3201 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

He says mages are "beasts" who should have their tongues cut out.  

Having played "Mage" more than once has made me hate Sten.

 

It'll be interesting to see, should he live and find his sword, how he'll do as the new Arishok. 

 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

He says mages are "beasts" who should have their tongues cut out.  

Having played "Mage" more than once has made me hate Sten.

I usually used Sten as one of my warriors while playing my evil Surana, despite Sten not moderating his dialogue on mages a bit in consideration of Shiva's magic. (Or at least, I don't think he could have made that any more offensive without tossing in a swear word.)

 

I also gave Sten the Templar spec in that one, which given how much impact magic had on the outcome of the Exalted Marches is probably going to be a disaster for Thedas if the Keep decides to record that choice.

[sylvanaerie]

It'll be interesting to see, should he live and find his sword, how he'll do as the new Arishok. 

 

 

Is he supposed to be the new Arishok (is there more than one or just that one?) even if he's left for dead in the cage?

[dragonflight288]

Is he supposed to be the new Arishok (is there more than one or just that one?) even if he's left for dead in the cage?

 

Nah. The devs said that they'll respect the choices we made. I think in most cases he WILL be the Arishok since I think statistically he lives in more playthroughs. 

 

And I think the devs confirmed that there's only one Arishok at a time. 

 

If he is, I'll start a Qunari appeasement campaign by giving him cookies. And then give him the recipe if he agrees to invade Tevinter. 

[sylvanaerie]

Nah. The devs said that they'll respect the choices we made. I think in most cases he WILL be the Arishok since I think statistically he lives in more playthroughs. 

 

And I think the devs confirmed that there's only one Arishok at a time. 

 

If he is, I'll start a Qunari appeasement campaign by giving him cookies. And then give him the recipe if he agrees to invade Tevinter. 

 

It'd be worth getting him out of the cage for that scenario!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

If he is, I'll start a Qunari appeasement campaign by giving him cookies. And then give him the recipe if he agrees to invade Tevinter. 

There's no way he didn't think to get his hands on a cookie recipe during the celebrations.

[dragonflight288]

There's no way he didn't think to get his hands on a cookie recipe during the celebrations.

 

But did he get the recipe for.....*drum roll*....fudge? Mmm...homemade fudge. 

[sylvanaerie]

Cake.  He wanted cake, was promised cake...then there was no cake...

 

So he got the recipe to make for himself.

[TEWR]

There's no way he didn't think to get his hands on a cookie recipe during the celebrations.

 

Now I'm imagining Sten sneaking off to the kitchens, finding the cook, and saying in his straitlaced and stoic demeanor "Show me how one makes the cookies." and the cook's so scared he does what he's told.

 

This is the reason Sten became the new Arishok. Not because of his prowess in battle against the Blight, but because of his contributions to Qunari society.

[Jaison1986]

Ironically, Sten was one of the few companions that made out alive of my evil Surana campaign. She usually killed the companions that defied her during certain questlines, and only Sten, Zevran, Oghren and dog survived the game. There is something oddly liberating about just doing what I want and not caring what the companions will think.

[Tremere]

He says mages are "beasts" who should have their tongues cut out.  

Having played "Mage" more than once has made me hate Sten.

Hmmm... With this knowledge, maybe I'll leave him in camp as I always do.

[Xilizhra]

Calling Cailan a visionary is a thing I can't get behind. This is a guy who jeopardized the state of Ferelden by rushing past diplomacy and (possibly) entertained the idea of a marriage alliance with Celene, ignoring the political liabilities that would come with that all for a fool's notion of peace and idealistic fancy. This is a guy who, despite not having an heir and having routinely cheated on his wife, couldn't be bothered to actually name Alistair or Anora as his successor for the Landsmeet to elect.

 

He repeatedly denied waiting for troops that were only a week away. And sending Alistair to the tower, while on the surface holds a "wise move" to it, is problematic on a few levels as well.

 

What if the Tower gets hit by a boulder thrown by an ogre and comes crashing down? What if it gets overtaken (as it does)? And other questions. Putting Alistair in a place away from the battle is sound, yes, but putting him in a place that can't be easily escaped from ultimately renders it moot.

 

Though we do learn from Anora that Cailan kept tabs on Alistair.

What I don't get is why the presence of Redcliffe troops being a week a way should have made any difference whatsoever, as the darkspawn attacked Ostagar in force that very night. Cailan didn't even deny Eamon's troops a place there, he just was dismissive about Eamon's motives.

[dragonflight288]

What I don't get is why the presence of Redcliffe troops being a week a way should have made any difference whatsoever, as the darkspawn attacked Ostagar in force that very night. Cailan didn't even deny Eamon's troops a place there, he just was dismissive about Eamon's motives.

 

Daveth explains to the Warden who asks this. 

 

"The darkspawn are in the forest and aren't organized yet. We placed the army here to draw them out. Dangling meat in front of the bear."

[Xilizhra]

Daveth explains to the Warden who asks this. 

 

"The darkspawn are in the forest and aren't organized yet. We placed the army here to draw them out. Dangling meat in front of the bear."

To be honest, I don't entirely blame Cailan's logic for this; had they waited a week for an army drawn solely from Redcliffe, the darkspawn could have emerged in even larger numbers and killed more troops. The presumably much larger and more skilled Orlesian detachment would have been worth waiting for (and they'd have gotten Redcliffe troops anyway), as it might lead to a better chance of outright victory in a highly defensible location, but with Loghain constantly vetoing that, this particular gamble doesn't sound all that stupid, given the lack of metaknowledge Cailan had. Keep in mind that a lot of his behavior just existed to keep morale up.

[TEWR]

What I don't get is why the presence of Redcliffe troops being a week a way should have made any difference whatsoever, as the darkspawn attacked Ostagar in force that very night. Cailan didn't even deny Eamon's troops a place there, he just was dismissive about Eamon's motives.

 

We don't know the full strength of Redcliffe's forces, but given the cinematic at the end showing the knights that returned and the conscripted militia, it's possible it would have made a decent difference. It would have definitely bolstered the troops there obviously, and such things necessitate new strategies to make best use of available forces.

 

One has to understand that the strategy we see was based on an approximation of the Darkspawn horde's strength for that battle in relation to the current strength of Ostagar's forces. In reality, it's not the best use of the fortress itself, but it still would have been a good plan.

 

But you're right, the Darkspawn do attack that very night. If they had had a better idea of what the horde's strength was, I imagine Loghain would have had everyone fighting from within the fortress' walls. The very point of a fortress is to keep people safe from outside aggressors. Charging out to meet them in the open is futile.

[Xandurpein]

There's so much missing in the whole narrative in the battle of Ostagar. For example, was the attack of darkspawn horde the reason the army deployed for battle, or was it the fact that the army deployed for battle that provoked the darkspawn attack. What kind of supplies did the army have inside Ostagar. Allowing themselves to be holed up in a fortress might be another form of suicide. Then there's the weird layout of Ostagar. It's really two forts joined by a bridge. It would make sense if it was built specifically to block the passage, between the forts, but if that was so, why didn't it? Why was it a bridge, instead of a wall?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

What kind of supplies did the army have inside Ostagar. Allowing themselves to be holed up in a fortress might be another form of suicide.

As to the first sentence, it might not have mattered much. Partially I say this due to the fact that supplies can be delivered from the lands the fortress was defending so long as said fortress held. Partially I say this due to the second sentence: we know that the darkspawn were able to circumvent Cailan's line through the door into the Tower of Ishal.

[Darkly Tranquil]

So much of the battle at Ostagar ultimately falls to speculation because what we don't know far exceeds what we do, so at best we can make inferences from things we see in game which may or may not accurately representative of what is really going on (such as the whole issue of the lights discussed above).

 

Short of an official comment from Word of Gaider (which we we never get because he loves to tease us) we'll just never know for sure, and this argument will go on forever. Personally, I think its ultimately up to each person's interpretation of what took place.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Short of an official comment from Word of Gaider (which we we never get because he loves to tease us) we'll just never know for sure, and this argument will go on forever. Personally, I think its ultimately up to each person's interpretation of what took place.

...There was an official comment from Word Of Gaider. You even mentioned it a page ago. The difficulty is that that's not stopping us.

[Elite Midget]

What he did was questionable but I would spare him as the Grey Wardens could use a former Hero with renowned fighting skill, even for his age, as well as a sound tactical mind for war planning and strategy.

 

Alistair also needs to learn that you cannot kill everyone that doesn't rub him the right way and that wasting an asset is the sign of a weak King. Like how Cailan wasted Loghain's talents by ignoring Loghain's advice completely and that lead to Cailan's death. Loghain living means that Alistair has to put up with not always getting his way and understanding that being King means he puts what's best before his own personal feelings at the time.

 

So, my canon file married Alistair to Anora and brought Loghain into the Grey Wardens to serve his final days as a member of an Order that Loghain had looked so down upon as a mere "Legend" that had long outstayed its visit.

[ShadowLordXII]

What he did was questionable but I would spare him as the Grey Wardens could use a former Hero with renowned fighting skill, even for his age, as well as a sound tactical mind for war planning and strategy.

 

Alistair also needs to learn that you cannot kill everyone that doesn't rub him the right way and that wasting an asset is the sign of a weak King. Like how Cailan wasted Loghain's talents by ignoring Loghain's advice completely and that lead to Cailan's death. Loghain living means that Alistair has to put up with not always getting his way and understanding that being King means he puts what's best before his own personal feelings at the time.

 

So, my canon file married Alistair to Anora and brought Loghain into the Grey Wardens to serve his final days as a member of an Order that Loghain had looked so down upon as a mere "Legend" that had long outstayed its visit.

 

Yes, how dare Alistair not be offended at a traitor get away with this actions. He clearly needs to grow up and become apathetic and non-moral about justice like Loghain and Anora were.

[Lavaeolus]

If all "justice" accomplishes is another corpse, justice becomes worthless. Loghain's already lost his reputation, his lands, and livelihood. Alistair rejects so harshly because he doesn't want to accept Loghain as a "brother".

 

If a king can't learn to work with people he doesn't like, he has no business being king.

[Elite Midget]

Alistair would waste a resource that even a more senior Grey Warden believes should be utilized, that's the sign of a wasteful King. Cailan was the last wasteful King who was driven by his emotions and he ended up dead.

 

If Alistair, even with Anora, is to rule than he cannot let emotions get the better of him and he needs to accept that killing others isn't always the answer to problems. Furthermore killing Loghain could possibly cause his many fans and loyalists to rebel later on or cause trouble or even refusing to fight for Alistair and leaving Ferelden.

[ShadowLordXII]

Alistair would waste a resource that even a more senior Grey Warden believes should be utilized, that's the sign of a wasteful King. Cailan was the last wasteful King who was driven by his emotions and he ended up dead.

 

If Alistair, even with Anora, is to rule than he cannot let emotions get the better of him and he needs to accept that killing others isn't always the answer to problems. Furthermore killing Loghain could possibly cause his many fans and loyalists to rebel later on or cause trouble or even refusing to fight for Alistair and leaving Ferelden.

 

The construction of the loghain-warden situation has already been discussed earlier in the thread. Long story short, Alistair was withheld from important information concerning the Archdemon because Riorden idiotically assumed that a pair of novice wardens would know exactly what it took to kill the Archdemon. Perhaps Alistair's beliefs would not have changed, but perhaps they would. 

 

Also, there's nothing stopping anyone else from being recruited like a knight such as Cathrien, one of your companions or any one of the hundreds/thousands of elves. Killing Loghain has no negative consequences especially since most of his loyalists have abandoned him in light of the evidence presented at the Landsmeet. The rest evidently fall in line with the rest of the bannorn because there's no mention of continuing rebellions in Loghain's name. Loghain has been proven to not be acting in Ferelden's best interests; He lost a trial by combat soon afterwards; and if not for the convoluted circumstances, he'd probably be executed as a traitor to the nation anyway.

 

Besides, Loghain's an old man past his prime and his recent actions put his tactical/strategic capabilities and priorities in question. So I wouldn't see him as an idea warden. Alistair's not perfect either, but his templar abilities make him essential against darkspawn emissaries and his priorities are a bit more in place than Loghain's. The latter won't put his nation at risk because of an imaginary threat conjured by his own paranoia.

 

Alistair does need to grow, but not like this. This will only chip away at what makes him a good person and cause him to lose hope in life. This guy's had to deal with an unfair life since he was born and now he's immature for wanting justice done just once in his life? I could use this same line of logic to say that Loghain was an immature idiot who needed to get over Orlais and his dead parents. But I won't.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

If all "justice" accomplishes is another corpse, justice becomes worthless. Loghain's already lost his reputation, his lands, and livelihood. Alistair rejects so harshly because he doesn't want to accept Loghain as a "brother".

 

If a king can't learn to work with people he doesn't like, he has no business being king.

I agree with most of that, however I think you've forgotten the entirely pragmatic reason to kill Loghain: namely, that nobody can be sure he won't stab the party in the back.