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Should Loghain Live or Die?


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#1901
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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The Fiona/Goldanna thing has similar problems in that if you recruit Loghain, he says that Maric said he didn't acknowledge Alistair as son for fear of turning Rowan into a concubine in the eyes of the people of Ferelden. The problem there is that Rowan was already long dead when Maric first met Fiona. He was unmarried at the time and a dead woman can't be reduced to the status of concubine. Loghain's dialogue in DA:O implied that Alistair was born while Rowan still lived. The whole Fiona retcon has timeline issues and creates problems with both Alistair and Loghain's dialogue implying that Alistair had been conceived through infidelity.

Okay, but that doesn't mean much as far as evidence of who the mother herself was.



#1902
dragonflight288

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Exactly. I think initially as a Warden I say kill the Darkspawn, but then I thought about it politically. Only fools argue about ruling the cabin while it burns down around them. In this case I saw a similar situation. Alistair whining about morals, and justice of one man, and people arguing about who should lead Ferelden. In my head I'm thinking... why the hell does this matter right now? We need to stomp out the threat killing, and poisoning our lands. Lets handle that, and then talk about this in a calm, logical manner. I would think by the time of the Landsmeet, everyone is aware just how bad the Darkspawn situation has gotten. The Darkspawn aren't like wars with Orlais or something, it's fighting feral creatures. They don't give a crap who's leading, or that were trying to handle a civil war. I know it's not technically the right way of going about it, but how often do we take on a threat like this? I just don't see the point of getting holed up in a castle, and pointing fingers.

 

I make a strong push for Loghain, because despite what he's done recently, he is still very respected. People listen to him, and would fight for him in war. Not to mention he has a brilliant military mind, and is still a very capable fighter. I just don't see the point to just kill him, and waste his skill for the fight that's ahead. I understand people's argument if they are going about it personally, but at the moment, we can't get caught up in making big decisions based on personal feelings. It's not about making it up to poor Alistair, it's what can we use against the Darkspawn?

 

I agree. Plus, Riordan is a Senior Grey Warden and he suggests recruiting Loghain, and says there are compelling reasons why we need as many Grey Wardens as we can get. I'll take his word, a man who went through his Joining with Duncan, over what Grey Warden's should do than Alistair's who had only been a Warden six months longer than I, gave me command the moment it was just two, and didn't seem to know more about fighting the archdemon than I did. Riordan has more credibility. 

 

That, and Alistair claiming to take the throne just to get a man executed is the worst possible reason to want to be king. I lost a lot of respect for him over that.

 

I really like Alistair, but his attitude at the Landsmeet is thoroughly unacceptable. 

 

It was in one of my more recent playthroughs that I let Loghain live, took him to Ostagar in RtO, listened to him banter with my companions, and talked with him, and I think I grew to respect him. 

 

Now, I'm not saying I'm justifying hiring a blood mage (Jowan) to poison a noble, working with Howe, selling elves to Tevinter, and such worth defending, but I do get his reasons for abandoning Ostagar, and I don't give him sole blame for the Civil War. He has some share of it, yes, but every noble who stood against him during a flipping blight, whether for idealistic reasons like Teagan, or to take advantage of the power vacuum, each of them also have a share of the blame. 

 

 

The problem is that Loghain doesn't follow that mantra either. Does it bother you that he refuses reinforcements just because they come from Orlais? That he betrayed his King so he could take over? That he poisons an Arl with a large army for political reasons?

 

He was accepting reinforcements from the Free Marches, as per DA2, Lord Herriman was sending soldiers and supplies. Add in Orlais' history during the Third Blight of going to Nevarra to 'help' and then never leaving, and I say he has a very valid concern. Especially given how Orlais treats the people they occupy. And it's no secret that Orlais wants Ferelden back.

 

He was arguing with Cailan for days, trying his best to keep the King off the field of battle giving the very real truth that it was too dangerous and Cailan wanted nothing to do with it. Even had he made the charge, there is no guarantee it would have saved Cailan's or Duncan's life, and he and his men most likely would have been flanked themselves. The darkspawn are still pouring out of the wilds in-game when we have that brief overview before we see Cailan's and Duncan's last stand. A tactical retreat was the best call there, and had Cailan listened to Loghain from the beginning, he would not have been abandoned.

 

The poisoning thing does bother me, and I will not make any attempt to justify it, or selling elves into slavery. 


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#1903
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@ Natureguy85

 

Well sure those things bothered me, but at the end of the day, he chose to stand and fight with us. Alistair basically said "Fine, I'm out... Duncan didn't get his way, so millions upon millions should die". Hell in my eyes, that was worse than what Loghain did. Loghain left the battlefield in Ostagar, but Alistair left Ferelden to die. But like I also said.... we can't view morals too much, and things done in the past. We have to worry about the threat that's broken through our front door, and worry about leaders, and justice later.

 

About Orlais, I've heard so many conspiracy theories, I can't even count... so I can only shrug on that one. What I will say, is if we put that much stock into Orlais, we were playing with fire to begin with.

 

Just so you know also... I am by no means a Loghain lover. If the situation was lighter, I would execute Loghain for what he did. But considering what is going on... it's not logically sound IMO.


  • dragonflight288 aime ceci

#1904
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I agree. Plus, Riordan is a Senior Grey Warden and he suggests recruiting Loghain, and says there are compelling reasons why we need as many Grey Wardens as we can get. I'll take his word, a man who went through his Joining with Duncan, over what Grey Warden's should do than Alistair's who had only been a Warden six months longer than I, gave me command the moment it was just two, and didn't seem to know more about fighting the archdemon than I did. Riordan has more credibility. 

 

That, and Alistair claiming to take the throne just to get a man executed is the worst possible reason to want to be king. I lost a lot of respect for him over that.

 

I really like Alistair, but his attitude at the Landsmeet is thoroughly unacceptable. 

 

It was in one of my more recent playthroughs that I let Loghain live, took him to Ostagar in RtO, listened to him banter with my companions, and talked with him, and I think I grew to respect him. 

 

Ugh you are reading my mind. I liked Alistair up until the Landsmeet, and then seeing his attitude was just disgusting. I mean wanting to take the throne in order to get someone killed? It was like a light-hearted Joffrey Baratheon move. Spot on.

 

And for some reason, taking Loghain to RtO never crossed my mind, but now sounds very interesting. I will definitely take your word on growing to respect him, his banter must have been very enlightening. I can only imagine what he talked about, or if he regretted what he had done.


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#1905
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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And for some reason, taking Loghain to RtO never crossed my mind, but now sounds very interesting. I will definitely take your word on growing to respect him, his banter must have been very enlightening. I can only imagine what he talked about, or if he regretted what he had done.

Did you want to find out for yourself? Because I can tell you the teal deer version of what he said.


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#1906
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Did you want to find out for yourself? Because I can tell you the teal deer version of what he said.

 

Actually yeah, if you don't mind. I've beaten the game a dozen times, so I'm only missing out on that part.



#1907
Bardox9

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I make Loghain a Warden. The biggest mistake, IMO, that King Cailan made was being down in the middle of the battle at Ostagar. Allistair as King safely away from the battle field and the experienced war hero general in the middle of the dog fight makes more sense to me.

 

Besides, "we need all the wardens we can get."


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#1908
dragonflight288

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Actually yeah, if you don't mind. I've beaten the game a dozen times, so I'm only missing out on that part.

 

There's some pretty good dialogue Loghain has with your companions. Some don't get along with him at all, he gets on great with your Dog and gives quite a tragic story on what happened to his own Mabari, gives some pretty enlightening information on his attitude at Ostagar with Sten, and has some pretty hilarious dialogue with Zevran. 

 

That, added in to what he said in conversation with me, at the least made me respect him. 

 

His dialogue with Wynne during RtO, however, is really good. Heated between the two, but good. 


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#1909
Natureguy85

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The Fiona/Goldanna thing has similar problems in that if you recruit Loghain, he says that Maric said he didn't acknowledge Alistair as son for fear of turning Rowan into a concubine in the eyes of the people of Ferelden. The problem there is that Rowan was already long dead when Maric first met Fiona. He was unmarried at the time and a dead woman can't be reduced to the status of concubine. Loghain's dialogue in DA:O implied that Alistair was born while Rowan still lived. The whole Fiona retcon has timeline issues and creates problems with both Alistair and Loghain's dialogue implying that Alistair had been conceived through infidelity.

 

Where does Fiona come in? I don't remember any of that at all. So Alistair is half elf? That's not in the games is it? Wiki says its from one of the books, which is exactly why I generally don't like these outside sources



#1910
Andreas Amell

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When it came to decide I had a human mage. Although I chose to pursue answers to why Loghain betrayed Cailan, I had to consider other factors.

 

1. I helped the blood mage, Jowan, escape the Circle and then worked to have him redeem himself for his crimes in Redcliffe.I sent him back to the Circle later.

2. I didn't prod Lelianna to kill Marjolaine for sending assassins and her act of betrayal.

3. I was conscripted into the Grey Wardens to avoid punishment from the Circle. I don't have any real loyalty to those who died at Ostagar, but having fought with them, and with Alistair, I felt some obligation to see they got justice.

4. I spared Zevran's life despite his attempt to kill me.

 

What Loghain did was far worse than what I was forgiving for the rest. But I was willing accept his surrender until Riordan suggested he be put through the Joining. Regardess of what the Grey Wardens stand for, I could not allow a traitor like Loghain leading the newly gathered forces. A line had to be drawn.



#1911
Dosan

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Loghain tried to kill the Warden a hundred times if not more, you shouldn't trust him, killing him is the best way to kinda make the Warden safe, and in the meantime it allows to take your revenge. So Loghain should D.I.E. !



#1912
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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And, if I do, here's a thought. Why if I choose Loghain is it still Redcliffe soldiers during the Final Battle and not Loghain's men? Where did they go? At least that simple change of soldiers bearing Loghain's colors would have made a big difference in knowing what was done was so because it was in the best interests for Ferelden.

I am almost willing to swear that I heard some of the soldiers at the Gate in Denerim invoking Loghain's memory as a battlecry. (I'd also like to note that if you turn him into a Warden, Loghain has no men. He loses his command of them. There should still be men in Gwaren colors, but he can't use his authority to command that there should be because we've seen what he does with authority.)

 

The only in-game proof paints, in my opinion, a very dark picture of a fallen hero doing very villainous acts since his decision at Ostagar. And, while I concede his decision at Ostagar leans more toward justified than not, should everything since that "tactical retreat" be ignored?

I'm defending Ostagar here. The rest of it is somewhat harder to justify.



#1913
Jerkules17

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Let him live. Dying wont punish him,letting him live a grim,and some what painful life as a warden is a far better punishment. Remembering all his mistakes,and people he killed/let die its the same thing I did in Dragon Age 2 with a certain someone. 



#1914
Lady Artifice

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It's been confirmed by Mike Laidlaw that Fiona is Alistair's mother.

 

It's a retcon, pretty much as simple as that. They made the decision that they didn't want Maric to cheat on Rowan after they'd fleshed the character of Maric out.

 

Or...If you want a headcanon for it, Loghain was mistaken. Usually is.

 

I always want to spare Loghain, but not because I think he's actually a hero, nor because I think being a Grey Warden is the right punishment in an of itself, but because it comes with him knowing-really knowing-that his actions (attempting to kill all of the people capable of killing the archdemon, who is in fact, real) would have doomed his beloved Ferelden (and perhaps the world) if we hadn't stopped him. That is rather an excellent realization for him to endure. Additionally, it does seem foolish to slaughter him feet away from his daughter who Alistair is all to happy to let have the throne right afterward. Also, most of my characters are not the type to put vengeance over survival, and don't actually think Alistair's personal heartbreak over Duncan and the other Grey Warden is enough of a reason to turn away a powerful tool in ending the Blight. 

 

My general affection for, and typical tendency to romance Alistair is all that ever leads me to kill Loghain at all. If I'm NOT in a romance with him, then hardened Alistair made King and left in Denerim it is. From my character's perspective, it keeps him safe from Anora trying to eliminate him...probably. 


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#1915
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There's some pretty good dialogue Loghain has with your companions. Some don't get along with him at all, he gets on great with your Dog and gives quite a tragic story on what happened to his own Mabari, gives some pretty enlightening information on his attitude at Ostagar with Sten, and has some pretty hilarious dialogue with Zevran. 

 

That, added in to what he said in conversation with me, at the least made me respect him. 

 

His dialogue with Wynne during RtO, however, is really good. Heated between the two, but good. 

 

Wow trying to imagine Zevran and Loghain having an actual conversation. Yeah, I bet his talk with Wynne was good. Thank you btw, I still can't believe doing this myself never crossed my mind.


  • dragonflight288 aime ceci

#1916
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Wow trying to imagine Zevran and Loghain having an actual conversation. Yeah, I bet his talk with Wynne was good. Thank you btw, I still can't believe doing this myself never crossed my mind.

http://dragonage.wik...hain_and_Zevran


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#1917
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Thank you, and wow I can't believe all the banter I missed. The talks between Loghain and Wynne, and Dog were very.... telling. However, the talk with Zevran actually made me laugh out loud.


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#1918
Kenshen

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I make Loghain a Warden. The biggest mistake, IMO, that King Cailan made was being down in the middle of the battle at Ostagar. Allistair as King safely away from the battle field and the experienced war hero general in the middle of the dog fight makes more sense to me.

 

Besides, "we need all the wardens we can get."

 

I never did really get this part.  If every warden is needed then why is Alistair allowed to stay out of the battle?  While one more GW probably doesn't change much overall in the final battle, will there even be a land to rule if that final battle and Denerim is lost?  I suppose I could accept it easier if it was just a political reason but it isn't but more a immature tantrum by someone more concerned with revenge than what is best for the country he claims to want to lead.  



#1919
Riven326

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He abandoned his king and is a traitor to Ferelden and the Grey Wardens. Yes, he should die.



#1920
dragonflight288

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He abandoned his king and is a traitor to Ferelden and the Grey Wardens. Yes, he should die.

 

Change the wording of this argument just a little, and you can condemn Alistair to the same fate. 

 

"He abandoned his country and his oath, and is a traitor to Ferelden and the Grey Wardens. Yes, he should die."

 

 

I never did really get this part.  If every warden is needed then why is Alistair allowed to stay out of the battle?  While one more GW probably doesn't change much overall in the final battle, will there even be a land to rule if that final battle and Denerim is lost?  I suppose I could accept it easier if it was just a political reason but it isn't but more a immature tantrum by someone more concerned with revenge than what is best for the country he claims to want to lead.  

 

Alistiar refuses to fight, and it's either imprison him or execute him otherwise, because he doesn't get his way.

 

Sure, he's a likeable guy throughout the game, and has great dialogue with Morrigan especially, but this scene alone shows his level of emotional maturity, or lack of it. 


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#1921
Kenshen

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Yeah I would execute him right there if the game allowed me too. I usually let Anora decide his fate now.



#1922
Riven326

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Change the wording of this argument just a little, and you can condemn Alistair to the same fate. 

 

"He abandoned his country and his oath, and is a traitor to Ferelden and the Grey Wardens. Yes, he should die."

 

Running away from your duty out of spite cannot be compared to leaving your king and the Grey Wardens to die on the battlefield, attempting to kill the remaining survivors, selling elves into slavery, allowing Arl Howe to torture innocent people, ignoring the blight, and so on. One could call Alistair a traitor to the Grey Wardens, but not Ferelden. And he certainly doesn't deserve death for it.


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#1923
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Change the wording of this argument just a little, and you can condemn Alistair to the same fate. 

 

"He abandoned his country and his oath, and is a traitor to Ferelden and the Grey Wardens. Yes, he should die." 

 

People kill me how they can seperate the two, like what Alistair was doing was noble, or some crap. Loghain left Cailan to die at Ostagar, we know this. What he did morally was wrong, but ultimately it was the best choice IMO. Had he just fallen in with Cailan into that fight, more than likely they would have all died, and taken not only the King of Ferelden out, but also your top military figure. And for what? To prove you are loyal? To hell with that, and not to mention; what would the mindset of Ferelden have been then? I think during that time, even if it was controversial.... salvage what you can, and live to fight another day, because I don't think we had a chance that day. Hell, I think Duncan actually agreed with Loghain, but I think his honor, and sense of protection for Cailan got the better of him. There were numerous times that when Duncan spoke to Cailan, you could imagine him just face palming, and rolling his eyes at the boy (which I think he did do actually). Cailan was obsessed with glory, and being his father, and that is a horrible trait for any leader. To further clarify, there is nothing wrong with wanting to be remembered, or to walk in your fathers footsteps. But that comes with time, and wisdom, and patience. Rushing to run out there and throw lives away to make your name? That is not the same thing.

 

Now back to Alistair. What do you say of someone that leaves their country to burn? I hear a lot of hate towards Loghain for abandonment, but Alistair was justified for denouncing the Wardens, and letting the entire country die? Because he didn't get his way? You will honestly tell me that Loghain was still more of a monster? You have got to be kidding me. The way I saw it was... Loghain gave up trying to talk to Cailan about being patient/logical, and really respecting, and honoring the role he had in the world, and finally said "fine, go be a hero then you idiot". At a certain point, you can't fight, or stop hard headed people from doing what they want, because you won't win.... especially those that hold the freaking crown.


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#1924
Lady Artifice

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People kill me how they can seperate the two, like what Alistair was doing was noble, or some crap. Loghain left Cailan to die at Ostagar, we know this. What he did morally was wrong, but ultimately it was the best choice IMO. Had he just fallen in with Cailan into that fight, more than likely they would have all died, and taken not only the King of Ferelden out, but also your top military figure. And for what? To prove you are loyal? To hell with that, and not to mention; what would the mindset of Ferelden have been then? I think during that time, even if it was controversial.... salvage what you can, and live to fight another day, because I don't think we had a chance that day. Hell, I think Duncan actually agreed with Loghain, but I think his honor, and sense of protection for Cailan got the better of him. There were numerous times that when Duncan spoke to Cailan, you could imagine him just face palming, and rolling his eyes at the boy (which I think he did do actually). Cailan was obsessed with glory, and being his father, and that is a horrible trait for any leader. To further clarify, there is nothing wrong with wanting to be remembered, or to walk in your fathers footsteps. But that comes with time, and wisdom, and patience. Rushing to run out there and throw lives away to make your name? That is not the same thing.

 

Now back to Alistair. What do you say of someone that leaves their country to burn? I hear a lot of hate towards Loghain for abandonment, but Alistair was justified for denouncing the Wardens, and letting the entire country die? Because he didn't get his way? You will honestly tell me that Loghain was still more of a monster? You have got to be kidding me. The way I saw it was... Loghain gave up trying to talk to Cailan about being patient/logical, and really respecting, and honoring the role he had in the world, and finally said "fine, go be a hero then you idiot". At a certain point, you can't fight, or stop hard headed people from doing what they want, because you won't win.... especially those that hold the freaking crown.

 

 

It's fair to say Alistair's reaction, and his choice to do abandon the saving of the world, is infuriating and wrong.

 

 

Perspective however, is also important. Alistair always acknowledges that he isn't always the sharpest tool in the shed...Not because he's actually stupid but because he feels more than he thinks. He feels the Grey Wardens are his salvation from the subjugation and futility of the chantry (and a dogma he doesn't believe in), he feels that that Duncan was like a father and the Grey Wardens like his family, and Loghain murdered them. His problem with Loghain being made a Grey Warden is that he sees it as a reward, the ultimate honor, and Loghain becoming one corrupts it for him.

 

You imply that while Loghain's actions at Ostagar are "morally wrong," they are strategically right.

 

They aren't. He nearly doomed Ferelden, maybe the world, because he was suspicious of a group that was composed of foreigners. His actions were not dictated by his former strategic prowess, but by his increasing demented paranoia.

 

You're also only considering one possible interpretation of Cailan's character. It's heavily implied in game that his outward persona might be more because of how most Fereldens want their King to be, rather than that being all that there is to him. Every action Cailan took such as insisting that Alistair(a possible canidate for the throne if Cailan fell) must be one of the Wardens to carry out the safest task at Ostagar, a willingness to divorce Anora and marry Celene for the sake of Ferelden despite the fact that he really has been enamored with Anora his whole life, and taking issue with Loghain's uncompromising, traditional, and uninventive (read: with diminishing returns against an ever growing force) strategy could be interpreted as a very savvy man putting on a show for his people.

 

What we heard:

 

"Loghain waits to bore me with his strategy."

 

Warning flag! Warning flag! WARNING FLAG!

 

What might have actually been meant:

 

"Loghain waits to bore me with his (increasing uneffective) strategy."

 

Oh....

 

 

 

I'm not saying it's certain. Cailan might be just as childish as juvenile as he appears.

 

 

Loghain however, is definitely not competent any longer. 

 

 

As to Alistair's choice to leave...I find it frustrating too, but it's important to remember that he doesn't know what we know. He doesn't know that the Blight can only be ended by a Grey Warden's hand, so he doesn't actually believe himself to be a deciding force in this.

 

I don't think that makes it right, but I'm absolutely certain it's one of the many things worth "trying to separate" him from Loghain. To suggest their choices are the same is...Hmm, problematic.



#1925
dragonflight288

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Running away from your duty out of spite cannot be compared to leaving your king and the Grey Wardens to die on the battlefield, attempting to kill the remaining survivors, selling elves into slavery, allowing Arl Howe to torture innocent people, ignoring the blight, and so on. One could call Alistair a traitor to the Grey Wardens, but not Ferelden. And he certainly doesn't deserve death for it.

 

Abandoning your duty out of spite doesn't compare to abandoning your duty to your king in favor of duty to your country?

 

So naive. Had Alistair did what he did in any medieval society, he would have been executed as a deserter. Had he done what he did as part of a Roman Legion, he would have been executed. Not only that, but he would be fully expected to fall on his own sword himself, as oathbreakerand losing his honor. And had he not been executed as a deserter or contender to the throne, just as in Awakening, you open the gate for more desertions, and desertions will break an army. 

 

Ideals, beliefs, solid values, these are all well and good. But too much of them, being blind to all beyond your own desires and emotional allowances, condemns you to foolish decision making and being unable to make the most prudent decision regarding various situations. Being blinded by the ideal of jusice for Cailan and Duncan makes you blind other viewpoints.

 

Regard or disregard Loghain's actions after Ostagar, every noble who fought him, every one, was also equally guilty of the crime you accuse him of, betraying the rightful ruler of Ferelden, in this case, Cailan's widow, Queen Anora. Even Teagan acknowledges her right to the throne in that first landsmeet. To condemn Loghain of betraying the throne is to also condemn Teagan once Cailan was dead and Anora now ruling. 

 

Trust me, you won't find anyone here in the forums defending Loghain's alliance with Howe, save in roleplaying or sheer pragmatism in regards to how much land and power Howe controlled after Ostagar, and even then those people acknowledge the man is a snake. Nor will you find anyone defending Loghain of selling elves to slavery. 

 

But you're foolish if you think sparing Loghain at the Landsmeet also means forgiving him and letting bygones be bygones, as is the case throughout the game when recruiting others. It may very well be you want a strategist. It may be you want to give more weight to Riordan's word over Alistair's as the senior Grey Warden and an old friend of Duncan's. Or you may want Loghain to lie in the bed he made, and serve forever in the very order he tried to destroy, or find some way to restore his honor. 

 

But know this, joining the Wardens is not an honor, it's a death sentence. A prolonged one should you survive the Joining, but you are condemning yourself to become a high-functioning ghoul, who will ultimately find their way to the darkspawn, or the darkspawn to them, the taint destroying you from the inside out, and being forever connected to the darkspawn and the archdemons. And if you roleplay a believer in the Chantry, the Warden who slays the Archdemon will never find their way to the seat of the Maker because their very soul is destroyed in the act of slaying an archdemon. 

 

From what I infer, and tell me if I'm wrong, you say Alistair is guilty of desertion, abandoning his country to death and destruction should the Warden, Loghain, and Riordan fail to get to the archdemon and slay it, but is not deserving of punishment, the men who betrayed their Queen also equally innocent of their role in the civil war and should also be spared blame, but Loghain and Howe, by virtue of Loghain abandoning Cailan at Ostagar despite making it clear time and again that the front lines were too dangerous for him, Loghain is deserving of a traitor's punishment, but Alistair in turn is not?