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Should Loghain Live or Die?


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#1851
Icy Magebane

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The only time I am comfortable with sparing  Loghain is when I'm playing as a Cousland who wants to become king.  Keeping Anora happy is more important than appeasing Alistair, especially since Loghain will ultimately die killing the Archdemon.  It's unfortunate that  Alistair won't listen to reason, but I suppose his stubbornness is what makes it a difficult decision.  If the Warden has no option to become king, however, then there is no reason to support Anora and thus Loghain's life is forfeit.  Although I think that Anora is a far better ruler than Alistair could ever be, I don't play as patriotic Wardens, and whoever rules Ferelden is very low on their list of priorities.

 

The bottom line is that since either Alistair or Loghain will die killing the Archdemon, it doesn't really matter to me which of them survives the Landsmeet.  It really just comes down to whether or not Anora's satisfaction with the outcome is a factor.



#1852
Periculo

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Desertion is punishable by death. Case closed.


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#1853
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Desertion is punishable by death. Case closed.

If you take your army with you, and intend to fight that same foe using that army after getting reinforcements, it's not desertion. (If you have the authority to do so, which Loghain kinda did.) Desertion is when you go back home, grab your mother and sister (or Templar husband as applicable), and flee across the ocean.


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#1854
Dabrikishaw

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The only time I am comfortable with sparing  Loghain is when I'm playing as a Cousland who wants to become king.  Keeping Anora happy is more important than appeasing Alistair, especially since Loghain will ultimately die killing the Archdemon.  It's unfortunate that  Alistair won't listen to reason, but I suppose his stubbornness is what makes it a difficult decision.  If the Warden has no option to become king, however, then there is no reason to support Anora and thus Loghain's life is forfeit.  Although I think that Anora is a far better ruler than Alistair could ever be, I don't play as patriotic Wardens, and whoever rules Ferelden is very low on their list of priorities.

 

The bottom line is that since either Alistair or Loghain will die killing the Archdemon, it doesn't really matter to me which of them survives the Landsmeet.  It really just comes down to whether or not Anora's satisfaction with the outcome is a factor.

I have a King Warden that had Alistair kill Loghain. The King Warden performed the Dark Ritual with a romanced Morrigan.


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#1855
Icy Magebane

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I have a King Warden that had Alistair kill Loghain. The King Warden performed the Dark Ritual with a romanced Morrigan.

And I'm sure that worked out well for you.  The Dark Ritual, however, isn't an option for me. ;)



#1856
Dabrikishaw

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And I'm sure that worked out well for you.  The Dark Ritual, however, isn't an option for me. ;)

Think it will backfire too hard to consider it, or is it a roleplaying concern?



#1857
Icy Magebane

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Think it will backfire too hard to consider it, or is it a roleplaying concern?

Mainly a few roleplaying concerns, but I guess the long term consequences are related to that...  Devout Andrastians will not even consider bringing an abomination into the world and will take their chances against the Archdemon.   Having survived countless battles with the darkspawn, they see no reason to believe they will fail to get Riordan or Loghain/Alistair into position to make the kill.  If that fails, then they'll just have to kill the Archdemon themselves.  Fleeing the battle never enters their minds, and Morrigan's suggestion that they can survive making the killing blow and become living legends falls on deaf ears.

 

Even when I played as characters who hated the Chantry and/or agreed with Morrigan's "survival of the fittest" mentality, those characters were never willing to give her control over a being with that much potential power.  In those cases, I reach that point and ask myself, "How does this benefit me?"  In the long run, Morrigan benefits from the deal far more than the Warden, and there is no reason to help her.  After all, why would a selfish, manipulative Warden want to create a powerful rival that might oppose his future schemes?

 

So yeah... just like the Ultimate Sacrifice, I did it once out of curiosity, but over the course of many, many serious playthroughs, I have yet to create a character who has a good reason to perform to the Dark Ritual.  Many people have, but not me.  *shrugs*



#1858
Riven326

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By the time I got to the Landsmeet I honestly had mixed feelings. I didn't want to kill him, that never crossed my mind. I wanted him to face justice. Alistair was the one who really wanted to kill him. It's probably the hardest choice to make in the game. Since judicial justice (putting him in prison) isn't an option, the only real options are to kill him or let him join the Wardens. There may be a third option, I don't know.

 

I personally think Loghain should be punished for his crimes. I certainly wouldn't trust him or want him in the Wardens at all. So, I suppose death is the only real option.



#1859
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Since judicial justice (putting him in prison) isn't an option, the only real options are to kill him or let him join the Wardens. There may be a third option, I don't know.

None is given. Apparently the Tabletop RPG states that Ferelden isn't entirely okay with long prison terms.

 

Anyway, despite not really seeing Ostagar as entirely his fault, and seeing where he was coming from on the question of the Civil War, I actually agree with you as to what needs to be done if prison can't be. Even if he wasn't guilty of some legitimately heinous stuff, he's the Warden's enemy. He does end up giving in after being defeated, and doesn't betray the Warden, but the Warden's kind of overly trusting to depend on this.


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#1860
Aren

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tossed a coin:

head for Alistair

cross for Loghain



#1861
Kamon89

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He should die; how can we ever trust him on the field of battle or in the halls of the Landsmeet ever again?



#1862
Jaison1986

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None is given. Apparently the Tabletop RPG states that Ferelden isn't entirely okay with long prison terms.

 

Anyway, despite not really seeing Ostagar as entirely his fault, and seeing where he was coming from on the question of the Civil War, I actually agree with you as to what needs to be done if prison can't be. Even if he wasn't guilty of some legitimately heinous stuff, he's the Warden's enemy. He does end up giving in after being defeated, and doesn't betray the Warden, but the Warden's kind of overly trusting to depend on this.

 

The warden is already overly trusting by recruiting people like Sten, Zevran and Shale. And most players do it anyway. So unless an player in particular does not recruit any of these folk, they really can't use that card.



#1863
Ashevajak

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In response to the OP: Yes.  Loghain should live or die.

 

Being some kind of undead half-living abombination is really no sort of option whatsoever. 


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#1864
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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The warden is already overly trusting by recruiting people like Sten, Zevran and Shale. And most players do it anyway. So unless an player in particular does not recruit any of these folk, they really can't use that card.

Yes they can. Just because they're stupid enough to trust those three doesn't mean they have to take in a fourth person who could kill them in their sleep.



#1865
Jaison1986

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Yes they can. Just because they're stupid enough to trust those three doesn't mean they have to take in a fourth person who could kill them in their sleep.

 

No they cannot. Zevran tried to kill you just as much as Loghain, Sten as far as the Warden knows is an cold blooded murderer, and Shale is not even an person, an complete unknown. My point stands. Anyone that is willing to recruit any of these people can't refuse to recruit Loghain by the logic that he can't be trusted. That would be hypocrisy.


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#1866
TEWR

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I have to agree with the general sentiment Jaison expresses, more or less. You could argue once bitten twice shy if any of the three had attempted to kill you, but only then. But if you recruit an assassin who was sent to kill you and don't work to bring him on your side and befriend him, it's really your own fault in the first place. Same thing goes with Shale if you bring her to the Anvil of the Void and destroy it.

 

You should've seen that one coming.

 

As it stands, since those three can be good friends saying you won't trust Loghain because he's a murderer does seem to be cherrypicking through the reasoning.


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#1867
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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No they cannot. Zevran tried to kill you just as much as Loghain, Sten as far as the Warden knows is an cold blooded murderer, and Shale is not even an person, an complete unknown. My point stands. Anyone that is willing to recruit any of these people can't refuse to recruit Loghain by the logic that he can't be trusted. That would be hypocrisy.

So they're supposed to continuously risk their lives the same way for the sake of not being a hypocrite? Besides, Loghain had spent the last year continuously trying to kill them. Zevran tried once, and Sten and Shale never made attempts against the Warden specifically. (Or at least not if they were properly handled, though TEWR rightly points out if they weren't properly handled the Warden starts having very good reason not do do this.)

 

Edit: Also, I wonder which spec Aren's first Inquisitor is going to be?



#1868
dragonflight288

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So they're supposed to continuously risk their lives the same way for the sake of not being a hypocrite? Besides, Loghain had spent the last year continuously trying to kill them. Zevran tried once, and Sten and Shale never made attempts against the Warden specifically. (Or at least not if they were properly handled.)

 

They're continually risking their lives by recruiting Sten, Zevran and Shale. Morrigan says it well when you recruit Zevran, "I'd check my food and drink more carefully were I you from here on."

 

I'm not saying you don't have a point, but the simple act of recruiting someone based on what they've done and potential for danger is overlooked with these three regularly, and hardly ever for Loghain. 

 

Although, if Loghain survives Origins, he appears in Awakening and shows a great deal of respect towards the Warden, and tells a Cousland who married Anora that he expects grandchildren. It's kind of funny since he's the one saying it. 


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#1869
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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They're continually risking their lives by recruiting Sten, Zevran and Shale. Morrigan says it well when you recruit Zevran, "I'd check my food and drink more carefully were I you from here on."

 

I'm not saying you don't have a point, but the simple act of recruiting someone based on what they've done and potential for danger is overlooked with these three regularly, and hardly ever for Loghain.

Maybe recruiting Loghain isn't the smartest answer to this contradiction? (Now, if you do recruit Zevran, more power to you. I do too. I'm just saying that without metagame knowledge, it's maybe not the smartest idea to do so.)


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#1870
ummiehummie

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He made some bad decision and bad moves true. Like listening to Howe too much. I am not saying that Loghain is innocent, far from it. However most of the "crimes" prescribed for him, are not directly his.

 

So for 100% he is guilty in slavery, i can't deny that. He is also indirectly guilty in other crimes. Is it worthy of death? i really don't think so.

 

 

 

 

So.. I read somewhere (In one of those forums I think. IDK ANYMORE) that David Gaider said that Loghain had absolutely no idea about the slavery thing untill before the landsmeet. He knew the Tevinter magisters arrived, but he thought it was to cure the elves. (orsomethinglikethat)

 

Again, I'm not sure if this is what he exactly said, but it was something along those lines. Atleast, the part I read about it.



#1871
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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So.. I read somewhere (In one of those forums I think. IDK ANYMORE) that David Gaider said that Loghain had absolutely no idea about the slavery thing untill before the landsmeet. He knew the Tevinter magisters arrived, but he thought it was to cure the elves. (orsomethinglikethat)

 

Again, I'm not sure if this is what he exactly said, but it was something along those lines. Atleast, the part I read about it.

... Really?



#1872
Ryriena

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Then, why does he say that he was responsible for the slavery issues in the Alienage at the landmeets by saying it was for money to fund the war that I had started. As a southerner in America, I find him disguting and he dies in my play throughs, although I have kept him at least once alive too see what happens during the scene.

#1873
ummiehummie

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... Really?

Found it! Here is what it says:

 

"It was actually confirmed via the Bioware Devs on Twitter that Loghain had no idea about the slavery; the Tevinter magisters created the "Plague" in the Alienage, and Loghain authorized the removal of the sick elves in the belief that the magisters could cure them of said plague and because that's what you often had to do in such communities in the past; either remove the sick ones and limit the spread of the disease, or doom everyone to a slow and painful death.

Only later (albeit before the Landsmeet, in which he creates a great speech about it all being "necessary" for the war) did he truly understand who he had been dealing with."

 

AND

 

"David Gaider's own words on Loghain going to Ostagar & more (accessed on the Bioware Dragon Age forums, thread name "The Complete Defense of Loghain Mac Tir") was as follows:

"In my mind, Loghain did not go to Ostagar expecting to walk away from the battle. It was clear, however, that he and Cailan were already having profound disagreements -- mainly centering on Cailan's overtures to Orlais. Loghain was obviously moving to confront Cailan in some way, undercutting his access to allies and so forth. But did Loghain plan on killing Cailan? No, I don't think that. I think he was doing what Loghain does, and trying to ensure that if that moment of confrontation with Cailan came the battle was already won."

"That said, he had been fighting the darkspawn for some time in the south with Cailan there, and had already seen what Cailan was capable of. I think he made preparations prior to that last battle for the possibility that he would have to walk away. He once made a promise to Maric that he would never allow one man to be more important than the Kingdom -- and in his eyes Cailan was recklessly endangering both himself and his kingdom. Whether that error in judgement condemns him right there is up to you."

"There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together -- Loghain was committed, as it were, and after Ostagar doubly so. For all his faults, Loghain is not a man to waver once a decision is made -- good or bad. The only reason he gives up, in the end, is because he sees that there is someone else beside himself who can save Ferelden, someone who hasn't made the mistakes he has. The burden does not rest entirely on his shoulders -- which, yes, is how he feels."

"The darkspawn forces were getting stronger with each engagement. Loghain knew that, and knew that it wasn't going to keep being so easy. I would say that he knew what might happen the minute Cailan made his absymal strategy clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind, Loghain still wasn't certain that he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Certainly the darkspawn horde at the last battle was far bigger than anyone had anticipated.""


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#1874
Aimi

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Thank goodness none of that is actually in the game, so I don't have to pay attention to it.

Making Loghain into an incompetent stooge for his own underlings and allies does nothing to rescue his character, and it certainly doesn't make him look any smarter or better at his job. I make no secret of disapproving of almost everything Loghain does over the course of Origins, but I at least held him in higher regard than just "patsy".
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#1875
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Found it! Here is what it says:

 

"It was actually confirmed via the Bioware Devs on Twitter that Loghain had no idea about the slavery; the Tevinter magisters created the "Plague" in the Alienage, and Loghain authorized the removal of the sick elves in the belief that the magisters could cure them of said plague and because that's what you often had to do in such communities in the past; either remove the sick ones and limit the spread of the disease, or doom everyone to a slow and painful death.

Only later (albeit before the Landsmeet, in which he creates a great speech about it all being "necessary" for the war) did he truly understand who he had been dealing with."

 

... Really? I mean, I can see evidence in game for the Ostagar stuff, but this just strikes me as just made up after the fact and not really supported by the game itself.


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