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Should Loghain Live or Die?


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#1726
Tremere

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The thing is with Loghain, is he had NO intention of going into that battle. His, 'Yes Cailan, glory for everyone', with that look he gave was pretty telling what he had in mind and as Tremere said that look as he retreated. 

Remember it was his battle plan. He put himself in the position of leading the flanking army. He also had control of the tower and the beacon, and WHEN if at all it would be lit. If it didn't light then he could claim he didn't know it was time to go in, if it was lit late, he then could claim the battle was lost and retreating was the only option (which he did).  

He didn't want Cailan allying with Orlais, he had already had planned for Eamon to be poisoned, so he couldn't support Cailan when Loghain confronted him about it.  So he already had plans to oppose him.

Cailan going into battle and dying would have been an unexpected opportunity to put an end to any allying with Orlais, without him having to publicly oppose him.

 

Anora wasn't in power, he took it from her.

He was dedicated to his PLAN that's why he didn't back down. He wanted power to make sure that things went according to his plan. I have no doubt he believed it was best for the country. But it does not excuse anything he did.

Also, and you can put this under the "theory/opinion" category, if the plan had stayed as Loghain intended, he would have sacrificed his own men in the tower who were tasked with lighting the beacon. Remember, he was the one who had the Tower of Ishal closed off due to "secure" the lower levels. If securing them was his intention, he clearly failed. Of course, this could be easily explained away, but all in all it does seem rather suspect. I mean, if the man would abandon his king and sell free citizens into slavery, why wouldn't he sacrifice his own men to that "vital task", in order to further his own plans?



#1727
dragonflight288

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The thing is with Loghain, is he had NO intention of going into that battle. His, 'Yes Cailan, glory for everyone', with that look he gave was pretty telling what he had in mind and as Tremere said that look as he retreated. 

 

And yet we have, in this very thread, shown evidence via word of David Gaider that Loghain was planning on being that battle, and only ordered the retreat based on a split second decision because at that moment he felt the battle was unwinnable. 

 

Gaider said that if Loghain felt that they could win, he would've charged. 



#1728
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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I can see why Loghain did what he did, and his reasoning for it, but my opinion is that; yes he deserves to die, can't trust the man after what he did, and keeping him alive is an insult to the people(heroes) who died at Ostagar, Duncan :~(

... You don't kill because not doing so is an insult to someone who's already dead. And that goes double in a world where there's no evidence against the idea that death is the end. Argue all you want that The Warden can't trust Loghain, that ties in with a duty to the living. And unless you're metagaming, and thus know for a fact he won't betray the party, you're even right. A duty to the dead, however, is no reason to kill someone for the crime of not pointlessly dying with them. Now, he committed other crimes, and I can see an argument that he should die for those. (Though I personally don't believe in capital punishment, which means that assuming there was some way he could be trusted, I'd argue the Warden ought to spare him despite them.) But if you see an argument for Loghain's actions (at least as far as Ostagar goes), and still think he should die for those specific actions? I don't see an argument.


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#1729
Darkly Tranquil

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The thing is with Loghain, is he had NO intention of going into that battle. His, 'Yes Cailan, glory for everyone', with that look he gave was pretty telling what he had in mind and as Tremere said that look as he retreated. 

 

And yet we have, in this very thread, shown evidence via word of David Gaider that Loghain was planning on being that battle, and only ordered the retreat based on a split second decision because at that moment he felt the battle was unwinnable. 

 

Gaider said that if Loghain felt that they could win, he would've charged. 

 

I feel that this is one of those things that got changed mid development or possibly retconned by Gaider afterwards.

 

I remember the first time I played DAO, I felt Loghain's behaviour in the strategy meeting was very suspicious, particularly the moment when Loghain turns away from Cailan and says, "Yes, a glorious moment for us all." in that snarky tone and with that "I know something you don't" look on his face. I felt that after this argument with Cailan about the Orlesians he had already decided to abandon Cailan to die on the battlefield. Also when the beacon is lit, Loghain's expression and tone suggest he had already made up his mind and doesn't even hesitate or display any doubt or distress about it; he comes across as smug and self-righteous (to me).

 

Now since Gaider has pretty explicitly discounted this version, I have to accept that's how it is, but I still suspect that was the plan at some point during development, because there are just so many hints around Ostagar that refer to the tensions between Cailan and Loghain, which seem to imply that their power struggle is going to explode at some point.



#1730
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The thing is with Loghain, is he had NO intention of going into that battle. His, 'Yes Cailan, glory for everyone', with that look he gave was pretty telling what he had in mind and as Tremere said that look as he retreated. 

 

And yet we have, in this very thread, shown evidence via word of David Gaider that Loghain was planning on being that battle, and only ordered the retreat based on a split second decision because at that moment he felt the battle was unwinnable. 

 

Gaider said that if Loghain felt that they could win, he would've charged. 

With all due respect I don't understand why people so often refer to David Gaider's statements on this situation when he clearly states that his words are "his opinion". I understand that in the context of him being one of the main writers in the series, his opinion holds weight, but it is still "his opinion". Even if you take his opinion as "the authoritative word" on this subject, very little if any of it is reflected in the game, so essentially, the points are moot. Loghain may have thought or intended "this or that", but we don't/can't know any of it. With no in-game reference, the only thing we have is speculation. Speculation and theory are not facts. Unless there is some clear evidence to support them, there's no reason to embrace them as anything more than they are.



#1731
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Unless there is some clear evidence to support them, there's no reason to embrace them as anything more than they are.

The thing is, Gaider's word isn't completely without evidence in-game to support it. We have the huge darkspawn column visible from the bridge, which goes all the way out to the horizon. That, I think, supports the "completely unwinnable battle" idea. We have one of Loghain's soldiers angrily argue against both Leiliana's spoken assertion that he's an unthinking lapdog and the unspoken assumption that everyone not on his side holds that Loghain deliberately betrayed the king, which if it isn't evidence of the truth of the matter he asserts at least leads one to suspect that it's not entirely clear that Loghain is lying. (Don't get me wrong, you'd expect to see one of Loghain's soldiers supporting him either way, and especially in public after circumstances lead to every single person listening to his words; most of the reason I think he works as a witness is because of the vehemence of his belief. He doesn't stutter, he doesn't look abashed, he doesn't show any sign of doubt that Loghain saved his life.) We have the cutscene in which Cailan dies, which shows darkspawn still entering the valley shortly before Cailan is killed; Loghain's strategy becomes much more effective the more darkspawn are distracted fighting Cailan. (This last one by itself doesn't necessarily preclude victory, but taken in context with the unending column visible from the bridge it looks pretty bad.) And during the DLCs we have a dying member of Cailan's honor guard casually accepting Loghain's presence in front of him (should the two meet), and casually agreeing with Loghain's assertion that the battle was already lost. The weight of these bits of evidence varies, but at least the first one should qualify as clear evidence of the necessity of Loghain's retreat, if not of his motivations for doing so. And should we accept that it was necessary, why do his motives still matter?


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#1732
dragonflight288

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The thing is, Gaider's word isn't completely without evidence in-game to support it. We have the huge darkspawn column visible from the bridge, which goes all the way out to the horizon. That, I think, supports the "completely unwinnable battle" idea. We have one of Loghain's soldiers angrily argue against Leiliana's both Leiliana's spoken assertion that he's an unthinking lapdog and the unspoken assumption that everyone not on his side holds that Loghain deliberately betrayed the king, which if it isn't evidence of the truth of the matter he asserts at least leads one to suspect that it's not entirely clear that Loghain is lying. (Don't get me wrong, you'd expect to see one of Loghain's soldiers supporting him either way, and especially in public after circumstances lead to every single person listening to his words; most of the reason I think he works as a witness is because of the vehemence of his belief. He doesn't stutter, he doesn't look abashed, he doesn't show any sign of doubt that Loghain saved his life.) We have the cutscene in which Cailan dies, which shows darkspawn still entering the valley shortly before Cailan is killed; Loghain's strategy becomes much more effective the more darkspawn are distracted fighting Cailan. (This last one by itself doesn't necessarily preclude victory, but taken in context with the unending column visible from the bridge it looks pretty bad.) And during the DLCs we have a dying member of Cailan's honor guard casually accepting Loghain's presence in front of him (should the two meet), and casually agreeing with Loghain's assertion that the battle was already lost. The weight of these bits of evidence varies, but at the first one should qualify as clear evidence of the necessity of Loghain's retreat, if not of his motivations for doing so. And should we accept that it was necessary, why do his motives still matter?

 

Adding onto this. 

 

If you start Return to Ostagar with Alistair in the party, that same man will outright tell us that Cailan knew the battle couldn't be won as well.



#1733
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The thing is, Gaider's word isn't completely without evidence in-game to support it. We have the huge darkspawn column visible from the bridge, which goes all the way out to the horizon. That, I think, supports the "completely unwinnable battle" idea. We have one of Loghain's soldiers angrily argue against Leiliana's both Leiliana's spoken assertion that he's an unthinking lapdog and the unspoken assumption that everyone not on his side holds that Loghain deliberately betrayed the king, which if it isn't evidence of the truth of the matter he asserts at least leads one to suspect that it's not entirely clear that Loghain is lying. (Don't get me wrong, you'd expect to see one of Loghain's soldiers supporting him either way, and especially in public after circumstances lead to every single person listening to his words; most of the reason I think he works as a witness is because of the vehemence of his belief. He doesn't stutter, he doesn't look abashed, he doesn't show any sign of doubt that Loghain saved his life.) We have the cutscene in which Cailan dies, which shows darkspawn still entering the valley shortly before Cailan is killed; Loghain's strategy becomes much more effective the more darkspawn are distracted fighting Cailan. (This last one by itself doesn't necessarily preclude victory, but taken in context with the unending column visible from the bridge it looks pretty bad.) And during the DLCs we have a dying member of Cailan's honor guard casually accepting Loghain's presence in front of him (should the two meet), and casually agreeing with Loghain's assertion that the battle was already lost. The weight of these bits of evidence varies, but at the first one should qualify as clear evidence of the necessity of Loghain's retreat, if not of his motivations for doing so. And should we accept that it was necessary, why do his motives still matter?

I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate here. That which you call a darkspawn column I call an unidentified column of lights. Considering the fact that none of the darkspawn we saw were carrying torches (or any light source for that matter). What it is, is unknown. What it suggests is of course debatable. In regards to that soldier arguing with Leliana you make the point quite clearly that he wouldn't exactly be privy to Loghain's thinking or his plan behind the plan, so his reaction is understandable, albeit misguided. Just like the guy you fight (or not) in Denerim. Still, what he says doesn't constitute proof without knowledge of what Loghain was thinking. Vehemence doesn't imply fact. By the same token, Alistair could vehemently proclaim that Loghain betrayed the king, which by your measure would hold equal weight. As to the darkspawn still entering the valley before Cailan is killed, well, Cailan might have been killed either way, but without the benefit if seeing how the planned counter from the flanks would work, we'll never know. Plus, I doubt that in the midst of battle, one man's death (even a king) will cause much of a wave when the enemy is still bearing down on you. If anything it might inspire more of what you saw from Duncan... And on that note, consider the notion that the scene was almost certainly intended to reflect the magnitude of the event. Of course people are free to interpret it however they wish.

 

In regards to the DLC you mention (I'm thinking Return to Ostagar), I don't know how much weight I'd put into an NPC's non-reaction to something that is obvious to us. BioWare's games are rife with that and notorious for "sins of omission", so I wouldn't exactly call that proof. Likewise, his comments (to me) are just fodder to justify the existence of the DLC and really make no sense. I say this because there's nothing to suggest that what he says is a reflection of Cailan's thoughts. To that, I reference Cailan's brief exchange with Duncan. From that you could conclude that he believed Loghain's plan would work and there's nothing to suggest otherwise. The look on his face and the conviction with which he spoke said it all.

 

{I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate in regards to my own assertion here. I'm slightly inclined to think that it was the intent of the writer's to portray Cailan as somewhat of a visionary. His decision to send Alistair and the Warden to light the beacon seemed oddly prophetic, considering the outcome. This would in essence lend weight to what you reference in the DLC and would then make your assertion plausible. That being said and with nothing to justify or clarify that point, I continue... ;) }

 

So, I respect your opinion, but mine remains unchanged. Not because I need to be right (Believe me, I don't. I'm all about facts.), but simply because the evidence (in my eyes) doesn't support anything beyond Loghain's hubris and treachery, which I say is the intent of game and the impetus behind your character being who he/she is regardless of what their decision is at the Landsmeet or what you the player sees as justified or not. I'd even take it a step further and reference comments made by Aveline and Varric in DA2, but that would be going beyond the bounds of this thread.

 

Ultimately, as I said in my earlier comment, even if I wanted to believe that Loghain's actions at Ostagar were militarily sound, everything he did in the aftermath sealed his fate. I could dismiss Ostagar entirely and still arrive at the same conclusion. In that sense, I'm only answering the question that was asked in the beginning of this thread.



#1734
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate here. That which you call a darkspawn column I call an unidentified column of lights. Considering the fact that none of the darkspawn we saw were carrying torches (or any light source for that matter). What it is, is unknown. What it suggests is of course debatable. In regards to that soldier arguing with Leliana you make the point quite clearly that he wouldn't exactly be privy to Loghain's thinking or his plan behind the plan, so his reaction is understandable, albeit misguided. Just like the guy you fight (or not) in Denerim. Still, what he says doesn't constitute proof without knowledge of what Loghain was thinking. Vehemence doesn't imply fact. By the same token, Alistair could vehemently proclaim that Loghain betrayed the king, which by your measure would hold equal weight.

As for the column, I suppose I take your point, though I still view it as probably supposed to represent darkspawn with torches.

 

As for your point on the witnesses, and your point that Alistair is no less reliable than the witnesses favoring my point... you're right. Here's the thing about witnesses: they're evidence, but they're not good evidence. One semester, I actually wrote a final paper on how weak a case that only depends on witnesses is. And now you know why I specifically said not all the evidence I was offering was equal.

 

And then there's your argument that this whole thing is moot because of all the horrible things Loghain did after, which I completely agree with. In fact, that's half the reason I can see an argument to kill him. Some of those I can see where he's coming from, but there's enough legitimately horrible stuff there that I can see where you're coming from too. (Even if killing someone in retribution for past actions isn't my thing.) And then there's the whole "trusting a defeated and Conscripted enemy" thing. Whatever my feelings on Ostagar, and despite my metagame knowledge that Loghain doesn't betray the party, I'm going to have to concede that the Warden is an idiot to Conscript him. And since that's one of only two options the Warden has due to game mechanics... well, despite the fact that I think I've previously argued that position, I don't think I've stated anywhere in this thread that the Warden should spare him.


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#1735
gottaloveme

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{I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate in regards to my own assertion here. I'm slightly inclined to think that it was the intent of the writer's to portray Cailan as somewhat of a visionary. His decision to send Alistair and the Warden to light the beacon seemed oddly prophetic, considering the outcome. This would in essence lend weight to what you reference in the DLC and would then make your assertion plausible. That being said and with nothing to justify or clarify that point, I continue... ;) }

 

 

I have always thought the same thing. However, any information I think leads somewhere, tends not to. Eg - the letters found in RtO, the arguments between Cailan and Loghain regarding the Queen (not the battle or the grey wardens) and as you mention Cailan sending his half brother (whom he knew about (whom/who?)), to the beacon. Two grey wardens out of the way and so new to the order as not to be Orlesian. B)


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#1736
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Calling Cailan a visionary is a thing I can't get behind. This is a guy who jeopardized the state of Ferelden by rushing past diplomacy and (possibly) entertained the idea of a marriage alliance with Celene, ignoring the political liabilities that would come with that all for a fool's notion of peace and idealistic fancy. This is a guy who, despite not having an heir and having routinely cheated on his wife, couldn't be bothered to actually name Alistair or Anora as his successor for the Landsmeet to elect.

 

He repeatedly denied waiting for troops that were only a week away. And sending Alistair to the tower, while on the surface holds a "wise move" to it, is problematic on a few levels as well.

 

What if the Tower gets hit by a boulder thrown by an ogre and comes crashing down? What if it gets overtaken (as it does)? And other questions. Putting Alistair in a place away from the battle is sound, yes, but putting him in a place that can't be easily escaped from ultimately renders it moot.

 

Though we do learn from Anora that Cailan kept tabs on Alistair.


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#1737
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It's always hard for me to take the line 'Cailan knew the battle couldn't be won' seriously.  That would mean Cailan charged the army full well knowing he'd die without apparently realizing that would leave his country leaderless and without a direct successor.



#1738
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It's always hard for me to take the line 'Cailan knew the battle couldn't be won' seriously.  That would mean Cailan charged the army full well knowing he'd die without apparently realizing that would leave his country leaderless and without a direct successor.

 

Cailan was a moron. Simple as that.

 

Still, Loghain is a horrible traitor. Letting Cailan die is one, letting thousands die, letting the Wardens die, framing the remaining wardens, starting a civil war, poisoning Eamon, selling elves into servitude... those are all wrong, no matter what his reasons were.


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#1739
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Calling Cailan a visionary is a thing I can't get behind. This is a guy who jeopardized the state of Ferelden by rushing past diplomacy and (possibly) entertained the idea of a marriage alliance with Celene, ignoring the political liabilities that would come with that all for a fool's notion of peace and idealistic fancy. This is a guy who, despite not having an heir and having routinely cheated on his wife, couldn't be bothered to actually name Alistair or Anora as his successor for the Landsmeet to elect.

 

He repeatedly denied waiting for troops that were only a week away. And sending Alistair to the tower, while on the surface holds a "wise move" to it, is problematic on a few levels as well.

 

What if the Tower gets hit by a boulder thrown by an ogre and comes crashing down? What if it gets overtaken (as it does)? And other questions. Putting Alistair in a place away from the battle is sound, yes, but putting him in a place that can't be easily escaped from ultimately renders it moot.

 

Though we do learn from Anora that Cailan kept tabs on Alistair.

In truth, I only suggest the 'visionary' thing for the sake of offering some explanation for why he'd suggest sending Alistair and the Warden "away from the battle" at all. As I mentioned, I'm sure there are many things we've seen in the series that don't make sense, so we have to pull a Sherlock Holmes in regards to them. (BioWare makes suspension of reality a real challenge sometimes. ;) )

 

All in all, I agree with your assessment here.



#1740
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Cailan was a moron. Simple as that.

This does seem to be the general consensus. :)


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#1741
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As for the column, I suppose I take your point, though I still view it as probably supposed to represent darkspawn with torches.

 

As for your point on the witnesses, and your point that Alistair is no less reliable than the witnesses favoring my point... you're right. Here's the thing about witnesses: they're evidence, but they're not good evidence. One semester, I actually wrote a final paper on how weak a case that only depends on witnesses is. And now you know why I specifically said not all the evidence I was offering was equal.

 

And then there's your argument that this whole thing is moot because of all the horrible things Loghain did after, which I completely agree with. In fact, that's half the reason I can see an argument to kill him. Some of those I can see where he's coming from, but there's enough legitimately horrible stuff there that I can see where you're coming from too. (Even if killing someone in retribution for past actions isn't my thing.) And then there's the whole "trusting a defeated and Conscripted enemy" thing. Whatever my feelings on Ostagar, and despite my metagame knowledge that Loghain doesn't betray the party, I'm going to have to concede that the Warden is an idiot to Conscript him. And since that's one of only two options the Warden has due to game mechanics... well, despite the fact that I think I've previously argued that position, I don't think I've stated anywhere in this thread that the Warden should spare him.

Make no mistake, I'm not disavowing your claim, it's just that we're offered no real explanation for what that column is, so without that... You get the point. I suppose my point in all of this, is that we arrive at conclusions about Loghain and his actions based on our own ideas of ethics and morality (as role-players) and what evidence the game presents us with. These things in and of themselves leave open the room for forgiveness or redemption. The same could be said if you recruit Sten and/or Zevran. Without the option for *C*, we have to go with "what we think we know". As I said in an above reply, "BioWare makes suspension of reality a real challenge sometimes."

 

Oh, and thanks for the back and forth. I like civil debates. :)



#1742
dragonflight288

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Make no mistake, I'm not disavowing your claim, it's just that we're offered no real explanation for what that column is, so without that... You get the point. I suppose my point in all of this, is that we arrive at conclusions about Loghain and his actions based on our own ideas of ethics and morality (as role-players) and what evidence the game presents us with. These things in and of themselves leave open the room for forgiveness or redemption. The same could be said if you recruit Sten and/or Zevran. Without the option for *C*, we have to go with "what we think we know". As I said in an above reply, "BioWare makes suspension of reality a real challenge sometimes."

 

Oh, and thanks for the back and forth. I like civil debates. :)

 

We see a similar column in the Deep Roads when we arrive at the Trenches, then we get a closeup to the darkspawn horde, before they start marching on orders from the Archdemon. 

 

I thought that would be a good in-game explanation what that column. And yes, civil debates are lovely. 

 

I can get what you're saying about Loghain, especially since the first few times I played the game, I instantly believed Alistair's reasons for why Loghain would do this, for the throne, when we discuss it at Flemeth's hut. I've since reevaluated that opinion, but I can get where people come from on that front. It's really easy on the first playthrough to blame Loghain for everything, and I get it, especially since I was guilty of that same thing a year ago before I decided to recruit him, talk to him, listen to his banter, and take him and Wynne to Ostagar in the RtO DLC. 

 

Ever since then, I've taken the habit of looking at it another way, and find myself agreeing with Loghain about the battle of Ostagar, and can understand why he did what he did afterwards, even though I hate and disagree with a lot of it. Hiring Antivan Crows, poisoning Eamon, selling elves into slavery are things I won't defend him on, but I can also say that my Warden isn't that much better. Preserving the Anvil of the Void, learning and practicing blood magic, killing Howe in his own home unlawfully, working with the Antivan crows as a part-time assassin, doing the Slim Cauldry thief missions and becoming the Dark Wolf, and allowing Sten to steal cookies from children. lol. 


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#1743
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We see a similar column in the Deep Roads when we arrive at the Trenches, then we get a closeup to the darkspawn horde, before they start marching on orders from the Archdemon. 

 

I thought that would be a good in-game explanation what that column. And yes, civil debates are lovely. 

 

I can get what you're saying about Loghain, especially since the first few times I played the game, I instantly believed Alistair's reasons for why Loghain would do this, for the throne, when we discuss it at Flemeth's hut. I've since reevaluated that opinion, but I can get where people come from on that front. It's really easy on the first playthrough to blame Loghain for everything, and I get it, especially since I was guilty of that same thing a year ago before I decided to recruit him, talk to him, listen to his banter, and take him and Wynne to Ostagar in the RtO DLC. 

 

Ever since then, I've taken the habit of looking at it another way, and find myself agreeing with Loghain about the battle of Ostagar, and can understand why he did what he did afterwards, even though I hate and disagree with a lot of it. Hiring Antivan Crows, poisoning Eamon, selling elves into slavery are things I won't defend him on, but I can also say that my Warden isn't that much better. Preserving the Anvil of the Void, learning and practicing blood magic, killing Howe in his own home unlawfully, working with the Antivan crows as a part-time assassin, doing the Slim Cauldry thief missions and becoming the Dark Wolf, and allowing Sten to steal cookies from children. lol. 

:D *laughs* You definitely went the "questionable" route (as my Warden would see it), but hey, they're all viable options, so... *shrugs* Without going into detail, I'd say my guy was a "pragmatic good" type who felt that the events at Ostagar (including the return) and all that followed, removed the veil of innocence he wore, having lived his life in the Circle. From that point on, he took no *guff* from anyone. He strove to do the right thing, as he didn't want to give people more reasons to distrust mages even though he did become a blood mage. (The option was opened in Awakening, not during Origins. ;) )

 

I'm actually playing Origins now and I looked at those lights... They were (from my perspective), sort of like the lights you get if you use Spell Bloom on a mage character. I think it was meant to represent "the bloom of influence" the Archdemon had on the horde. Not a representation of every individual darkspawn. So I'd be inclined to agree that it was a "big bloom", but I'd also be inclined to think that the battle-plan was idiotic.



#1744
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:D *laughs* You definitely went the "questionable" route (as my Warden would see it), but hey, they're all viable options, so... *shrugs* Without going into detail, I'd say my guy was a "pragmatic good" type who felt that the events at Ostagar (including the return) and all that followed, removed the veil of innocence he wore, having lived his life in the Circle. From that point on, he took no *guff* from anyone. He strove to do the right thing, as he didn't want to give people more reasons to distrust mages even though he did become a blood mage. (The option was opened in Awakening, not during Origins. ;) )

 

I'm actually playing Origins now and I looked at those lights... They were (from my perspective), sort of like the lights you get if you use Spell Bloom on a mage character. I think it was meant to represent "the bloom of influence" the Archdemon had on the horde. Not a representation of every individual darkspawn. So I'd be inclined to agree that it was a "big bloom", but I'd also be inclined to think that the battle-plan was idiotic.

 

That would make sense, if it weren't for one part of that very same scene. I just played the battle of Ostagar again less than 20 minutes ago with my casteless dwarf. I noticed when Loghain gives the order for retreat, there are a huge number of lights in a glowing column behind him, and as the soldiers on screen start moving, so to does the column in the background. 

 

loghains-betrayal.jpg

 

So yes, those lights are supposed to represent armies. 

 

Which, when considering this......

 

DAOrigins2010-10-0715-59-31-76.jpg

 

.....kind of has the whole flanking them kind of a moot point. There's simply too many of them. 

 

EDIT: And yes, my Warden did take the whole "do whatever is necessary to end the blight" route. He felt that with a bounty on his head, Antivan Crows hunting him down as a contract killing, not to mention the whole political arena in which he (unless I'm playing a Dwarf Noble or Human Noble) has no experience in, he wanted to get every advantage that he could get, and if it meant ending the blight, then it was worth it. 


Modifié par dragonflight288, 27 juillet 2014 - 08:06 .


#1745
gottaloveme

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 allowing Sten to steal cookies from children. lol. 

 

Sten stole cookies!?! WTF! :P



#1746
dragonflight288

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Sten stole cookies!?! WTF! :P

 

Yup! Go to the circle tower with Sten in your party and without Morrigan, and when Carrol pretty much asks for a bribe to take you across, Sten goes like this. "Bashera, here, take these and be done with it." And Carrol is all, "Cookies!"

 

You can ask Sten where he got them and he'll respond "A child had them in that last village we passed. He was a fat slovenly thing that didn't need them anymore."


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#1747
Tremere

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Yup! Go to the circle tower with Sten in your party and without Morrigan, and when Carrol pretty much asks for a bribe to take you across, Sten goes like this. "Bashera, here, take these and be done with it." And Carrol is all, "Cookies!"

 

You can ask Sten where he got them and he'll respond "A child had them in that last village we passed. He was a fat slovenly thing that didn't need them anymore."

:D *laughs* I forgot about this. I had this happen once... The only time I brought Sten with me to the Circle.



#1748
Magdalena11

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:D *laughs* I forgot about this. I had this happen once... The only time I brought Sten with me to the Circle.

He's got some dialog inside the tower to give you insight into what he thinks about qunari mages too.  I'm waiting to see how different it is.



#1749
Tremere

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He's got some dialog inside the tower to give you insight into what he thinks about qunari mages too.  I'm waiting to see how different it is.

*nods* It's been so long, I can't remember it anymore.



#1750
sylvanaerie

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He says mages are "beasts" who should have their tongues cut out.  

Having played "Mage" more than once has made me hate Sten.