3201 réponses à ce sujet

[wiccame]

Regardless of why he did what he did, he still committed treason, regicide and weakened and threw the country into civil war on the brink of a blight.  Any other person would hang for that, he is no exception.

[Chashan]

Well If you kill Loghain and  playing with a female noble(not a mage) then you have the option of becoming Queen if your approval rating is high enough with Alastair. Who doesn't want a Warden ruling over Fereldan?

 

Those who'd think this jeopardizes their neutrality-policy, perhaps...? In case further relations with 'stair are not pursued or a Mr Cousland-Warden does not express ambitions towards the throne himself, anyway, in which case such thoughts may not be on the respective Wardens' minds anyhow.

 

Several pages ago, it was brought up by another user - 'twas you, Riverdaleswithflash, I believe - that "taking out an ally" in the case of 'stair's execution would go over badly with nobles assembled.

Anora's reasoning for wanting that potential fuse for further crises down the line removed aside, this could be seen as the exact opposite: a clear message that the Wardens disentangle themselves from any potential power struggles in Ferelden, reasserting their non-alignment to any parties there. Which naturally is of importance if we think of Dryden's ill-fated rebellion in Ferelden.

Not to mention that capitally punishing desertion, which 'stair simply walking out can also be viewed as, may be seen as only appropriate. Think the deserter in the cage in Ostagar in the prologue, which suggests that the general understanding is that forfeiting military duty comes with drastic consequences.

 

I already expressed my strong disapproval of the way 'stair acts up at the Landsmeet in case Loghain is to be forcibly conscripted, even when clear arrangements are made to leave the throne to Anora and him even encouraging that, and won't deny there is that for me personally as well. Yet, different arguments can be made there as well.
 

[LeeAmnesia]

Honestly, there isn't anyone I'd kill if they had the chops to be a Warden. In such a dire situation, any warden is a good warden. Just adding one more person with the power to help save the continent is a bolster to your ranks and a boon to your cause. I've both killed and spared Loghain multiple times, but if I could only do it once is spare him. My only regret about the Landsmeet is that I couldn't let Dog champion Alistair.

[dragonflight288]

Regardless of why he did what he did, he still committed treason, regicide and weakened and threw the country into civil war on the brink of a blight.  Any other person would hang for that, he is no exception.

 

So by this logic, every single person, Teagan included, who was at that Landsmeet and decided Civil War with Loghain was preferable to fighting the darkspawn and uniting are also equally guilty and thus deserve to hang as well, as they are also guilty of treason against the crown of Ferelden, the already sitting queen, Anora. 

[Alehazar]

Loghain's zeal and love for his country are admirable -and his (understandable) hatred for Orlais, gives him a solid reason for turning on Caillain and the Fereldan Grey wardens; after all, they both want to bring Orlesian Wardens to Ferelden to help out against -what could or could not be- the next Blight. That must have been a dagger right through Loghain's heart. So, his burning hatred for anything Orlesian blinds him to the other threat that attempts to destroy Ferelden. It's almost as if Loghain were saying, I'd rather see Ferelden destroyed, than let Orlais waltz in and claim it.

I also think that Loghain's assessment of Caillain's motivation, as to why he assembled his army to beat back the Darkspawn threat, is pretty close to the mark. Caillan seems a bit too enthusiastic about going to war; a romanticised image of heroism and victory.

Loghain is trying to keep things in a more realistic perspective. Yet even the Teyrn of Gwaren has a blind spot: Orlais.

In Duncan's mind, everything is crystalclear; he can feel the Darkspawn and the presence of an Achdemon somewhere; all that is required is to quell this Blight, nip it in the bud if possible. Just before he gets his head chopped of by a Darkspawn Greataxe, he realises why Loghain failed to respond to the signal fire of Ishal.

And still, if you take a look to everything Loghain had planned out should Caillain persist in bringing in the Orlesian twits.

From the Human Noble Origin we know that House Cousland is probably the most powerful Noble House in all Ferelden; Bryce Cousland's voice could very well mean a lot of trouble after Caillain's demise. Should he demand an inquest, or suggest another course of action than Loghain, Ferelden's general could be in for more trouble than he bargained for. So Bryce Cousland is removed from the equation. (Loghain even states to the Warden in Ostagar, that he heard about Caillan's promise. So he acknowledges he is aware of the events that took place in Highever and that Arl Howe was involved -since Loghain is likely the one who orchestrated the coup, this is implied. This should have been exploited during the Landsmeet, when my HN is accused of murdering Howe in his home. Whatever Howe might have done, he should have been brought before the Seneshal. Right! Howe murders the Cousland Family and Loghain knew and in all likelihood planned it; was Howe brought before the Seneshal? Howe sells Elves from the Alienage into slavery, with the seal of approval by Loghain -Caladrius has a document that implicates Loghain- and yet Howe is not brought before the Seneshal.) Loghain has Arl Eamon poisoned, another powerful royalist who could've stopped Loghain's bid for power after Ostagar. In short, Loghain is carefully taking out potential key players -or more aptly described, possible stumbling blocks. He even struck a deal with Uldred, so that the Circle of Magi would be in his pocket.

Loghain's desire to see Ferelden burn, before it'd ever fall into Orlesian hands again -and all the countermeasures he employed (before or after the Ostagar massacre)- constitute reason enough for me to see him executed.

Should he've been given a chance to redeem himself as a Warden?

Maybe.

But seeing how I judge from the perspective of one of the two surviving Fereldan Grey Wardens -who are persecuted and thwarted every step of the way in their attempts to rally Ferelden against the Darkspawn- I really have no inclination whatsoever to let Loghain off the hook like that. If he'd be made a Warden, that would leave Riordan and Loghain to face down the Archdemon. Like Alistair, I would walk away. The man who engineered the coup d'état, and everything connected to it, a Warden? I somehow doubt that even Duncan would applaud that suggestion.

(And should Anora have sided with her father at the Landsmeet, she's damn lucky it is not my Warden's call to decide her fate; lock her into the tower? Fat chance!)

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

(And should Anora have sided with her father at the Landsmeet, she's damn lucky it is not my Warden's call to decide her fate; lock her into the tower? Fat chance!)

Alistair's motivation on that bit (at least if he's hardened) is that someone needs to rule if he dies in battle before he had time to find another heir. It is also heavily implied (again, if he's hardened) that her fate is sealed the second you either do the DR or insist on personally doing the US. (Though it is possible for her to be in this position despite siding with you in the voting.)

 

If Alistair's not hardened, and imprisons her reluctantly? She probably still dies, though probably in a way that can be miconstrued as an accident so that Alistair isn't struck with (honestly undeserved) remorse.

[Darkly Tranquil]

 

From the Human Noble Origin we know that House Cousland is probably the most powerful Noble House in all Ferelden; Bryce Cousland's voice could very well mean a lot of trouble after Caillain's demise. Should he demand an inquest, or suggest another course of action than Loghain, Ferelden's general could be in for more trouble than he bargained for. So Bryce Cousland is removed from the equation. (Loghain even states to the Warden in Ostagar, that he heard about Caillan's promise. So he acknowledges he is aware of the events that took place in Highever and that Arl Howe was involved -since Loghain is likely the one who orchestrated the coup, this is implied. This should have been exploited during the Cousland Family and Loghain knew and in all likelihood planned it; was Howe brought before the Seneshal? Howe sells Elves from the Alienage into slavery, with the seal of approval by Loghain -Caladrius has a document that implicates Loghain- and yet Howe is not brought before the Seneshal.) Loghain has Arl Eamon poisoned, another powerful royalist who could've stopped Loghain's bid for power after Ostagar. In short, Loghain is carefully taking out potential key players -or more aptly described, possible stumbling blocks. He even struck a deal with Uldred, so that the Circle of Magi would be in his pocket.

 

I'm pretty sure David Gaider has stated that Loghain did not know about the massacre at Highever prior to the event, just as he did not know about Cailan and Celene's letters (which you find out if you take him along in Return to Ostagar). I suspect its one of those things that is muddied by the changes made to large elements of the plot relating to Loghain during production which created these inconsistencies. Your explanation of a coup d'etat was probably part of the original plan, but for production/time/cost reasons it probably got cut like many other things they wanted to do.

 

Besides which, there is little evidence that Loghain was any kind of Machiavellian genius who could pull off such a scheme. Everything we know about Loghain paints him as a straight shooter with a serious disdain for politics. The only way I can see such a scheme happening is if it were masterminded by either Howe or Anora, who are both devious political minds. I could believe that either or both of them could play on Loghain's Orlais paranoia to convince him to betray Cailan "for the good of Ferelden". But as pertains to the final version of Origins, its been stated that Loghain did not "plan" the massacre.

[ShadowLordXII]

I'm pretty sure David Gaider has stated that Loghain did not know about the massacre at Highever prior to the event, just as he did not know about Cailan and Celene's letters (which you find out if you take him along in Return to Ostagar). I suspect its one of those things that is muddied by the changes made to large elements of the plot relating to Loghain during production which created these inconsistencies. Your explanation of a coup d'etat was probably part of the original plan, but for production/time/cost reasons it probably got cut like many other things they wanted to do.

 

Besides which, there is little evidence that Loghain was any kind of Machiavellian genius who could pull off such a scheme. Everything we know about Loghain paints him as a straight shooter with a serious disdain for politics. The only way I can see such a scheme happening is if it were masterminded by either Howe or Anora, who are both devious political minds. I could believe that either or both of them could play on Loghain's Orlais paranoia to convince him to betray Cailan "for the good of Ferelden". But as pertains to the final version of Origins, its been stated that Loghain did not "plan" the massacre.

 

Again, Gaider did not "directly" say that Loghain wasn't involved. All the quote said was that Howe did many things on his own initiative which made him and Loghain strange-bedfellows. Which is pretty ambiguous, it could mean that he was involved or that he wasn't.

 

I'd argue that he's related to the massacre in similar manner to Tywin's relationship to the Red Wedding. Loghain may have told Howe to delay Bryce in preparation for his confrontation with Cailan, but the murders were entirely Howe's idea due to his ambition. But this wouldn't keep Loghain's hands completely clean either. Plus, it worked out in the short-term since Howe was positioned to help Loghain solidify his control over the entirety of the Northern and Western coasts of Ferelden.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Again, Gaider did not "directly" say that Loghain wasn't involved. All the quote said was that Howe did many things on his own initiative which made him and Loghain strange-bedfellows. Which is pretty ambiguous, it could mean that he was involved or that he wasn't.

 

I'd argue that he's related to the massacre in similar manner to Tywin's relationship to the Red Wedding. Loghain may have told Howe to delay Bryce in preparation for his confrontation with Cailan, but the murders were entirely Howe's idea due to his ambition. But this wouldn't keep Loghain's hands completely clean either. Plus, it worked out in the short-term since Howe was positioned to help Loghain solidify his control over the entirety of the Northern and Western coasts of Ferelden.

Ah, fair enough. I stand corrected, I was just going off memory.

 

However, I still stand by my view that it seems fairly out of character for Loghain to engage in such political chicanery. He doesn't mince words in his dealings with anyone, and pretty much calls it like he sees it and damn the consequences, so deception of the kind that takes place is hard to reconcile with his character; they seem far more like the work of Howe or Anora (maybe I have an unfairly low opinion of her?). Even the poisoning of Eamon (which, IIRC Loghain admitted to) seems odd for him, and seems doubly peculiar given Loghain didn't know about Cailan's plan to divorce Anora. I've never quite understood why Loghain was so keen to eliminate Eamon if he did not know that and he did not plan to kill Cailan in advance of the battle at Ostagar unless he was planning to depose Cailan beforehand.

 

Then again, there are so many elements of the whole thing that seem strange or contradictory. I simply write most of it off to the changes made to the story during production.

[TEWR]

Regarding Gaider's quote, could we get the thread in question where he said that on the old BSN, where only Bioware posts are visible? Not that I'm foggy on it as I know what he said there, but I'd like to have the actual thread where I can see all of his posts in my bookmarks and not have to slog through other peoples' posts and topics to find it and have my computer lag. The new BSN has actually made things a lot worse in terms of finding old topics. Links people give for the old thread don't go to the actual thread, but sadly to forum.bioware.com and just leave it at that.

 

And the search feature sucks. Doesn't matter how specific I am for a thread, it apparently "can't find it".

[LiquidLyrium]

I still think that Alistair should have at least waited to see if Loghain died in the Joining before storming off in a huff. I can understand why Loghain did what he did but... ehhh it wasn't really the right time to try and secure Ferelden's independence from Orlais. He nearly lost the whole country because of his refusal to focus on the Blight. Plus the whole slavery thing is extremely distasteful, so I usually off him.

[Tremere]

You know... Even if I wanted to believe that Loghain's call at Ostagar was based on "a general's assessment of the battle", his actions in the aftermath are what seal his fate with my Warden. He'd already sealed the border with Orlais, preventing troops and Wardens from entering, so what would be the purpose of assassinating the only remaining Wardens in Ferelden, except to keep them quiet about what happened at Ostagar? More importantly, what occurred at Ostagar had already been made public, which is evident by the fact that members of the bannorn knew about it. Hell, even the gossips in Lothering made mention of it. In addition, Howe's comments in the cut-scene, regarding the surviving Wardens, makes it pretty clear that Loghain had plans in this direction all along. (Howe: "There are Wardens who survived Ostagar. How, I don't know, but they will act against you.") This all seems to provide a pretty clear indication that abandoning the field was not a situational decision, but a calculated contrivance. Selling Elves into slavery... Documentation and his own (tacit) admission serve as proof. Duping Isolde and having Eamon poisoned (whether to kill or deter) is evidence that he wanted him out of the way. His indifference to the demise of the Couslands, doesn't necessarily imply that he knew of the events in Highever, but clearly he wasn't bothered by them as Cailan was. What's more telling and at the very least highly suspect, is leaving the man he knew was responsible for those things in a position of power as well as having him as an adviser (regardless of his long term intentions). His proclamation to Uldred (whether real or contrived) to free the Circle of the chantry, almost destroyed it. In essence, every move he made (regardless of his intentions), leads to the conclusion that hubris was at the core of his decision-making and events were only "in the best interest of Ferelden" so long as they met his perception of reality.

The arguments that include, "perhaps","if", "apparently" and the like are irrelevant in the sense that there's no way to prove them (in-game). Fandom's contrived motivations and WoG, notwithstanding. Whatever one thinks of Loghain, I think it's fair to say that, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." applies in regards to what he was thinking. Protecting Ferelden may have been his intention, but he sure made a right mess of it and only hubris made him incapable of seeing that. As one can't use ignorance as an excuse for not following the law, one should likewise not be able to lean on good intentions as justification for unjust acts. With that in mind, there is no way Loghain survives any of my Warden's assessments. Not once... Not ever. One thing I will admit is I agree that his character was well written. I say this because just like in the movies with great villains, I absolutely detest him in every way, no matter how many times I play the game... And it's not the kind of loathing you have towards a character you might be able to sympathize with.

[Mike3207]

Regarding Gaider's quote, could we get the thread in question where he said that on the old BSN, where only Bioware posts are visible? Not that I'm foggy on it as I know what he said there, but I'd like to have the actual thread where I can see all of his posts in my bookmarks and not have to slog through other peoples' posts and topics to find it and have my computer lag. The new BSN has actually made things a lot worse in terms of finding old topics. Links people give for the old thread don't go to the actual thread, but sadly to forum.bioware.com and just leave it at that.
 
And the search feature sucks. Doesn't matter how specific I am for a thread, it apparently "can't find it".

Post #421.

http://forum.bioware...mac-tir/page-17

[emaughan]

Kill him. I did DAO and won, did it again failed cause I didnt have alistair. ( yeah, you lose Alistair if you spare him  )

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

You know... Even if I wanted to believe that Loghain's call at Ostagar was based on "a general's assessment of the battle", his actions in the aftermath are what seal his fate with my Warden.

Once again: entirely fair.

[Tremere]

I'd like to make one final point while I digress (slightly) from the original question. With everything that I think I understand about the military, it is an advisers duty to inform his superiors of all military options and eventualities as best he/she can determine them. It's not an exact science, but they have the responsibility to keep their superiors informed. In the case of Loghain and Cailan, we can conclude that by the nature of their relationship, Loghain had every opportunity to tell Cailan exactly what he thought of his vainglorious view of defeating the darkspawn. Likewise, he had every opportunity and the responsibility to the king (and his own men) to say that he would not risk his men to serve the king's vanity. Sure, he may have been relieved of duty or perhaps detained, but even with that, he would have had his honor and more importantly, his integrity intact. With those, whether he was right or wrong, he could have done much of what he did without much of anyone raising a ruckus. The need to assassinate anyone would have been completely unnecessary and funds to support the war against the darkspawn would have been a non-issue as the nobility (in the event of Cailan's death) would have undoubtedly fallen into step with him. Hell, depending on how the battle turned out, he might have even garnered support for a coup. (Not that I'm defending that, but it would have been understandable under certain circumstances.) At the very least he would have still been a viable figure in Ferelden's defense.

 

Of course, all the above is theory and supposition which isn't reflected in the game. More specifically, Loghain walked the path of treachery and for that, he never survives the Landsmeet with my Warden and he never will. The smirk on his face after sounding the retreat (amongst all his other misdeeds) told me all I needed to know.

[wiccame]

So by this logic, every single person, Teagan included, who was at that Landsmeet and decided Civil War with Loghain was preferable to fighting the darkspawn and uniting are also equally guilty and thus deserve to hang as well, as they are also guilty of treason against the crown of Ferelden, the already sitting queen, Anora. 

Loghain held a very high power of command. He was trusted to lead the kings army, he was entrusted to a task vital to the battle plans and he turned tail and ran, taking the army with him. He set in motion the chaos that followed and he alone was responsible for that. Anything that happened after that was a result of HIS actions. He took the throne from Anora and assumed the position of leader, it was not official and he was not acting for the crown, he was acting for himself. So there wasn't any treason being commited by Teagan or anyone else.

[Jaison1986]

Loghain held a very high power of command. He was trusted to lead the kings army, he was entrusted to a task vital to the battle plans and he turned tail and ran, taking the army with him. He set in motion the chaos that followed and he alone was responsible for that. Anything that happened after that was a result of HIS actions. He took the throne from Anora and assumed the position of leader, it was not official and he was not acting for the crown, he was acting for himself. So there wasn't any treason being commited by Teagan or anyone else.

 

I believe completely otherwise. It was Teagan's fault and the others noble just as much as Loghain's. This is so senseless, people prefer Loghain to sacrifice his soldiers pointlessly in a battle with no victory rather then retreating and at least sparing some soldiers. And also there is one thing to consider, that if the banns had followed him instead of starting civil war, he would have never captured and imprisioned political enemies nor have the need to sell those elves into slavery to fund his war effort, and yes, technically, it was treason, the civil war started while Anora was STILL in power. And he sure is dedicated to his duty, because if he was "only to himself", he would have ran away from the wardens the first chance he got, but no, he sticks to his duties to the bitter end, unlike people like Alistair and Anders.

[wiccame]

I believe completely otherwise. It was Teagan's fault and the others noble just as much as Loghain's. This is so senseless, people prefer Loghain to sacrifice his soldiers pointlessly in a battle with no victory rather then retreating and at least sparing some soldiers. And also there is one thing to consider, that if the banns had followed him instead of starting civil war, he would have never captured and imprisioned political enemies nor have the need to sell those elves into slavery to fund his war effort, and yes, technically, it was treason, the civil war started while Anora was STILL in power. And he sure is dedicated to his duty, because if he was "only to himself", he would have ran away from the wardens the first chance he got, but no, he sticks to his duties to the bitter end, unlike people like Alistair and Anders.

The thing is with Loghain, is he had NO intention of going into that battle. His, 'Yes Cailan, glory for everyone', with that look he gave was pretty telling what he had in mind and as Tremere said that look as he retreated. 

Remember it was his battle plan. He put himself in the position of leading the flanking army. He also had control of the tower and the beacon, and WHEN if at all it would be lit. If it didn't light then he could claim he didn't know it was time to go in, if it was lit late, he then could claim the battle was lost and retreating was the only option (which he did).  

He didn't want Cailan allying with Orlais, he had already had planned for Eamon to be poisoned, so he couldn't support Cailan when Loghain confronted him about it.  So he already had plans to oppose him.

Cailan going into battle and dying would have been an unexpected opportunity to put an end to any allying with Orlais, without him having to publicly oppose him.

 

Anora wasn't in power, he took it from her.

He was dedicated to his PLAN that's why he didn't back down. He wanted power to make sure that things went according to his plan. I have no doubt he believed it was best for the country. But it does not excuse anything he did.

[theskymoves]

Excerpts from the Politics of Ferelden codex entry

 

Unlike other monarchies, power does not descend from our throne. Rather, it rises from the support of the freeholders.

 

The king is, in essence, the most powerful of the teyrns. Although Denerim was originally the teyrnir of the king, it has since been reduced to an arling, as the king's domain is now all of Ferelden. But even the king's power must come from the banns.
 

Nowhere is this more evident than during the Landsmeet, an annual council for which all the nobles of Ferelden gather, held for almost three thousand years except odd interruptions during Blights and invasions. The sight of a king asking for--and working to win--the support of "lesser" men is a source of constant wonder to foreign ambassadors.

 

And from the Green Ronin Dragon Age RPG Set 1 Player's Guide:

 

At the top of the noble structure sits the King of Ferelden, whose court is in the capital city, Denerim. The King is entrusted with advancing the interests of all the people of Ferelden in both war and trade. While the King can suggest new laws for the land, the “King’s Law” is in fact generally dictated by precedent and voted on by the Landsmeet, a legislative body made up of all the nobles of Ferelden that meets once a season within Denerim to deliberate on issues and bring grievances before the King. Not all of the nobility can regularly make the trip to Denerim, so many send a proxy, either a younger family member or a trusted commoner, to vote in their place.

 

IMO, the civil war resulted from the Mac Tirs forgetting (or ignoring) how their own government was supposed to work. 

[dragonflight288]

Loghain held a very high power of command. He was trusted to lead the kings army, he was entrusted to a task vital to the battle plans and he turned tail and ran, taking the army with him. He set in motion the chaos that followed and he alone was responsible for that. Anything that happened after that was a result of HIS actions. He took the throne from Anora and assumed the position of leader, it was not official and he was not acting for the crown, he was acting for himself. So there wasn't any treason being commited by Teagan or anyone else.

 

I'm going to have to take this apart piece by piece to make sens of this. 

 

Loghain held a very high power of command. He was trusted to lead the kings army, he was entrusted to a task vital to the battle plans and he turned tail and ran, taking the army with him.

 

If you recall, part of his plan was to keep Cailan off the front lines, draw the darkspawn in without charging willy nilly, and then flank the darkspawn after they were committed. What actually happened was Cailan insisted to be on the front lines and let the Wardens do the bulk of the work, something Loghain constantly said was foolhardy as Cailan was living in a fantasy land of legends and thoughts of glory and wasn't dwelling in reality, led a charge out of their defensive line so he and his men were flanked from all sides, fired only a single volley of arrows, and threw away his mabari support troops. Add in that the size of the darkspawn horde was significantly greater than either man anticipated. In the overview of the battle after he retreats, we see the darkspawn horde is still pouring out of the wilds and Cailan and his men, who are mainly Grey Wardens, are surrounded and are being overwhelmed. 

 

Also, the tower beacon was late. At the moment the beacon was lit, the battle at that point simply could not be won, based on a multitude of factors, Cailan's idiocy and love of glory being a key one, but the darkspawn horde being so large being another. Had he charged, all he would have done is led all his men to their deaths and Ferelden wouldn't have any army to fight the darkspawn with, Cailan and Duncan would still be dead, and the game would be quite short. 

 

 He set in motion the chaos that followed and he alone was responsible for that.

 

So the man who takes his army and gathers the nobility in an attempt to get them to unite and face the darkspawn quickly, is somehow to blame for many of those same lords deciding it would be a better idea to fight him and each other rather than fight the darkspawn? He somehow magically made all of Ferelden's nobility want to fight each other?

 

To be fair, he was quite abrupt, and his demands for more men probably sounded like he was ordering them around like an Orlesian would, but Teagan is just as much to blame for the chaos there as he is. 

 

Anything that happened after that was a result of HIS actions. 

 

So...the Circle, which was originally going to align with him until Wynne showed up, and Uldred becoming desperate and turning into an abomination is entirely his fault? So the Dalish Elves being afflicted by a pack of werewolves is his fault? So he's responsible for Enderin's death and the Orzammar succession crises?   

 

My, you seem to give a lot of power to one man. I suppose he's also responsible for the succession crises in Nevarra, Gaspard and Celene's civil war in Orlais, the mage/templar war, and the Qunari takeover of Kirkwall. And yes, I know he's not related to any of these events, and I'm using hyperbole, but your arguments that he is directly responsible for everything is not driven by actual facts, as per word of Gaider and the game itself.

 

He took the throne from Anora and assumed the position of leader, it was not official and he was not acting for the crown, he was acting for himself.

 

Now this is an interesting accusation. Now, if you would be so kind as to point out any moment in the game where he himself directly says he's the King and he's usurping the throne from his daughter? 

 

He's the Reagent, as such has a great deal of power. He's the leader of Ferelden's armies, so that also provides a great deal of power. Granted, his messenger to Orzammar calls him King Loghain, but nowhere else in the game are there any references beyond Alistair pondering if that's why Loghain retreated at Ostagar. But as for Loghain himself, he never once says Anora is no longer the Queen. In fact, he says it repeatedly. It's mentioned in the Landsmeet while we were still recovering in the Wilds, it's mentioned to Eamon before we start the questline to prepare for the Landsmeet, and if you recruit him into your party, he says it to you as well. He also makes it clear to Shale in dialogue that he never had any designs to hurt his daughter ever, and he would never be able to kill her. 

 

He was acting for Ferelden and truly felt that what he was doing was for the country's own good, so it is grossly inaccurate to say he was acting only on behalf of himself. Although to be fair, his actions AFTER Ostagar don't paint him in a pretty picture, so I won't defend him selling elves into slavery or poisoning Eamon, he's wholly guilty for those actions, and people can freely hate him for that and it would be legitimate, factual reasons to want him executed. 

 

But it's not right to paint everything that happened squarely on his shoulders when there are a lot of players in the game (pun not intended.) From Howe, Teagan, Eamon, Anora, the bannorn, the Warden and his/her party, the Orlesians who were sending a lot more soldiers to Ferelden than had been reported to Cailan and Loghain (Loghain at the Landsmeet says that Orlais was sending four legions of chevalier's, which is roughtly 12,000. But Riordan says they were sending a 400 wardens and a couple hundred divisions of cavalry, which would actually be closer to somewhere between 100,000 to 200,000,) Herriman in Kirkwall who was sending supplies and some men (found out in a DA2 sidequest if Hawke sided with the Red Irons,) and the thoughts and actions of all the individual soldiers under all these guys' commands. 

 

Lay credit and blame where it is due, but there is no need to spread it around in an emotionally filled rage. 

 

So there wasn't any treason being commited by Teagan or anyone else.

 

So Teagan and the banns who rebelled started fighting a war while the throne was empty, no one was on it whatsoever? And there was no sitting Queen in any way, shape or form? 

 

Really?

 

Anora was right there, she was already the Queen and had been for five years. She didn't disappear, she was standing right there in that first Landsmeet and tells Teagan directly that her father is doing what he thinks is best. The fact that she was still on the throne, as the named Queen and had not been deposed, means that every single noble who fought against her father, her Reagent and leader of her armies, are guilty of treason. So long as she was on the throne, which she was, they were guilty of treason. And the game also makes it clear that not all those who rebelled did it for idealistic reasons against Loghain, many did it because they wanted to take advantage of the apparent power vacuum left by Cailan's death and sit their own butts in the throne. 

 

Teagan is more of an idealist, but I'd be surprised if most of the banns who fought shared his opinions about what happened at Ostagar, and Loghain's motivations. 

[Tanash]

I can see why Loghain did what he did, and his reasoning for it, but my opinion is that; yes he deserves to die, can't trust the man after what he did, and keeping him alive is an insult to the people(heroes) who died at Ostagar, Duncan :~(

[dragonflight288]

I can see why Loghain did what he did, and his reasoning for it, but my opinion is that; yes he deserves to die, can't trust the man after what he did.

 

Fair enough. 

[ShadowLordXII]

snip

 

As pointed out before, Anora is only sitting ruler by virtue of being the late king's widow. Based on what we see in the game's she's honestly a figurehead for Loghain. Therefore, she has not been formally appointed as ruler of Ferelden by the Landsmeet, which means that it isn't treason to act against her father when the man is clearly acting in violation of Ferelden law. Teagan was merely the mouthpiece of what many in the bannorn were thinking, if Teagan hadn't spoken up then someone else would've done so eventually. Hell, Anora won't even be formally recognized as sovereign of Ferelden without the Warden's help. Until then, she's just an incumbent figurehead.

 

If this were any other country which has stricter rules regarding monarchy, this would be treason. Instead, this is merely the bannorn protesting bending the knee to a ruler that they did not elect per their system of government. Perhaps they should have avoided the Civil War to focus on the Blight, but Loghain was too stupid to prevent this from happening. The bannorn do deserve some of the blame for starting the war, but everything still leads back to Loghain for being at fault. Everything that he does after the war starts isn't going to endear him to potential voters either.

[Chashan]

 

He's the Reagent, as such has a great deal of power. He's the leader of Ferelden's armies, so that also provides a great deal of power. Granted, his messenger to Orzammar calls him King Loghain, [...]

 

It would be interesting to know just how much in the way of diplomatic exchange there has traditionally been between Orzammar and Ferelden. My impression is not much, given the dwarves' isolationist attitude.

It's possible that the messenger resorted to calling Loghain "King" because that's what he hoped would translate better to the dwarves that he was sent by someone of importance, and thus get him admitted, bluntly false as it factually may be. The dwarves themselves are rather tight-lipped towards the outside about the succession-crisis they got going, and omitting that Ferelden itself is in similar straits may serve better to convince the guard.

 

 

As pointed out before, Anora is only sitting ruler by virtue of being the late king's widow. Based on what we see in the game's she's honestly a figurehead for Loghain. Therefore, she has not been formally appointed as ruler of Ferelden by the Landsmeet, which means that it isn't treason to act against her father when the man is clearly acting in violation of Ferelden law. [...]

 

The question is: is there any precedent in said law where the extraordinary event of a Blight right in Ferelden's territory is exactly covered?

theskymoves did provide this quote here:

 

Nowhere is this more evident than during the Landsmeet, an annual council for which all the nobles of Ferelden gather, held for almost three thousand years except odd interruptions during Blights and invasions. The sight of a king asking for--and working to win--the support of "lesser" men is a source of constant wonder to foreign ambassadors.

 

which suggests we may be looking at a situation where the Landsmeet's usual rules need not apply due to "odd interruptions". One may view the fifth Blight in Ferelden as "sufficiently odd" there.