrn of Gwaren discreetly), my DN becomes King of Orzammar, Eamon is left with Redcliffe until Teagan takes over and is ambassador to Orlais, and Loghain lives and joins the Wardens.

 

Oh yeah, and Amaranthine is under Warden control with my DN as its Warden-Commander (reluctantly, as being a king was what he felt was more important).

 

My DN led the Wardens from the origin stories against the Blight, after all.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The thing is, when people talk about how Loghain should've "reprimanded Howe" it ignores completely the military threat Howe poses.

That is a weakness in most people's ideal approaches to Howe. Not in the way I think Loghain might have handled it, though; I think he could have arranged for Howe to vanish into thin air and for his gear to slowly disperse into the black market, where the men Howe took from Vaughn would eventually find it.

[TEWR]

I like to think Loghain, fully cognizant of Howe's crimes against the Couslands and usurpation of power and just all around how he was a slimeball, was only going to let him get away with it for so long until the nation was secure and then he (Loghain) and Anora would've worked together to trick Howe and apprehend him. It's clear Howe wants to be in positions of power, not just from Denerim/Highever, but his kidnapping of certain nobility has underlying implications of adding those lands to his own beyond just the other reasons they were taken, and his command over the man who Berwick was answering to means he probably would've conveniently "forgotten" to send word to Loghain that the antidote was needed if Berwick said anything.

 

He also thinks he's a great manipulator of Loghain, which is very true, but not as far as he thinks given that Loghain wouldn't have killed his own daughter despite Howe's wishes that he do so.

 

So I imagine they would've offered Howe a position of importance and he would've taken it and they might've apprehended him while his guard was down and put him on trial for his crimes.

[KaiserShep]

Loghain can't really apprehend Howe, because he's pretty much complicit in all of the things he does, and sat on the knowledge of Howe's taking of Highever and worked with him anyway. I doubt that he and Anora combined would be clever enough to trick him into anything anyway. My preference would simply be to have his throat slit at the soonest opportunity by some assassin and spare the time that would be wasted on a trial, which would very likely be some kind of sovereign-addled sham anyway. The Warden's killing of Howe is proof enough that the vacuum of power he leaves behind is not that much of a concern either.

[Xetykins]

I can totally see Bryce Cousland becoming loghain's cheerleader with pompoms. Because "nothing" is his fault. He's the epitome of pure and goodness in ferelden.



Excuse me while I puke.

[KaiserShep]

I doubt very much that the Couslands would support either the outlawing of the Grey Wardens or the sale of elves to Tevinter slavers to fund the war effort. Loghain would have to somehow keep all of these things secret, but there's no really good way to do this. Of course, Howe could have been the mastermind behind all this crap, but I'm assuming that he's alive in this scenario, but simply did not betray the Couslands.

[TEWR]

I doubt very much that the Couslands would support either the outlawing of the Grey Wardens or the sale of elves to Tevinter slavers to fund the war effort. Loghain would have to somehow keep all of these things secret, but there's no really good way to do this. Of course, Howe could have been the mastermind behind all this crap, but I'm assuming that he's alive in this scenario, but simply did not betray the Couslands.

 

That wasn't what I said at all. I said that the Couslands would support Anora and Loghain, as they're ardent royalists (but no Theirin would be in sight because Cailan's dead and Alistair might not be something Bryce even knows about, let alone how his whereabouts would be unknown post-Ostagar), and if they were there the things that happened later on (like when Howe was in power, or the need to outlaw the Wardens) might not have happened at all because of their diplomacy and finding solutions to the problems that didn't come with their own problems.

 

Think of it this way. If a respected man as Bryce Cousland had thrown in with Loghain and Anora, that would in turn shift viewpoints on Ostagar. It wouldn't be held against him. Many of the nobles do accept Loghain's reasoning (it was a lost battle, Cailan a glory-seeking hound, etc.) but just as many still have questions concerning it. Bryce would've been there and would have seen firsthand how doomed a battle it was (assuming Loghain's plan wouldn't have changed to accommodate the new reinforcements, depending on how large they were).

 

If the two Teyrnirs ended up saying the battle was lost, with the Queen on their side, the nobility might not be so rankled (in large part due to Teagan's comments). Teagan might even have accepted it, because Bryce is so well-respected in the Landsmeet and is a war veteran. Alistair might also have accepted it, maybe even if the Warden was a HN, simply because of Bryce (or not).

 

If Alistair did appear somewhere down the line as he does in-game, I don't know how Bryce would've responded if he had allied with Anora. He's an ardent royalist, not a traditionalist. He may have stayed with Anora, or advocated both because of the immense potential it has to keep the peace and lead to prosperity. Or he might not have wanted Alistair on the throne, if he's got a thing against bastards.

 

And although Loghain knows Alistair is Maric's child, there's no real proof of that to be found beyond hearsay and conjecture. Loghain even calls it out, saying that they have no way of knowing and that it's claimed that Alistair may have Theirin blood (it's a bid to get the nobles to side against Alistair and Eamon, but it'd be a pointless one if Eamon actually had proof).

[TEWR]

I can totally see Bryce Cousland becoming loghain's cheerleader with pompoms. Because "nothing" is his fault. He's the epitome of pure and goodness in ferelden.



Excuse me while I puke.

 

Lovely. Strawmen arguments.

 

Excuse me while I laugh at it, as I really don't care for them.

[TEWR]

The Warden's killing of Howe is proof enough that the vacuum of power he leaves behind is not that much of a concern either.

 

Politically the Warden killing Howe should actually come with consequences as it's a very dangerous thing. Wardens killing nobles in their own homes with impunity, when this was the very thing they were exiled for in the past (rebelling against the crown). Circumstances were different of course, and one could argue self-defense, but we'd be the only ones potentially claiming that because we're the only ones who make it out.

 

Politically, Loghain can't kill us by the time of the Landsmeet because of our importance. If he did, it would be a mark against him. In the same vein, this should apply to Howe as well because of his importance.

 

Howe may not be loved and was certainly deserving of death, but what we did was not a proper means to go about it as it's answering one man's breaking of the law with lawbreaking of our own. I would've arrested him and put him on trial before the seneschal.

 

What you say is true, but only for the moment of his death. His death prior to it all could've led to Highever's nobility warring over the teyrnir, especially in the absence of a Cousland heir (and even then no one would know one was alive). With the Civil War, old grudges were brought to a head and the Bannorn was so scattered in their goals (for Loghain, against Loghain, for themselves, etc.) that it would've just been chaos. But the Landsmeet was called to stop the fighting and it works, thereby any absent nobility would fall to the crown to distribute in the end.

 

That said, Howe's death should've had a greater impact on Awakening, considering very few nobles actually stood against his plans and many were with him. Esmerelle's little "plot" is actually a very sad and pathetic little thing.

 

She's a bann. With other banns at her side. And she's not going to wage a military campaign but rather go for a paltry attempt at assassination in person? Try poison if you want something subtle.

[gottaloveme]

As fem Cousland I was kind of pleased when I asked Cailan what punishment Howe would receive and was told he will hang. That snake, being judged and sentenced by others (peers?) and then having to walk out to the gallows, anticipating his own death, seeing the noose, hearing the crowd. Chopping his head off was letting him off easy and yes, putting the warden at risk - legally, emotionally, strategically etc.

[Mike3207]

Yeah, I think any noble protections Howe might have had sort of went away after he slaughtered the Couslands in their home.That, and Howe's not the sort anyone's going to miss.

[Xetykins]

Lovely. Strawmen arguments.

Excuse me while I laugh at it, as I really don't care for them.

Argument? O.o its like agreeing with the points you've been bending over back to front to make :-) where everything is not his fault.
Tsk tsk.

Anyway. Time for a total bsn lockdown for me. Because even if I only lurk here, I always get tempted to go to inquisition pages and get spoiled. See you in oct.

[KaiserShep]

 

That said, Howe's death should've had a greater impact on Awakening, considering very few nobles actually stood against his plans and many were with him. Esmerelle's little "plot" is actually a very sad and pathetic little thing.

 

She's a bann. With other banns at her side. And she's not going to wage a military campaign but rather go for a paltry attempt at assassination in person? Try poison if you want something subtle.

 

This is true, and I would have enjoyed battling the army of a bann. The Warden's already gone through scores of goons and vermin, so what's a few more?

[Mike3207]

I doubt many of the banns have much of a standing army at the time of the Landsmeet.The combination of the civil war and the darkspawn would have done quite a job on the amount of forces they could expect to field.That's likely why they turned to espionage in Awakening.

[ShadowLordXII]

Lovely. Strawmen arguments.

 

Excuse me while I laugh at it, as I really don't care for them.

 

It's just sarcasm, no harm was intended.

 

For the sake of curiosity, why are you so ardent of a Loghain defender? Not that I hate the guy at all (he's one of the game's best parts in fact and this debate proves why), but even you have to admit that some of Loghain was doomed to fail. Not just because he was against the wardens during a blight, but also because of his own personality flaws and his already listed actions that betray the ideas that his country stand for if not outright betray the country itself.

[TEWR]

It's just sarcasm, no harm was intended.

 

For the sake of curiosity, why are you so ardent of a Loghain defender? Not that I hate the guy at all (he's one of the game's best parts in fact and this debate proves why), but even you have to admit that some of Loghain was doomed to fail. Not just because he was against the wardens during a blight, but also because of his own personality flaws and his already listed actions that betray the ideas that his country stand for if not outright betray the country itself.

 

Maybe so, but years of actually encountering such arguments where they were serious have led me to be very bitter and skeptical of other people saying much the same thing.

 

I defend Loghain because whether or not all of his actions were right (banning the Wardens wasn't, his approach to the banns was horribly handled, etc.) I think he was still acting sensibly at the time more often then not. He wanted the nation to unite under his banner in the face of a common threat and not fall victim to petty infighting.

 

Sensible.

 

He wanted the Circle on his side because the Mages were the best weapon against the Darkspawn, particularly when the Chantry and Templars only sent seven (or 8) mages.

 

Sensible.

 

He wanted the Dwarves on his side, because they've had the most experience fighting Darkspawn.

 

Sensible.

 

Does he always go about it the right way? No. Does he have the best intentions for the nation? Yes. Is he put in such a position that it kinda bites him in the ass and leaves him with his legs attached to his waist, no ass in place? Sure. Especially with Howe in place, who tends to be the instigator of a lot of crimes.

 

But he's certainly a great character with a lot more to every one of his actions then "LOL bad man is bad." Course, half of why he's great is because Bioware did it accidentally because you see a lot of glaring inconsistencies or them not bothering to go the full gamut of who he is (their original ideas for Loghain were utter ****, where he would've been so grossly incompetent and mustache-twirlingly evil I wouldn't even want to defend him).

 

I don't think all of what he did was right, but there's certainly more to his actions then what people reduce them to which is why I defend him. Especially if one looks at Thedosian history in full.

 

So yes, as you said his own personality and some of his actions were not the best course of action in the long run. That much I've never denied and in fact have usually stated so. But that doesn't mean they're without their reasons. I only argue those reasons in the hope that people will say "Okay, I see where he's coming from, and I kinda can't hold it completely against him now."

 

Also, I get bored or procrastinate too much from writing my book.

[TEWR]

Yeah, I think any noble protections Howe might have had sort of went away after he slaughtered the Couslands in their home.That, and Howe's not the sort anyone's going to miss.

 

One wrong act does not another make right.

 

Yes, Howe's a thoroughbred bastard (though he is missed by his Amaranthine nobles. Mostly), but that's like saying if you know where a murderer lives and he hasn't done anything wrong at that moment you're entitled to kill him.

 

But of course, Bioware has a disturbing penchant for glorifying vengeance and making it seem like it's the right course of action.

 

 

I doubt many of the banns have much of a standing army at the time of the Landsmeet.The combination of the civil war and the darkspawn would have done quite a job on the amount of forces they could expect to field.That's likely why they turned to espionage in Awakening.

 

Remember that Amaranthine's nobility were on Loghain's side (mostly) through their support of Howe. In Awakening, you're tasked with the distribution of the soldiers and though they're not enough to properly devote to doing everything, you can still do a lot with what you have by trying to protect everything.

 

Also, conscription. Soldiers were out recruiting the people in force (the term press gang used in-game is historically more suited for naval matters).

[KaiserShep]

In fairness, had Howe not bothered to seal Anora in with a mage's help, the encounter would not have been necessary and would probably not have happened, though that would have left the people in the dungeon at his mercy. In any case, he doesn't leave the Warden any choice anyway. As for vengeance, I love a good revenge tale myself. In the Warden's position, I'd kill Howe no matter what if the opportunity presented itself, because f*ck 'im.

[ShadowLordXII]

Maybe so, but years of actually encountering such arguments where they were serious have led me to be very bitter and skeptical of other people saying much the same thing.

 

I defend Loghain because whether or not all of his actions were right (banning the Wardens wasn't, his approach to the banns was horribly handled, etc.) I think he was still acting sensibly at the time more often then not. He wanted the nation to unite under his banner in the face of a common threat and not fall victim to petty infighting.

 

Sensible.

 

He wanted the Circle on his side because the Mages were the best weapon against the Darkspawn, particularly when the Chantry and Templars only sent seven (or 8) mages.

 

Sensible.

 

He wanted the Dwarves on his side, because they've had the most experience fighting Darkspawn.

 

Sensible.

 

Does he always go about it the right way? No. Does he have the best intentions for the nation? Yes. Is he put in such a position that it kinda bites him in the ass and leaves him with his legs attached to his waist, no ass in place? Sure. Especially with Howe in place, who tends to be the instigator of a lot of crimes.

 

But he's certainly a great character with a lot more to every one of his actions then "LOL bad man is bad." Course, half of why he's great is because Bioware did it accidentally because you see a lot of glaring inconsistencies or them not bothering to go the full gamut of who he is (their original ideas for Loghain were utter ****, where he would've been so grossly incompetent and mustache-twirlingly evil I wouldn't even want to defend him).

 

I don't think all of what he did was right, but there's certainly more to his actions then what people reduce them to which is why I defend him. Especially if one looks at Thedosian history in full.

 

So yes, as you said his own personality and some of his actions were not the best course of action in the long run. That much I've never denied and in fact have usually stated so. But that doesn't mean they're without their reasons. I only argue those reasons in the hope that people will say "Okay, I see where he's coming from, and I kinda can't hold it completely against him now."

 

Also, I get bored or procrastinate too much from writing my book.

 

All fair points. Though I'd argue that he was still the catalyst of his own downfall.

 

Understanding a character's perspective and motives shouldn't automatically equal vindicating that character of all wrong-doing. Hence why I'd see him as a tragic character, a man who really wanted to save his country, but was hindered and ultimately doomed by his fatal flaw of pride in his own legend. Thus he became very thing that he had liberated Ferelden from.

 

Plus, anything about his perspective or that would generate sympathy only emerges after you spare him. And we've already talked about the convolution that made the warden-loghain scenario less believable than the writers intended.

[CrypticCobra]

Well If you kill Loghain and  playing with a female noble(not a mage) then you have the option of becoming Queen if your approval rating is high enough with Alastair. Who doesn't want a Warden ruling over Fereldan?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

In fairness, had Howe not bothered to seal Anora in with a mage's help, the encounter would not have been necessary and would probably not have happened, though that would have left the people in the dungeon at his mercy.

It might not have been necessary anyway. Warriors who can learn Cleanse Area, and mages who can learn Dispel Magic? If this was a tabletop game Howe would probably survive half the time all else being equal. (If only because I've never met a DM who allowed save-scumming.)