I agree with most of that, however I think you've forgotten the entirely pragmatic reason to kill Loghain: namely, that nobody can be sure he won't stab the party in the back.
People who take this route should also kill Zevran, leave Sten in the cage, and not recruit Shale.
If all "justice" accomplishes is another corpse, justice becomes worthless. Loghain's already lost his reputation, his lands, and livelihood. Alistair rejects so harshly because he doesn't want to accept Loghain as a "brother".
If a king can't learn to work with people he doesn't like, he has no business being king.
If that corpse brings closure to the families and friends of the victims and serves as a warning to others who might think to act similarly, then its not worthless at all.
Alistair is willing to work with people he doesn't like; he doesn't like Morrigan or Zevran, but he puts that aside and fights beside them. Loghain is a whole other level waaay beyond "dislike", so to say he won't work with people he dislikes is way underplaying the level of hatred we are talking about here.
Rightly or wrongly, he holds Loghain responsible for the deaths of his brother (even if he never knew him, blood is still blood), his mentor/father figure, and his Warden brothers. Loghain's betrayal at Ostagar takes from Alistair the only sense of family and belonging that he has ever had in his life and the idea that that man could be allowed to live after doing that and then actually join the organisation he destroyed is an insult that is simply intolerable for Alistair to bear. Alistair will put up with a lot, he will stick with the Warden through a lot of things he personally disagrees with in the name of duty, but Loghain is simply too much for him to stand.
Yes, how dare Alistair not be offended at a traitor get away with this actions. He clearly needs to grow up and become apathetic and non-moral about justice like Loghain and Anora were.
He needs to understand what justice actually is. Butchering people (especially with no regard for their loved ones who would be witnesses to that. Kinda makes Alistair a hypocrite if he's willing to have Anora suffer a sight far worse then he did) and slapping the label of "justice" on it doesn't make it so. I would not call Maric's act towards Katriel justice, nor the act towards the bootlicker nobles that killed Moira, yet those things are called justice by too many people (in-game and out).
Remember the terms of the duel. Two parties fight until the other yields. Technically speaking, we broke that arrangement if we kill him. If justice was to occur and Loghain was to be executed, he should have been imprisoned and sentenced in one go. Or perhaps given the chance to fight as a non-Warden under our authority, with the knowledge he'll die afterwards for his crimes.
I would not call our butchering of Howe in his home justice. For all the crimes he's committed, what we did was still a flagrant violation of the law that should come with repercussions considering we're Wardens (an order that was exiled for rebelling against a king, justified as it was. Even Duncan was unwilling to go against Vaughn despite how he needed to answer for his crimes).
I would be hesitant to call the CE's killing of Vaughan justice as well, but that one I can at least defend because Elves don't get justice to begin with so it's a moot point.
Justice is about more then killing people who wronged you. And Alistair's reasons for killing Loghain are shallow. He focuses more on himself then actual legitimate reasons he could be killed, like the slavery.
Loghain dies, and I certainly consider it justice for a multitude of crimes I've already listed on these forums. The entire Landsmeet is about presenting his crimes to the nobles and calling for justice, (a trial). Do I prefer an option to have him taken to the gallows to await execution? Some of my wardens might. I don't like executing him in front of his daughter, but doubtless that form of final justice was in place for those players (like me) who hate him and want that resolution.
As I've posted earlier (in this thread even), it's all a matter of perception. His crimes I've seen explained away repeatedly over the past 5 years (and still disagree with those arguments). His character grates on me like nails dragged on a chalkboard. I certainly don't want him in my camp, I want him dead, preferably at my hands but I'd take imprisonment if it were the only other option. A slap on the wrist--which is how I perceive recruitment for him and the only other option offered in the game--doesn't cut it.
He needs to understand what justice actually is. Butchering people (especially with no regard for their loved ones who would be witnesses to that. Kinda makes Alistair a hypocrite if he's willing to have Anora suffer a sight far worse then he did) and slapping the label of "justice" on it doesn't make it so. I would not call Maric's act towards Katriel justice, nor the act towards the bootlicker nobles that killed Moira, yet those things are called justice by too many people (in-game and out).
Remember the terms of the duel. Two parties fight until the other yields. Technically speaking, we broke that arrangement if we kill him. If justice was to occur and Loghain was to be executed, he should have been imprisoned and sentenced in one go. Or perhaps given the chance to fight as a non-Warden under our authority, with the knowledge he'll die afterwards for his crimes.
I would not call our butchering of Howe in his home justice. For all the crimes he's committed, what we did was still a flagrant violation of the law that should come with repercussions considering we're Wardens (an order that was exiled for rebelling against a king, justified as it was. Even Duncan was unwilling to go against Vaughn despite how he needed to answer for his crimes).
I would be hesitant to call the CE's killing of Vaughan justice as well, but that one I can at least defend because Elves don't get justice to begin with so it's a moot point.
Justice is about more then killing people who wronged you. And Alistair's reasons for killing Loghain are shallow. He focuses more on himself then actual legitimate reasons he could be killed, like the slavery.
Howe had kidnapped the nation's rightful queen and was, by all appearances, planning on killing her; conspiracy to commit treason would seem legal reason enough to deal with the situation. Sadly, only the human noble and city elf actually know about his other crimes and could be planning on bringing him down for those.
If that corpse brings closure to the families and friends of the victims and serves as a warning to others who might think to act similarly, then its not worthless at all.
Being forced to join the Grey Wardens and give up everything he owns and his whole life accomplishes that well enough, I think, a long with being forced to make amends by actively helping the organization he helped ruin.
If your justice is a simple beheading when there are other alternatives available, then you either have no idea what justice is, or I feel no need to consider it a virtue.
I agree with most of that, however I think you've forgotten the entirely pragmatic reason to kill Loghain: namely, that nobody can be sure he won't stab the party in the back.
Aye, but I'm merely talking about the idea of justice, not really an overall sense of pragmatism. Besides, I think half the party can't really be trusted until after they're in the party and you've talked to them. Zevran, most notably, but also Morrigan who clearly has an ulterior motive, Shale who really just wants to squish things, and the random priest with apparent hallucinations of the Maker.
The Warden's job isn't to mete out justice or dole out redemption. It's to fight the Blight.
Loghain did everything he could to hinder that effort. He only needs to be removed as an obstacle, not saved or punished. *makes throat slashing gesture*
The Warden's job isn't to mete out justice or dole out redemption. It's to fight the Blight.
Loghain did everything he could to hinder that effort. He only needs to be removed as an obstacle, not saved or punished. *makes throat slashing gesture*
Loghain dies, and I certainly consider it justice for a multitude of crimes I've already listed on these forums. The entire Landsmeet is about presenting his crimes to the nobles and calling for justice, (a trial). Do I prefer an option to have him taken to the gallows to await execution? Some of my wardens might. I don't like executing him in front of his daughter, but doubtless that form of final justice was in place for those players (like me) who hate him and want that resolution.
As I've posted earlier (in this thread even), it's all a matter of perception. His crimes I've seen explained away repeatedly over the past 5 years (and still disagree with those arguments). His character grates on me like nails dragged on a chalkboard. I certainly don't want him in my camp, I want him dead, preferably at my hands but I'd take imprisonment if it were the only other option. A slap on the wrist--which is how I perceive recruitment for him and the only other option offered in the game--doesn't cut it.
I can respect that sentiment, maker knows I've seen this situation with other characters i don't like, such as Anders, Isabela and even Merrill (my romance of all things), People often make excuses to justify their actions simply because they are companions or LI, so I can perfectly relate to you on that regard. I suppose it's just perspective by the end. In your view, recruiting him is an slap in the wrist, wereas in my perspective, I'm condemning him to a life of struggle and hardship. More often then not, what truly upsets me is seeing people trying to simplify some of his actions to make him look even more guilty and handwaving guilt from the involved parties.
You can put just as much blame on Duncan and his Wardens for their secrecy.You're looking at a different situation altogether if Loghain is aware that you need Wardens to slay the Archdemon. Their secrecy almost insured that the darkspawn won that Blight.
Not to mention Duncan backing and encouraging Cailan above all else from what we can tell in-game, rather than sticking heads together with Loghain who was the magister militum for all practical purposes. It's not like we even see as little as Duncan sighing in resignation when Cailan recklessly charges into the 'spawn...
SInce it is largely agreed that Cailan wasn't too bright, Duncan choosing to exclusively allign himself with him does seem rather dubious, to say the least.
You can put just as much blame on Duncan and his Wardens for their secrecy.You're looking at a different situation altogether if Loghain is aware that you need Wardens to slay the Archdemon. Their secrecy almost insured that the darkspawn won that Blight.
IMO, the near-loss of an entire nation is wholly attributable to Loghain ignoring and discounting entirely the input of Duncan, who was the king's de facto advisor and the only real subject matter expert on All Things Darkspawn.
Because Duncan was right, after all. It was a real Blight. Not, as Loghain insists, "Calian's vanity". (It's interesting that the vanity that nearly destroys Ferelden is, in fact, Loghain's.)
To me, there is a certain satisfaction if you spare Loghain and he finds out WHY the grey wardens are needed to kill the arch demon.
Howe had kidnapped the nation's rightful queen and was, by all appearances, planning on killing her; conspiracy to commit treason would seem legal reason enough to deal with the situation. Sadly, only the human noble and city elf actually know about his other crimes and could be planning on bringing him down for those.
How much of that was simply Anora manipulating our Warden through Erlina and how much of it is true?
I can respect that sentiment, maker knows I've seen this situation with other characters i don't like, such as Anders, Isabela and even Merrill (my romance of all things), People often make excuses to justify their actions simply because they are companions or LI, so I can perfectly relate to you on that regard. I suppose it's just perspective by the end. In your view, recruiting him is an slap in the wrist, wereas in my perspective, I'm condemning him to a life of struggle and hardship. More often then not, what truly upsets me is seeing people trying to simplify some of his actions to make him look even more guilty and handwaving guilt from the involved parties.
Some of my wardens might agree with your perspective (that recruitment would be a condemnation--my Rose Cousland would, certainly), but others would laugh in your face to suggest it. Both my Brosca and my Aeducan wanted to be and love being Grey Wardens.
Even though Rose would agree though, it wouldn't mean she'd want Loghain at her side/back fighting darkspawn after spending a year looking over her shoulder for the next assassination attempt. He walked away from the fight once, in her mind, he's not to be trusted.
The only person I actually recruited him on was a Cousland so traumatized by his origin, he couldn't kill a parent right in front of his child. It was done more for Anora's sake, not because he particularly liked Loghain. Roland figured what the hell...if he lives, he can fight, if he dies, then it's done and in the Maker's hands.
People who take this route should also kill Zevran, leave Sten in the cage, and not recruit Shale.
Luckily, my characters usually kill him for different reasons than I'm preaching. The Warden should kill him for pragmatic reasons, but whether or not the Warden actually does so varies from player to player, and in my and probably many other cases from Warden to Warden. (Because where's the fun in playing a completely ideal hero?)
I agree with most of that, however I think you've forgotten the entirely pragmatic reason to kill Loghain: namely, that nobody can be sure he won't stab the party in the back.
Especially as he's approaching being a paranoid loon. Warden's recruit thieves, murderers and blood mages, but I think they'd need them to be of sound mind. Even Loghain's daughter thinks he's worked a few screws loose.
Some of my wardens might agree with your perspective (that recruitment would be a condemnation--my Rose Cousland would, certainly), but others would laugh in your face to suggest it. Both my Brosca and my Aeducan wanted to be and love being Grey Wardens.
Even though Rose would agree though, it wouldn't mean she'd want Loghain at her side/back fighting darkspawn after spending a year looking over her shoulder for the next assassination attempt. He walked away from the fight once, in her mind, he's not to be trusted.
The only person I actually recruited him on was a Cousland so traumatized by his origin, he couldn't kill a parent right in front of his child. It was done more for Anora's sake, not because he particularly liked Loghain. Roland figured what the hell...if he lives, he can fight, if he dies, then it's done and in the Maker's hands.
Fair enough. The first time I played, it was an Cousland, you know, the family role model, honorable and diplomatic and all of that jazz. Needless to say, he was disgusted with the joining ritual. Executing unwilling recruits, forcing people to drink poison, lying to everyone around you. He grew very spiteful of both Duncan and Alistair for what they did to him, and every time Alistair brought up Duncan during conversation, my warden didn't spared the words. So I admit, the landsmeet was the place were he allowed his personal feelings to cloud his judgment. The right thing to do would probally be executing Loghain for his crimes, but there was some sweet irony in seeing Loghain forced to become what he hated the most.
Fair enough. The first time I played, it was an Cousland, you know, the family role model, honorable and diplomatic and all of that jazz. Needless to say, he was disgusted with the joining ritual. Executing unwilling recruits, forcing people to drink poison, lying to everyone around you. He grew very spiteful of both Duncan and Alistair for what they did to him, and every time Alistair brought up Duncan during conversation, my warden didn't spared the words. So I admit, the landsmeet was the place were he allowed his personal feelings to cloud his judgment. The right thing to do would probally be executing Loghain for his crimes, but there was some sweet irony in seeing Loghain forced to become what he hated the most.
Rose didn't want to be a warden. She was my 'mage Cousland' and hated Duncan, hated being 'trapped', annoyed as hell with Alistair's hero-worship and minced no words with him over it. (One of the few times I took the "He got what he deserved" viewpoint). They had a very rocky relationship indeed, but by the time she realized she could get them all back by putting a mage on the throne of Ferelden (and maybe improve things for mages in the process)...she cozied up to the bastard prince and Loghain had to die to fulfill her plans.
How much of that was simply Anora manipulating our Warden through Erlina and how much of it is true?
Does it matter? It was a mission from the queen. Legally speaking, we're in the clear. Morally speaking, Howe was a fiend who needed to be stopped, and lethally was the only way he accepted.
Does it matter? It was a mission from the queen. Legally speaking, we're in the clear. Morally speaking, Howe was a fiend who needed to be stopped, and lethally was the only way he accepted.
Howe did need to be stopped, but the way it was done should've had our Warden executed for murder, assault, breaking and entering, and so on. You may not want to hear this, but what we did was not really any different from what Howe did to the Couslands. The only real difference is that he's a scumbag and Bryce was not.
Howe did need to be stopped, but the way it was done should've had our Warden executed for murder, assault, breaking and entering, and so on. You may not want to hear this, but what we did was not really any different from what Howe did to the Couslands. The only real difference is that he's a scumbag and Bryce was not.
It rather is. For one thing, we didn't murder the entire staff or any other members of Howe's family; the only casualties were the basement guards and Howe himself. For another thing, had Howe released Anora, no one would have needed to die at all.
In any case, the whole thing was on Anora's orders, and if the Warden was going to die for that, Anora would have to as well.
It rather is. For one thing, we didn't murder the entire staff or any other members of Howe's family; the only casualties were the basement guards and Howe himself. For another thing, had Howe released Anora, no one would have needed to die at all.
In any case, the whole thing was on Anora's orders, and if the Warden was going to die for that, Anora would have to as well.
Actually, I tend to massacre as many guards as can be killed. XP ftw.
I will, however, note that The Warden was pretty much forced into this situation by the threat to Anora. (Even if we believe Loghain as to his unwillingness to allow Howe to kill her, as I tend to, as I noted previously in this thread Howe can be really short-sighted as to potential consequences when doing things he perceives to be in his own best interests.)
It rather is. For one thing, we didn't murder the entire staff or any other members of Howe's family; the only casualties were the basement guards and Howe himself. For another thing, had Howe released Anora, no one would have needed to die at all.
In any case, the whole thing was on Anora's orders, and if the Warden was going to die for that, Anora would have to as well.
Really? Had the Warden died, the strongest voice in opposition to Loghain being reagent and Anora being queen would've been quelled.
And while what I said was something of an exaggeration, it is pretty much true to the extent that you unlawfully entered someone else's home, murdered a bunch of people, including the owner of the house.
Really? Had the Warden died, the strongest voice in opposition to Loghain being reagent and Anora being queen would've been quelled.
And it would have ended up being irrelevant since without the Wardens Ferelden will be destroyed. Loghain and Anora might win the battle against the Warden, but the Darkspawn end up winning the war.
Far as I can recall, Anora never actually told you to kill Howe. She simply said that the mages responsible for her imprisonment were probably besides Howe (but then, I have yet to finish more playthroughs of DAO. I like to spam the Lothering girl for coin with a headcanon that it was in Soldier's Peak but that **** gets very tedious having to do it all the time).
Though as was pointed out earlier in the thread by Riverdaleswhiteflash and I've pointed out before in the past.... it completely ignores the fact that we could be Templars. Or Mages who know Dispel Magic.
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