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[Thermopylae]

In my first play through, the one where I made choices that were probably closest to my natural disposition, I kept Loghain alive, simply because I considered him a military asset, I expected to be able to get Alistar to agree with my decision. This did not happen, Anora became queen by herself, despite my attempts to get Alistar to marry her and I regretted that decision but it still suited my mind set at the time. The outcomes of my first game were perhaps somewhat darker that the ideal but it felt right. My warden went off searching for Morrigan at the end. It was quite a dystopian fantasy story . 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Far as I can recall, Anora never actually told you to kill Howe. She simply said that the mages responsible for her imprisonment were probably besides Howe (but then, I have yet to finish more playthroughs of DAO. I like to spam the Lothering girl for coin with a headcanon that it was in Soldier's Peak but that **** gets very tedious having to do it all the time).

 

Though as was pointed out earlier in the thread by Riverdaleswhiteflash and I've pointed out before in the past.... it completely ignores the fact that we could be Templars. Or Mages who know Dispel Magic.

She didn't in so many words tell you to kill Howe, but she probably figured it was going to end either the way it did, or with the Warden dead. I mean, even if it's possible to negotiate with the mage while Howe isn't around, with Howe standing right there ready to punish the mage for dispelling the barrier a fight is pretty much inevitable.

[TEWR]

Also worth noting, Howe wasn't paying a lot of craftsmen for their time.

 

Yeah, Howe was really short-sighted. I don't even see him as being politically capable in the first place, despite Loghain thinking of him as so (though I consider the military perspective more important to the alliance). A decent politician is at least able to see past themselves and how their actions will affect things.

[KaiserShep]

I'm not even sure what the point was in torturing that noble's son in the estate's dungeon. Personally I like to think that Howe was cracking himself, and killing him was also doing him a favor. I mean, why else would he just linger about in that pit?

[Tremere]

Here I go again... *smh*

 

I think people tend to overestimate Loghain's potential contribution and often use that as justification to spare him, but seriously... Do we really believe that the Grey Wardens don't have capable military minds within their ranks... More specifically, military minds that are accustomed to fighting against the darkspawn? Besides, it's not like they'd be fighting epic military battles that required days of planning. It's more likely that they'd be fighting skirmishes and guerrilla type warfare against the darkspawn, so how much of a contribution would he really make in the grand scheme of things? In regards to the conflict at hand... Do the Dwarves not have capable generals? Is the bannorn incapable of strategy and waging war? Arl Eammon? It's not as if the military machine would be incapable without his "leadership". There are plenty of military minds the Warden could rely on to help fight the darkspawn. Besides, considering what happens at the Landsmeet, would anyone really trust him? The Bannorn wouldn't. The Dalish most definitely wouldn't and I dare say nor would the Templars or the Mages? The Dwarves might. Sure, we could hypothesize that considering the threat, they'd put said trust aside, but there's no guarantee that would be the case. It's an assumption made to justify a choice that has nothing to do with the bottom line. For all his military acumen, Loghain marginalized himself by his actions. Why would anyone trust a "general", who so willingly and maliciously sacrificed the lives of others to serve his own ends? Yes, sometimes generals have to make hard choices, but given the circumstances, why would anyone trust him? And yes... Riordan was an idiot and provided proof that the Warden's needed an enema.

 

I also take issue with the notion that making him a Warden is somehow a punishment. He could die fighting the darkspawn weeks or even years after the joining. Sending him to fight beside Orlesian wardens? Pfft. Considering how right he thought he was, I'm sure he'd suffer it. How does that offer atonement for the lives he sacrificed? He could die by striking the final blow against the Archdemon and be once again hailed as a hero, if not a martyr. Does he really deserve that? Perhaps a chance at atonement, but reverence? *smh* I don't think so. Maybe Anora didn't deserve to see her father killed in front of her. To that I say that the soldiers at Ostagar didn't deserve to be cut down when they believed help was coming. The elves in the Alienage didn't deserve to see their friends and family carted off as slaves to the Tevinter Imperium. Call it "****** for tat" if you will, but there had to be a reckoning of some sort. Maybe Loghain deserved a chance at atonement (He can have it in his prayers, if he's the praying sort.), but in game, that atonement would have come at the cost of those lives he sacrificed and to that I say that those lives/souls deserve more reverence than he does. Also, since we're playing with "ifs" and "maybes"... Maybe incarcerating him would have lead to some zealous individual or group trying to free him. It could happen... Right? If I must choose the lesser of two evils, then I choose the one that hurts less and that's one of the many reasons why Loghain never survives the Landsmeet in any of my playthroughs.

[Chashan]

Here I go again... *smh*

 

I think people tend to overestimate Loghain's potential contribution and often use that as justification to spare him, but seriously... Do we really believe that the Grey Wardens don't have capable military minds within their ranks... More specifically, military minds that are accustomed to fighting against the darkspawn

 

I already brought up my doubts about the capability of the one "Grey Warden mind" that is present at Ostagar, Duncan, who doesn't do much of anything to reign in Cailan's playing at war. The best that could be read into that is passivity on Duncan's end in the matter, the worst ineptitude, or if not that the desire to back the one party that is least likely to object to Duncan's word, even though that means taking an apologetic stance towards the king's irresponsible attitude.

 

 

 

Why would anyone trust a "general", who so willingly and maliciously sacrificed the lives of others to serve his own ends?

 

That is what you choose to read into that, others have already brought forward why Ostagar was pretty much a lost cause. That aside, where do you get the idea that the Dalish would have a serious grievance with Loghain specifically? He doesn't have a hand whatsoever in the werewolf-crisis, which is solely the Lady's doing. The Tevinter-operation in Denerim may also be viewed as a symptom of the shem urban system in general, if it bothers the Dalish tribes at all (if it means more urban elves turn to them, all the better - their opinion of humans in general isn't too high one way or the other).

 

 

 

That aside, asymmetrical warfare is largely useless against the sheer numbers of the Blight, and in-game it is "epic battle" that ultimately wins or loses the day, as is the case with Ostagar and later the siege of Denerim. Owed to Bioware's underwhelming accuracy when it comes to matters of warfare, but that's a thing already discussed elsewhere.

[TEWR]

Howe was definitely out of his mind, having moved his bedroom close to the dungeons. This is a man who told his man Lowan to do whatever it took to root out possible men that wouldn't hold with his own plans to destroy the Couslands (not that that's not sensible for a move against another lord, but Howe's actions were poorly thought out to begin with).

 

I could sympathize with Howe up to a point for how his own life was somewhat shitty, but it doesn't excuse anything he did. There are some nuances to his character, like how the family of the woman he married hated him and he hated his wife, they thought him inadequate, and how he resented their affluence. How he resented Bryce's seemingly disregard for what the rebellion stood for (not that I think Howe was right. Bryce was doing proper diplomacy between nations if you ask me, unlike Cailan) by going to Orlais and by letting Fergus marry Oriana, who was from Antiva. He tries to marry his daughter to Delilah, against her own wishes, to the HNM (given his character, it's probably so he could have more power personally... though it might've mended some bridges between the families had he not been an asshat underneath. Hard to say. Not really in a political-analysis mode regarding feudal families right now).

 

But he felt entitled to everything, forgetting that being a noble has more meanings then just blue blood. He never worked towards anything, but expected it handed to him on a silver platter. His condemnation of Orlais and his jealousy towards his peers has poisoned him, and ironically turned him into the very thing he chastises Bryce as being: a traitor to the nation. He's so wrapped in his own delusions that he thinks them true.

 

He destroyed an entire household ignoring the long-term consequences of it all, if he even considered them in the first place. Highever reviles his actions under his despotic rule (though I can't recall if they rioted), with no one being fool enough to think they don't know how he came into power there. He travels to Denerim under guise of reinforcing the garrison for the riots which by the sound of such a thing sound like they were bad, only to imprison Vaughan and claim him a victim of the uprising... and in turn instills himself as the new Arl (something Loghain only allows after the fact).

 

Then he begins to instigate a Purge of the Alienage after the riots have subsided, for no other reason then to "cull the herd", thinking the Elves no more then animals. From a public relations standpoint this was a ****** maneuver. The Elves are now firmly set against the regency, but the damage from the Purge was so extensive that it broke the Veil and allowed an influx of Demons to pass through (some of them possessing Mages!). Bodies are left unattended to, damage left without repair. The man led a slaughter of an orphanage.

 

Then he takes to having an Elven man travel to Redcliffe to keep tabs on Eamon's condition from the poison Jowan administered. Berwick was to report to a man under Howe's command if anything should change. This was done to see that if Eamon's condition worsened to the point where death was possibly in the cards (though originally unlikely as it wasn't meant to be fatal) an antidote would be sent. But given Howe's character, I have no doubt that he would've conveniently "forgotten" to tell Loghain of such a thing and left Eamon to his fate... all while planning a means to take Redcliffe for himself. Connor would be sent to the Circle, with only Isolde and Teagan standing in the way.

 

I imagine he might've talked of how handing over lands to an Orlesian woman would be bad mojo for the nation and somehow removed Teagan.

 

That same reason is why I think he kidnapped Irminric and Oswin. On the surface it was just to remove witnesses who could threaten Loghain's regency, but they're also related to nobility. Irminric's sister was Bann of Waking Sea and Oswin was the son of the Bann of Dragon's Peak. He even told Oswin that Eamon was dead and the Landsmeet called off. True enough, he aimed to kill Anora and pin the blame on Eamon, broaching the subject with Loghain and was still going to do it despite being told not to.

 

This is a man who called Anora, the queen of a nation, traitor -- and that was the kindest name given to her. Everything from how he refers to Oriana as an Antivan ****** to his remarks to a HNF about "playing the man" to the aforementioned thing with Anora also point to him having a very sexist attitude towards women.

 

Oh, and he's been embezzling funds from the nation as well, depleting the treasury to the point where it became harder and harder to fight a war and stuffing it all in a room across from his own. IIRC, he was flirting with another noble, probably hoping to marry her with his wife out of the picture or keep her on as a mistress and add her lands and riches to his own. Course, Lady Sophie's no saint either, focusing on her own personal fun then the fate of a nation, but anyway... the man also neglected to pay stonemasons and other workers for their time and energy.

 

Not to mention how given his attitude towards the Elves (in contrast to Loghain's attitude towards Elves) it was probably his idea to bring in Tevinter slavers and sell off some of the Elves in order to replenish the treasury (probably so he could keep embezzling a bit more and more). Loghain did sign off on it however.

 

Howe is beyond short-sighted to me. He's incompetent and obsessed with himself and a thoroughbred bastard besides. Not only did he forget what it means to be a noble, he forgot what it meant to stand for something. The man that was rewarded for his service at White River with a medal no longer exists.

 

But as much as I don't mourn his death -- neither does anyone else, as they say the "boy at White River died there" -- I still can't hold with what we do to him as being just. It's still breaking the law by going in there and murdering his guards (people who were just hired on, in fact). Howe is not loved, but he's still a politically important figure in the Landsmeet. Just as we are. And the Warden cannot be killed by Loghain at this point in time because it would raise far too many questions (to say nothing of how we're no saints ourselves).

 

So too should the killing of Howe come with consequences. Anora is trying to discreetly side with us because we're a key player in the game now that can turn the tide. If we go in there, brazenly slaughtering anything in our path because we think we're in the right, we end up causing more damage to ourselves (or should at any rate) then we would have otherwise.

 

Honestly it makes Anora's save should a bonehead Warden choose to reveal to Cauthrien (Loghain's knight) what we're doing, since she didn't want her father to know what she was doing because she wasn't sure he wouldn't have her killed as well. Plus there's no guarantee she can trust those men and women.

 

Loghain was right that we should have dragged Howe before the seneschal to face judgment for his crimes (funnily, we can rob said seneschal of Teyrn Loghain's crown). That is the proper way to dole out justice. We have enough evidence to convict him and he'd be hanged as a traitor.

 

Shame that his own actions condemn the family, given some of the many things that made the Howes a great family. Rendon fell victim to the same bitter rivalry that has always plagued the two families.

 

The Bear's Embrace: Kathra Howe wore this armor during the Chasind Uprising two centuries ago. She did not survive to become arlessa of Amaranthine, yet she became one of the Howes' most treasured legends.

 

Howe's Shield: This shield has belonged to the arls of Amaranthine since Calenhad's time. There are scars in the enamel from Avvar axes, Orlesian swords, and heated debates with the Bannorn.

 

TL;DR: Howe's a bloody idiot who royally cocked things up for the nation.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Far as I can recall, Anora never actually told you to kill Howe. She simply said that the mages responsible for her imprisonment were probably besides Howe (but then, I have yet to finish more playthroughs of DAO. I like to spam the Lothering girl for coin with a headcanon that it was in Soldier's Peak but that **** gets very tedious having to do it all the time).

 

 

Anora didn't tell you to kill Howe, but you had to eliminate the mages to release her and once you confronted the mages and Howe, a fight to the death was pretty much inevitable. Howe could have fled or surrendered, but in his arrogance (and madness) he chose to fight and got what he deserved, so there was never really an option to take him alive. Unless you are a Cousland, there is no reason to assert that the Warden went into the Arl of Denerim's Estate with the intention of killing Howe. The Warden went to rescue Anora; that a confrontation took place and Howe was killed is not indicative of intention.

[KaiserShep]

I do kind of wish that there were more options in how to deal with Howe, like having him go before the nobles and to see his face as he's being put on the block or being walked to the gallows. It'd probably be more fitting for origins that aren't as closely tied to his shenanigans, though it's an option I imagine a human noble would gladly ignore. In that position, f*ck the consequences. That man would die in the dungeon like the vermin that live there.

[Mike3207]

Once Howe takes Anora prisoner, I don't think he has a lot of options left.You're abducting the only royal in the country before the Landsmeet.I have to think Howe meant to do that in secret, because if it becomes public knowledge it probably will mean a death sentence for Howe.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Once Howe takes Anora prisoner, I don't think he has a lot of options left.You're abducting the only royal in the country before the Landsmeet.I have to think Howe meant to do that in secret, because if it becomes public knowledge it probably will mean a death sentence for Howe.

Loghain seems to have known about it, and even been approached by Howe about the idea of Anora being "martyred" by him for their cause so that they could pin it on the Warden. (Loghain claims to have put his foot down, and I honestly believe him. Though he doesn't seem to have decided she had to be freed.)

[DinkyD]

<snip>

 

 

That is what you choose to read into that, others have already brought forward why Ostagar was pretty much a lost cause.

 

<snip>

 

You must be fair - it is very difficult NOT to “read into” the events of Ostagar that Loghain sacrificed those men, as that is the direct implication of the scenes in game, presented to us. You can come on a forum and speculate about things not directly presented in game, and wonder how much he rationalised his decision and decide to cut his losses, but I think the burden of proof very much rests on those that claim it was a tactical withdrawal. But I'm not much of one for the “read the supplementary material to find out what really happened”

 

Either way, reasons may have been brought forward, but that doesn't mean they are strong enough to convince everyone.

 

Apologies if these points have already been touched upon, i haven't read all the thread.

 

As I see it, even if no ultimate victory was possible at Ostagar over the blight because the horde grew each time they faced them, it does not follow that particular battle was a lost cause. They could have won and then perhaps Cailan could have been persuded to abandon Ostagar realising that they wouldn't win in the end.

 

One wonders if Loghain was such a military genius and was so convinced that it was going to be a slaughter why he waited until the beacon was actually lit, and the other army was fully engaged, before withdrawing he's own men. If he was so aware of the battlefield conditions, why did he not send a runner to order a full retreat, of both armies, once he realised the danger? Then at least some, if not all,  of the Kings army could have been saved.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

You must be fair - it is very difficult NOT to “read into” the events of Ostagar that Loghain sacrificed those men, as that is the direct implication of the scenes in game, presented to us. You can come on a forum and speculate about things not directly presented in game, and wonder how much he rationalised his decision and decide to cut his losses, but I think the burden of proof very much rests on those that claim it was a tactical withdrawal. But I'm not much of one for the “read the supplementary material to find out what really happened”

That is the direct implication of some of the scenes in the game.

[DinkyD]

That is the direct implication of some of the scenes in the game.

 

The only thing I can think of implying that it might have been an unwinnable battle is taking what the Ostagar's deserter says at face value about the numbers of darkspawn being too large. But it's very much a "Even if" Loghain hadn't withdrew. It's just a happenstance that has nothing to do with the reasons Loghain reached his decision.

 

When he makes the decision to withdraw he is looking at the beacon and realising he's going to have to make a decision. He's not looking at the darkspawn, or conferring with his men; or anything else that might have implied he had the actual state of the battle in mind.

 

I'd be very curious if anyone at all watched the Ostagar sequence unfold in its entirety and then at the end sat back and said, "Well that looked like a tactical retreat"

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I'd be very curious if anyone at all watched the Ostagar sequence unfold in its entirety and then at the end sat back and said, "Well that looked like a tactical retreat"

The very first time I played Ostagar, I heard Alistair say "We've surely missed the signal," then watched Loghain retreat. And then Alistair starts blaming Loghain for not charging, and I just said to myself "... Wait a minute..."

 

And that's without having known to look over the bridge and see the long stream of light (presumably the darkspawn column) stretching out to the horizon.

[Tremere]

You must be fair - it is very difficult NOT to “read into” the events of Ostagar that Loghain sacrificed those men, as that is the direct implication of the scenes in game, presented to us. You can come on a forum and speculate about things not directly presented in game, and wonder how much he rationalised his decision and decide to cut his losses, but I think the burden of proof very much rests on those that claim it was a tactical withdrawal. But I'm not much of one for the “read the supplementary material to find out what really happened”

 

Either way, reasons may have been brought forward, but that doesn't mean they are strong enough to convince everyone.

 

Apologies if these points have already been touched upon, i haven't read all the thread.

 

As I see it, even if no ultimate victory was possible at Ostagar over the blight because the horde grew each time they faced them, it does not follow that particular battle was a lost cause. They could have won and then perhaps Cailan could have been persuded to abandon Ostagar realising that they wouldn't win in the end.

 

One wonders if Loghain was such a military genius and was so convinced that it was going to be a slaughter why he waited until the beacon was actually lit, and the other army was fully engaged, before withdrawing he's own men. If he was so aware of the battlefield conditions, why did he not send a runner to order a full retreat, of both armies, once he realised the danger? Then at least some, if not all,  of the Kings army could have been saved.

*smiles and nods graciously* I couldn't have said it better, so I won't try.

[Tremere]

I'd be very curious if anyone at all watched the Ostagar sequence unfold in its entirety and then at the end sat back and said, "Well that looked like a tactical retreat"

I know I didn't.

[DinkyD]

The very first time I played Ostagar, I heard Alistair say "We've surely missed the signal," then watched Loghain retreat. And then Alistair starts blaming Loghain for not charging, and I just said to myself "... Wait a minute..."

 

And that's without having known to look over the bridge and see the long stream of light (presumably the darkspawn column) stretching out to the horizon.

 

Fair enough. But I don't think the timing of the signal (assuming it was too late, rather than perhaps not delayed or not significantly delayed at all) can get Loghain off the hook. From Loghain's POV he logically can't know the signal was late, because the only measure is the signal itself. If he knew the signal was ill-timed and a charge wouldn't accomplish much, that implies that he had independent knowledge of the battlefield,which makes the timing of the signal redundant. And if he did, why didn't he react earlier? And why was he still waiting, as he would have already known that the moment to charge had already passed?

 

Concerning the column, it only equals inevitable defeat for me if I assume that he's a poor general whose about to commit his entire force in one push without protecting his flank. The darkspawn numbers entering could be held off by a smaller force while the mass is defeated, and then the entire army could be committed to defeating those entering. The darkspawn at the head of column entering the valley would then be continually cut down by a larger army before they can form an equal force. Or alternatively, when the bulk of the horde is defeated both armies can then retreat away from the other approaching darkspawn. No need to let a  massacre happen.

 

(just a thought - maybe the column is Loghain's army retreating?)

 

But that is all just speculation (encouraged no doubt in part by playing too much Total War before I got into playing rolepaying games). There's no sign that this is part of Loghain's actual thought processes which is the crucial issue for me. He looks at a signal he can't logically know for sure is late, and then withdraws.

 

The best I could say is that he might have accidently made the right decision, if one is prepared to make certain assumptions. But in that he's just lucky.

Modifié par DinkyD, 30 juillet 2014 - 11:01 .

[JasonShepard]

Personally?

 

I wouldn't kill him, and I wouldn't turn him into a Grey Warden. I'd throw him in a cell to rot. Deal with the man once the blight is over and done with. And, if we have the materials to perform the Joining, then make someone else more trustworthy into a Grey Warden. Sten perhaps?

 

Unfortunately, that's not an option, so death it is. I'm usually capable of getting Anora and Alistair to marry even with Loghain joined, but I (as a player) prefer Alistair on my squad to Loghain. In universe, I imagine my character is too enraged to consider not killing him.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Fair enough. But I don't think the timing of the signal (assuming it was too late, rather than perhaps not delayed or not significantly delayed at all) can get Loghain off the hook. From Loghain's POV he logically can't know the signal was late, because the only measure is the signal itself. If he knew the signal was ill-timed and a charge wouldn't accomplish much, that implies that he had independent knowledge of the battlefield,which makes the timing of the signal redundant. And if he did, why didn't he react earlier? And why was he still waiting, as he would have already known that the moment to charge had already passed?

 

Concerning the column, it only equals inevitable defeat for me if I assume that he's a poor general whose about to commit his entire force in one push without protecting his flank. The darkspawn numbers entering could be held off by a smaller force while the mass is defeated, and then the entire army could be committed to defeating those entering. The darkspawn at the head of column entering the valley would then be continually cut down by a larger army before they can form an equal force. Or alternatively, when the bulk of the horde is defeated both armies can then retreat away from the other approaching darkspawn. No need to let a  massacre happen.

 

(just a thought - maybe the column is Loghain's army retreating?)

 

But that is all just speculation (encouraged no doubt in part by playing too much Total War before I got into playing rolepaying games). There's no sign that this is part of Loghain's actual thought processes which is the crucial issue for me. He looks at a signal he can't logically know for sure is late, and then withdraws.

 

The best I could say is that he might have accidently made the right decision, if one is prepared to make certain assumptions. But in that he's just lucky.

I can promise you the stream of light we can see from the bridge, going straight into the battlefield from the Wilds, well before you light the signal, is not Loghain's army retreating. Furthermore, I don't see much hope for your idea that Loghain could protect his flank from a darkspawn column large enough to provide it. If nothing else the darkspawn could keep throwing themselves at the army until the soldiers making it up were exhausted. Go back through the thread and you'll see a screenshot that might explain these opinions.

 

As for your argument that Loghain would need independent knowledge of the battlefield to know not to charge, all he has to not know to make the signal necessary is whether there are more darkspawn coming to flank his flankers. I don't think it's that hard to picture a scenario in which he can see the field well enough to know that there's spawn coming as long as they maintain a constant stream of advancing spawn (which from all we can see they do), but can't see well enough from his vantage that he's willing to charge without people at a higher elevation telling him he's clear to (in case there's a 500 foot break in the column that he's mistaking for the end of the column.)

 

As for Loghain not being able to know that the signal is late? That doesn't work in the context of Duncan knowing that it's going to be less than an hour before it needs to be lit. Loghain was the one who made the plan; if Duncan's not pulling a number out of nowhere Loghain can be expected to know that same number.

 

And even if his logical process included none of this and he made the right decision by mistake, that's not the same as making the wrong decision.

[KaiserShep]

Personally?

 

I wouldn't kill him, and I wouldn't turn him into a Grey Warden. I'd throw him in a cell to rot. Deal with the man once the blight is over and done with. And, if we have the materials to perform the Joining, then make someone else more trustworthy into a Grey Warden. Sten perhaps?

 

Unfortunately, that's not an option, so death it is. I'm usually capable of getting Anora and Alistair to marry even with Loghain joined, but I (as a player) prefer Alistair on my squad to Loghain. In universe, I imagine my character is too enraged to consider not killing him.

 

I think it's pretty weird that there is no option to imprison him, which is what I would have most preferred. Whether one sees being a Warden as punishment or an honor, I'd rather he suffer from behind bars, being marked a traitor by the country he claims to love so much.

[Xilizhra]

I think it's pretty weird that there is no option to imprison him, which is what I would have most preferred. Whether one sees being a Warden as punishment or an honor, I'd rather he suffer from behind bars, being marked a traitor by the country he claims to love so much.

I don't really care if he suffers or not, I just want him out of the way. I have him killed by Alistair not because I hate him, but because I get to keep Alistair at the end and because it removes the rather poorly-written scene with Riordan.

[TEWR]

You must be fair - it is very difficult NOT to “read into” the events of Ostagar that Loghain sacrificed those men, as that is the direct implication of the scenes in game, presented to us. You can come on a forum and speculate about things not directly presented in game, and wonder how much he rationalised his decision and decide to cut his losses, but I think the burden of proof very much rests on those that claim it was a tactical withdrawal. But I'm not much of one for the “read the supplementary material to find out what really happened”

 

Either way, reasons may have been brought forward, but that doesn't mean they are strong enough to convince everyone.

 

Apologies if these points have already been touched upon, i haven't read all the thread.

 

As I see it, even if no ultimate victory was possible at Ostagar over the blight because the horde grew each time they faced them, it does not follow that particular battle was a lost cause. They could have won and then perhaps Cailan could have been persuded to abandon Ostagar realising that they wouldn't win in the end.

 

One wonders if Loghain was such a military genius and was so convinced that it was going to be a slaughter why he waited until the beacon was actually lit, and the other army was fully engaged, before withdrawing he's own men. If he was so aware of the battlefield conditions, why did he not send a runner to order a full retreat, of both armies, once he realised the danger? Then at least some, if not all,  of the Kings army could have been saved.

 

Oh undoubtedly it does carry with it implications, but only if you wish to ignore military reasoning in favor of drama. The implications alone aren't strong enough to stand up to scrutiny (for us, at any rate).

 

We can see the full strength of the horde from the bridge, where the line extends into the ass end of the Korcari Wilds. We can see dozens of Emissaries in the horde charging towards us. Those are the mages in the horde, and magic as we all know can account for a vast deal of devastation upon an army. Ostagar's forces only had 7 (potentially 8) mages to work with. That is hardly enough to compensate.

 

We hear firsthand how despite two units of men arriving every hour, Loghain fears it still won't be enough (even as they expect that doubled for the next day). Survivors of the Darkspawn are quick to point out how there are far too many for us to deal with. Granted, one is mad, but it's implied that he's suffering from the corruption and as a result is linked to the hive mind.

 

Cailan was told to lure the Darkspawn to him. Luring means drawing them to you, but he royally cocked up things. We see them having no qualms about charging towards the forces. First way Cailan screwed up was by only firing one volley of arrows into the horde. One! The best thing to do in that scenario, looking at the structure of Ostagar, is to use a phalanx formation with archers in the far back firing continuously into the horde. The walls of Ostagar would protect the soldiers' flanks. Think Thermopylae, or at least the popular depiction of it (though sans the bare-chested stuff ).

 

At any rate, only firing one volley of arrows into the horde doesn't do much to slow them down, as we see. As if this was not bad enough, he then sends out the Mabari hounds into the horde, where they do little more then become fodder for the Darkspawn. At best, they take down one or two Darkspawn each. Mabari can be great front-line fighters... when they're going up against the other nations of Thedas. They've managed to take down trained chevaliers (cavalry of Orlais) and they can be very unnerving.

 

But for Darkspawn? Darkspawn don't scare easily, if at all.

 

Finally, he then has the men under his command -- men who hail from Denerim and Gwaren, if you look at the heraldry on the shields -- charge straight out into the open, exposing them to the Darkspawn on all sides which can lead to a double envelopment. They'd have nowhere to go and be attacked from all sides. You can even clearly see Cailan using his greatsword to tell his men to make the charge.

 

As was mentioned, we missed the signal to light the beacon (which Alistair ends up contradicting by saying the battle could be won. Though one must note we don't even have a window to look out of in the first place. Thanks Bioware!). Alistair's comments tell us we missed the signal, but then he doesn't even bother to see if the Darkspawn are fully committed (which was kinda the more important part of the arrangement).

 

Loghain sums it up well in many points of the game, but perhaps the best one is if he's recruited and you talk to him about Ostagar in a "You traitor" mentality.

 

(Paraphrase): There's no possible chance that because Cailan insisted on leading the charge against my own advice, he contributed to the failure that was Ostagar! Because Cailan died, he must be absolved of all guilt, and because I lived, all the guilt must fall to me!

 

Loghain does bear some blame for the battle failing, but so too does Cailan, the Wardens (us included), the Chantry, and even in a meta-sense Bioware itself for not really writing things properly to make it seem like it wasn't a gigantic clusterfuck plot device.

 

Ostagar failing is something that I can get behind and even keeping the implications alive as well, but they didn't really bother to keep things consistent (with characters or whatever) and instead just kinda went "We need a losing battle. We'll make it this one. Details? Meh, why do we need to do things in sufficient detail in here?".

 

Did they put enough in to convince me it was a lost cause? Yes. Did they write the battle to maximize the potential of Ostagar? Not really.

 

Fair enough. But I don't think the timing of the signal (assuming it was too late, rather than perhaps not delayed or not significantly delayed at all) can get Loghain off the hook. From Loghain's POV he logically can't know the signal was late, because the only measure is the signal itself. If he knew the signal was ill-timed and a charge wouldn't accomplish much, that implies that he had independent knowledge of the battlefield,which makes the timing of the signal redundant. And if he did, why didn't he react earlier? And why was he still waiting, as he would have already known that the moment to charge had already passed?

 

Concerning the column, it only equals inevitable defeat for me if I assume that he's a poor general whose about to commit his entire force in one push without protecting his flank. The darkspawn numbers entering could be held off by a smaller force while the mass is defeated, and then the entire army could be committed to defeating those entering. The darkspawn at the head of column entering the valley would then be continually cut down by a larger army before they can form an equal force. Or alternatively, when the bulk of the horde is defeated both armies can then retreat away from the other approaching darkspawn. No need to let a  massacre happen.

 

(just a thought - maybe the column is Loghain's army retreating?)

 

But that is all just speculation (encouraged no doubt in part by playing too much Total War before I got into playing rolepaying games). There's no sign that this is part of Loghain's actual thought processes which is the crucial issue for me. He looks at a signal he can't logically know for sure is late, and then withdraws.

 

The best I could say is that he might have accidently made the right decision, if one is prepared to make certain assumptions. But in that he's just lucky.

 

Duncan tells us that we have less then an hour to light the signal. So no, Loghain has more then "just the signal" to go off of. He has a rough estimate of how long it should take to get to the top of the tower and survey the field. When an hour passes and no signal appears, what is he left to think? The Wardens are in full control of the tower, something Loghain did not particularly care for.

 

Look at the checkered history of the Wardens. They once served Orlais as their agents to spread their influence, were exiled for rebelling against a Fereldan king, hold to a belief that they'll do ANYTHING in order to defeat the Blight, were seen by Loghain to have been colluding with not only a Darkspawn but also an Orlesian Mage willing to sell Maric to the Emperor (Loghain didn't have the full story though, which is very important), and were... pretty damn unhelpful at Ostagar. Their silence on why they're needed and refusal to really reign in Cailan led to him feeling so confident in their prowess that he wanted to fight on the front lines, despite having no heir named. It contributed to his glory-hounding persona.

 

And the signal comes late. Not only late, but at a point where the forces under Cailan's command are cracking under pressure. So from his perspective they held off so that Loghain would charge at the wrong moment and Ferelden would lose both its king and general and fall to petty infighting in the subsequent power vacuum, thus paving the way for Orlais to swoop in under pretense of "fighting the Blight" as they had done to Nevarra in the past and Kirkwall during the Qunari Wars, but then never leave. From his perspective, the Wardens went back to their days as serving Orlesian interests, even if it meant throwing their own men at Ostagar under the bus in order to defeat the Darkspawn.

 

It's undoubtedly paranoid and wrong, but it makes sense in its own way.

 

THAT SAID, this is a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't moment for the Wardens. Loghain doesn't trust the Wardens (can't say I blame him. They didn't do much to exactly foster trust or a belief in why they're important). If they hadn't lit the beacon, Loghain probably would have assumed they were doing so because they were trying to get the king killed. And we see what happens when they do light the beacon (at the wrong time).

 

All of this could have been avoided had the Wardens endeavored to foster trust between Loghain and them by calling a secret meeting between him, Cailan, and them and informing them of why they're necessary in the first place. Duncan and his group did the same for Maric (FAR more openly, in fact). And perhaps even had Loghain known that the Tower was overrun by Darkspawn, which was unforeseen by everyone and implied to be a result of the Wardens sharing a communion with the Darkspawn hive-mind.

 

(Loghain's lack of knowledge on Ostagar's layout is due to Bioware's inconsistent writing of his character, sad to say.)

 

The column is most assuredly NOT Loghain's army retreating. You can see the column before you even enter Ishal. How would Loghain manage to be retreating before the signal's sent up and then be back in place to view the signal and then say "Oh yeah, we need to retreat now. ****'s fucked"? To say nothing of how going deeper into the Darkspawn horde doesn't constitute a retreat... it constitutes suicide.

 

That's why Morrigan tells you that if you want to go and rescue survivors (which would probably be ghouls by the time we got to them, if not dead already), you'd have to go into the full depth of the Wilds where the horde is thickest.

 

Riverdaleswhiteflash made the point well enough regarding the view of the beacon.

 

I can promise you the stream of light we can see from the bridge, going straight into the battlefield from the Wilds, well before you light the signal, is not Loghain's army retreating. Furthermore, I don't see much hope for your idea that Loghain could protect his flank from a darkspawn column large enough to provide it. If nothing else the darkspawn could keep throwing themselves at the army until the soldiers making it up were exhausted. Go back through the thread and you'll see a screenshot that might explain these opinions.

 

As for your argument that Loghain would need independent knowledge of the battlefield to know not to charge, all he has to not know to make the signal necessary is whether there are more darkspawn coming to flank his flankers. I don't think it's that hard to picture a scenario in which he can see the field well enough to know that there's spawn coming as long as they maintain a constant stream of advancing spawn (which from all we can see they do), but can't see well enough from his vantage that he's willing to charge without people at a higher elevation telling him he's clear to (in case there's a 500 foot break in the column that he's mistaking for the end of the column.)

 

 

And I also have to take issue with the "send a smaller detachment to keep the Darkspawn occupied until the main body is defeated, thus allowing the army to regroup and get ready".

 

The whole point of the strategy was to charge when you know the Darkspawn are all there so you can surround them. It's the Hammer and Anvil strategy (though because of engine limitations meaning no horses, not the typical use of it).

 

Even if Loghain had done that and it hadn't compromised his position, those soldiers wouldn't have lasted long enough for Loghain's remaining men to make up the difference. They would have been swallowed up and decimated, if not by Ogres and Darkspawn Mages then certainly by the Darkspawn's superior numbers alone.

 

 

Do you really think with a column that long could be held off by a smaller force? At best, it would only distract some of the immediate ones while many more just circled around and keep charging and then we'd be right back to the point of Loghain's men being sandwiched between two groups of Darkspawn.

 

Images were pulled from KoP's blog post on the subject of Ostagar on the old BSN years ago, though they originally belong to Monica21. Take a gander if you wish.

[TEWR]

Anora didn't tell you to kill Howe, but you had to eliminate the mages to release her and once you confronted the mages and Howe, a fight to the death was pretty much inevitable. Howe could have fled or surrendered, but in his arrogance (and madness) he chose to fight and got what he deserved, so there was never really an option to take him alive. Unless you are a Cousland, there is no reason to assert that the Warden went into the Arl of Denerim's Estate with the intention of killing Howe. The Warden went to rescue Anora; that a confrontation took place and Howe was killed is not indicative of intention.

 

Fairly certain the Warden, no matter the origin, can act as if they wish to kill Howe (at least upon confronting him I think).

 

Also a City Elf would have plenty of reasons to go in there with that intention in mind. Dalish or Circle Elf less so, but still could if they feel kinship to their Alienage brothers and sisters.

[Xandurpein]

When it comes to killing Howe, I think a lot of people argue from a far too modern point of view. In a medival feudal setting, such as in Dragon Age, the Rule of Law is much weaker than in a modern world. The victor writes the rules. This is because the rules are embodied much more by the ruler than by the law. It's true that if you break traditions, your peers may turn against you. For example, Loghain breaks the laws and traditions when he sells elves into slavery. This costs him esteem and votes at the Landsmeet, but there's no question of impeachment, prosecution or similar modern ideas.

Ultimately it's up to Anora to decide if what Howe did was treachery or not, and she choses to endorse his death, so justice is done. This why the game doesn't call upon us to consult the laws or a magister to decide if Loghain should live or not. At that particular moment, you, the Warden, ARE the law.