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[dragonflight288]

@ Arts of Artifice. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Alistair's and Loghain's actions are the same. But in terms of dooming Ferelden, Alistair took as much of a gamble as Loghain did should he abandon the Wardens. But Loghain does not have the knowledge that the archdemon is alive, there are no reports, and no one believes it is a blight either for most of the game. Alistair, however, does. 

 

Also, Loghain tried to keep Cailan off the battle, Cailan had none of it. Duncan urged Cailan to wait for Eamon, Cailan would have none of it. 

 

But to say that Loghain doomed Ferelden with his actions, is to also say Teagan doomed Ferelden with his words at the Landsmeet. 

[Riven326]

Abandoning your duty out of spite doesn't compare to abandoning your duty to your king in favor of duty to your country?

Not when it means your king ending up dead, your lands in civil war, working with slavers, and so forth. Alistair is guilty of abandoning Ferelden in its time of need. It doesn't compare to the atrocities committed under Loghain.

[dragonflight288]

Not when it means your king ending up dead, your lands in civil war, working with slavers, and so forth. Alistair is guilty of abandoning Ferelden in its time of need. It doesn't compare to the atrocities committed under Loghain.

 

Ah. So Loghain is fully responsible for every single thing that happens? No one else bares any blame whatsoever?

[WarriorOfLight999]

A quick sum up of some important Loghain facts

 

-Very traumatic childhood. Joins Maric/Rowan, fights off the rebels, sacrifices his own happiness to get the Orlesians out of Ferelden.

-Distrusts the Wardens, especially after the events of The Calling. Understandable.

-Hates Orlais, and with good reason, I might add.

-Wants to keep his daughter on the throne.

-Practical. Logical. Almost masochistic in his sense of honor and duty. Not someone you can impress with fairy tales.

 

Okay, those out of the way, I'll start listing positives/negatives as I see fit:

 

Ostagar

-Cailan was a fool. The whole 'glorious' battle with him and the Grey Wardens holding off the 'tide of evil' was incredibly stupid, and a huge waste of life/resources. Loghain was wise to pull out when he did.

-Duncan told Loghain no Grey Warden secrets. Nothing. Not how to slay an Archdemon. Not why the Grey Wardens are needed. Nothing. As Commander, it was his responsibility to inform the general all essential battle information.

-There are only 2 dozen Grey Wardens. That's just pitiful. Transfers could have been pulled from anywhere BUT Orlais. If Duncan had come clean with Grey Warden secrets and shown respect to Loghains justified suspicion of Orlais, Ostagar could have been a whole different story.

-I don't buy the whole 'Betray his king for power' argument. Not after reading Stolen Throne. But this is something we will get back to.

 

Back in Denerim

-He declares the Grey Wardens traitors, and assumes the Regency. Depending on the Origin, this can be somewhat understandable, to rather unwise. He had nothing to fear from a Cousland Warden, for instance. I don't care what lies Rendon whispered in his ear.

-Rendon Howe takes control of Highever and Denerim without a challenge. Extremely unwise, even discounting the Cousland Origin. Loghain could have made quite a few more allies if he gave Denerim/Highever to someone else. The nobles would almost certainly be outraged at Howe's presumption, let alone the crimes he committed. Bryce had friends, as I'm sure Urien did.

 

Mage Tower

-No fault. All Uldred, and the Templars fault really.

 

Alienage

-No getting around it. That's all on him.

 

Landsmeet

-I'm rather surprised that Anora has a claim to the throne at all, or that anyone accepts her as Queen again. Marriage means you are closer to the royal family, not part of it. Whatever the case, Loghain undercuts her at every turn, locking her away, or assuming the Regency. That is not a good precedent.

-He's alienated a lot of people at this point. I don't agree with Eamon's plan at all, but he's still a dangerous adversary that needs to be taken care of. So it all depends on the Origin:

 

Cousland: Loghain might have been a hero, but he's declared the Cousland family traitors, and rewarded Howe for his murder. Loghains' constant interference/defense of Howe, Anoras' stupid plots/betrayals and Howes' lunacy push Cousland over the edge. She's done with the lot of them.

Dwarven Noble/Commoner: Much less personal baggage here. I could see these Origins sparing Loghain, especially a commoner, who is likely not a skilled general, or a Noble, who sees the value of a powerful commander.

Dalish/City Elf: City Elf? Not a chance they will let Loghain walk. The Dalish care little for human politics, though probably just as little for the fate of flat ears. I suspect they will leave it up to Alistair to decide, if they are on good terms.

Mage: Mages have even better education than nobles, but don't get out often. Loghain is very pro mage, and that could be a factor in sparing his life. I don't think a mage would see the Broken Circle incident as his fault at all. It's all on Uldred and the Templars, really. It was a flawed system to begin with.

[-TC1989-]

It's fair to say Alistair's reaction, and his choice to do abandon the saving of the world, is infuriating and wrong.

 

 

Perspective however, is also important. Alistair always acknowledges that he isn't always the sharpest tool in the shed...Not because he's actually stupid but because he feels more than he thinks. He feels the Grey Wardens are his salvation from the subjugation and futility of the chantry (and a dogma he doesn't believe in), he feels that that Duncan was like a father and the Grey Wardens like his family, and Loghain murdered them. His problem with Loghain being made a Grey Warden is that he sees it as a reward, the ultimate honor, and Loghain becoming one corrupts it for him.

 

 

You imply that while Loghain's actions at Ostagar are "morally wrong," they are strategically right.

 

They aren't. He nearly doomed Ferelden, maybe the world, because he was suspicious of a group that was composed of foreigners. His actions were not dictated by his former strategic prowess, but by his increasing demented paranoia.

 

You're also only considering one possible interpretation of Cailan's character. It's heavily implied in game that his outward persona might be more because of how most Fereldens want their King to be, rather than that being all that there is to him. Every action Cailan took such as insisting that Alistair(a possible canidate for the throne if Cailan fell) must be one of the Wardens to carry out the safest task at Ostagar, a willingness to divorce Anora and marry Celene for the sake of Ferelden despite the fact that he really has been enamored with Anora his whole life, and taking issue with Loghain's uncompromising, traditional, and uninventive (read: with diminishing returns against an ever growing force) strategy could be interpreted as a very savvy man putting on a show for his people.

 

 

So what would you suggest then? Would you say Loghain needs to stay silent, and charge the darkspawn head on? There was no other choice, you saw like I did that he was clearly worn out trying to talk to him. Every time we saw Duncan, or Loghain try and talk to him, they would either literally sigh, or just try to talk him down. Obviously we saw that Cailan had no clue what he was doing, and the fact he dismissed pretty much every word anyone said.... that is frustrating. Should he die for it? Of course not, with age comes wisdom, but do you think he was going to step down? The only difference between Duncan, and Loghain, was that Duncan had higher morals, and tried to protect him, like he would a child.

 

 

What we heard:

"Loghain waits to bore me with his strategy."

Warning flag! Warning flag! WARNING FLAG!

What might have actually been meant:

"Loghain waits to bore me with his (increasing uneffective) strategy."

Oh....

I'm not saying it's certain. Cailan might be just as childish as juvenile as he appears.

 

 

Well it's pretty hard to come up with a clear indication of how Cailan acted in general, but the screen time he did have... answered it fairly clearly IMO. He was a young man, who walked around with a arrogant air knowing he was king. And he liked telling people so. Maybe in every other moment in his life, he was a great guy. But considering his only face time was in Ostagar... eh wasn't getting that. He seemed pretty damn hard to reason with.

 

Loghain however, is definitely not competent any longer.

 

 

I disagree, but that's chalked more to opinion.

 

As to Alistair's choice to leave...I find it frustrating too, but it's important to remember that he doesn't know what we know. He doesn't know that the Blight can only be ended by a Grey Warden's hand, so he doesn't actually believe himself to be a deciding force in this.

 

 

But he still chose to leave us to die. Did you know in your first playthrough? None of us knew the truth, but we still faced it head on. Crying about not getting your way, and then leaving your comrades, and home behind.... there's no excuse. He might be pissed about whats happened, but he never gave it a chance. Maybe Loghain would be a horrible Warden, maybe he would die in the process of becoming one. But the fact you write off an entire country over a questionable call? You can say its frustrating, but I say much worse than that.

 

 

I don't think that makes it right, but I'm absolutely certain it's one of the many things worth "trying to separate" him from Loghain. To suggest their choices are the same is...Hmm, problematic.

 

 

If I suggested that they are the same person... er I'm sorry? But I clearly know they are different people. What I said was, whatever Loghain did, it didn't measure up to the fact that Alistair willingly left Ferelden to die (and yes, I will keep saying it). And when I say die, I don't mean crippled... I'm talking about being left uninhabitable. Loghain never did that, and we know he would gladly die to protect Ferelden. He poisoned an Arl, which is sickening... and he left Ostagar, I won't argue these things. Mentally, he is not capable of running a country, not at all. His heart, and soul is bred for war. That is where I leave him. And like I said earlier, I hold no love for Loghain, but I saw a good resource to use for the war, and Alistair whining about taking the throne, so he could kill him....? You're still implying that Alistair is still more fit to handle this?

[gottaloveme]

I stubbed my toe the other day and got a splinter in it. Damn you Loghain!

[Exile Isan]

With other origins however it could be possible that the conflict with Loghain is more political than personal. 

 

Not necessarily. My CE warden had to rescue her father from Tevinter slavers that Loghain let operate in the city for coin to fund his war. No way she was not going to separate his head from his body for that one. An argument could also be made for the mage Warden in that s/he blames Loghain, at least in part, for what happened at the Circle.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

-I'm rather surprised that Anora has a claim to the throne at all, or that anyone accepts her as Queen again.

Chalk this one up to a combination of Ferelden wanting to view itself as a meritocracy, Anora apparently being a good administrator and respected abroad (though some have argued, and not entirely without reason, that she does not live up to her hype in-game) and there being no better option within easy reach. If Howe had not killed Teryn Cousland, or if the de facto Teryn Cousland had been within easy reach, either might have challenged her. And because they'd be descended from the Theirins as a measure to ensure the Cousland family's loyalty, they'd have a blood claim that didn't descend from bastardy. (The bastardy thing is apparently the only reason Alistair's blood didn't blow Anora's claim out of the water.)

 

 

An argument could also be made for the mage Warden in that s/he blames Loghain, at least in part, for what happened at the Circle.

Not a logical argument, I don't think, since the exact details don't come off as something Loghain could be blamed for. Now, if your Warden isn't thinking this through rationally, which you can definitely argue he/she wouldn't be, then I can see it; it ultimately depends on whether or not you view your Warden as capable of divorcing himself from emotion to that degree. (I'll note, however, that given how dangerous emotions seem to be to a mage, if anyone can do it it would be a mage.)

[Lady Artifice]

@ -TC1989-

 

I'm implying that Loghain's behavior is increasingly self-destructive throughout the events of the game, and directly causes a lot more actual loss of life and freedom and safety of the people than Alistair's (also self-destructive) behavior does.

 

...However, I see your point. Alistair's actions COULD have had cataclysmic consequences. Reasons matter, and Loghain's reasons within his own more were pragmatic and for the good of the country he loved. Alistair's reasons were personal.

 

In the end, you're right. A lot of this comes down to opinion. I think a lot of the things Loghain does were motivated by a increasingly mad paranoia rather than actual tactical prowess, and weren't even that effective at the end of the day. I think he has too many issues with empathy to be diplomatically competent, and too dogmatic and narrow minded to be currently effective at leading troops. Even in the Stolen Throne, he was good at planning attacks, but it was Maric who could motivate troops and make them believe in the cause. Loghain has little personal magnetism and no willingness to entertain other modes of thought than his own.

 

As for Cailan, he did give in to Loghain's overall plans for the battle despite the fact that he suggested waiting for the Orlesian forces, and the only time he reminded someone that he is KING was when Loghain became insulting and direspectful in front of people he needs to inspire. I really believe that Cailan is wiser than the face he presents, and his decision to be in the battle was made for the exact same reasons Maric would have done it: because his people needed him to be there. This is backed up by clues in game (Wynne discussing him with the Warden and the letters in RTO), but again, I acknowledge that it's still just character interpretation and a matter of opinion.

 

I can understand why you would interpret him differently, and I'm certainly not dismissing the condemnation of Alistair's choice. I find it selfish to the point of deplorable, and if I didn't have so much affection for him in every other way, I would never give him his way.

[-TC1989-]

I'm implying that Loghain's behavior is increasingly self-destructive throughout the events of the game, and directly causes a lot more actual loss of life and freedom and safety of the people than Alistair's (also self-destructive) behavior does.

 

Either way lives were going to be lost, yes. But who did you feel more comfortable going with? Again, all down to opinion. But seriously, the man... hell future king that acts this way? Never going to happen in my case. Ultimately it comes down to what you sympathize more with. Walking into the Landsmeet, I had Alistair's back 100%. But when I saw how it came down.... man I took a 180. If this is the Alistair that's going to lead us? No.thanks.

 

 

...However, I see your point. Alistair's actions COULD have had cataclysmic consequences. Reasons matter, and Loghain's reasons within his own more were pragmatic and for the good of the country he loved. Alistair's reasons were personal.

In the end, you're right. A lot of this comes down to opinion. I think a lot of the things Loghain does were motivated by a increasingly mad paranoia rather than actual tactical prowess, and weren't even that effective at the end of the day. I think he has too many issues with empathy to be diplomatically competent, and too dogmatic and narrow minded to be currently effective at leading troops. Even in the Stolen Throne, he was good at planning attacks, but it was Maric who could motivate troops and make them believe in the cause. Loghain has little personal magnetism and no willingness to entertain other modes of thought than his own.

 

 

Up until the Landsmeet, yes Loghain thought about it more for himself. Maybe even afterwards he did. But when the conversations boiled down, and I listened to how they were going about it going forward, I was amazed how ridiculous Alistair had become. When I saw Loghain own up to his choices, and accept his fate... I had a slight change of heart. Not enough to forgive the man or anything, but I respected him for that. And then when you add the ultimatum given by Alistair, everything kind of shifted for me.

 

 

 

As for Cailan, he did give in to Loghain's overall plans for the battle despite the fact that he suggested waiting for the Orlesian forces, and the only time he reminded someone that he is KING was when Loghain became insulting and direspectful in front of people he needs to inspire. I really believe that Cailan is wiser than the face he presents, and his decision to be in the battle was made for the exact same reasons Maric would have done it: because his people needed him to be there. This is backed up by clues in game (Wynne discussing him with the Warden and the letters in RTO), but again, I acknowledge that it's still just character interpretation and a matter of opinion.

 

 

He gave in, he finally did relent. But how often do you think a talk with him goes like that? I'm going with the assumption that this is pretty common. But I'm not giving a standing ovation because he actually listened to the man who's been fighting for three of his life times. You would have to be pretty damn ignorant to ignore the advice given to you by all these great fighters (Duncan, Loghain, Etc.).

 

And no, he didn't literally tell people "I'm the king" left and right, but you could feel that air when he walked around. You know he had that kind of arrogance. He made that grand entrance when you arrived, and I felt it was for show mainly. That was just the tip of the iceberg.

 

 

 

I can understand why you would interpret him differently, and I'm certainly not dismissing the condemnation of Alistair's choice. I find it selfish to the point of deplorable, and if I didn't have so much affection for him in every other way, I would never give him his way.

 

 

But in the end, you gave into him? Normally in games I can get on board with the more personal route. But with the given situation, and how Alistair said the things he did.... I just felt like I was talking to the real Alistair. And that was actually pretty damn telling, if not disturbing to witness.

[gottaloveme]

 And because they'd be descended from the Theirins as a measure to ensure the Cousland family's loyalty, they'd have a blood claim that didn't descend from bastardy. (The bastardy thing is apparently the only reason Alistair's blood didn't blow Anora's claim out of the water.)

 

 

 

 

 

The Couslands and Theirins are related? How so? I must have been playing blind to miss that one.

[Ryriena]

The Couslands and Theirins are related? How so? I must have been playing blind to miss that one.

By marriage actually, according to the codex on them.

[Lavaeolus]

You're also only considering one possible interpretation of Cailan's character. It's heavily implied in game that his outward persona might be more because of how most Fereldens want their King to be, rather than that being all that there is to him. Every action Cailan took such as insisting that Alistair(a possible canidate for the throne if Cailan fell) must be one of the Wardens to carry out the safest task at Ostagar, a willingness to divorce Anora and marry Celene for the sake of Ferelden despite the fact that he really has been enamored with Anora his whole life, and taking issue with Loghain's uncompromising, traditional, and uninventive (read: with diminishing returns against an ever growing force) strategy could be interpreted as a very savvy man putting on a show for his people.
 
What we heard:
 
"Loghain waits to bore me with his strategy."
 
Warning flag! Warning flag! WARNING FLAG!
 
What might have actually been meant:
 
"Loghain waits to bore me with his (increasing uneffective) strategy."
 
Oh....
 
 
 
I'm not saying it's certain. Cailan might be just as childish as juvenile as he appears.

I've always thought Cailan's supposed "playing stupid" was added along later. Let's actually look at his actions, under the whole wiser-than-he-appeared idea:

 

1) Protecting Alistair: Now, I don't know how strained Anora and Cailan's marriage is, guaranteeing an alternate claim to the throne than her to potentially ignite civil war is a very bad idea. Unless he knew what Loghain would pull, which brings up more problems...

 

2) Marrying Celene: I can doubt the effectiveness of this pairing, but it's certainly a pragmatic thing to do. But this was added in the Return to Ostagar DLC, and while it was originally planned in the game, Return works a lot at building this possible alternate characterization ("Oh for all his bravado King Cailan knew Ostagar would be lost" -- That Dying Guy).

 

3) Frontlines: Fair enough if he doubted Loghain's strategy, but his only main amendment was "I shall fight on the frontline". Let's say Cailan was smart enough to know the battle wasn't sure, okay yell "We can do this!" but deliberately choosing, as king, to fight on the frontlines of a battle for no reasonable gain... Unless Cailan was secretly suicidal ("My wife keeps going on about her father in bed"), he's either a glory hound or had a reasonable idea what his death would cause and then did it anyway.

[Lady Artifice]

Either way lives were going to be lost, yes. But who did you feel more comfortable going with? Again, all down to opinion. But seriously, the man... hell future king that acts this way? Never going to happen in my case. Ultimately it comes down to what you sympathize more with. Walking into the Landsmeet, I had Alistair's back 100%. But when I saw how it came down.... man I took a 180. If this is the Alistair that's going to lead us? No.thanks.

 

 

 

 

Up until the Landsmeet, yes Loghain thought about it more for himself. Maybe even afterwards he did. But when the conversations boiled down, and I listened to how they were going about it going forward, I was amazed how ridiculous Alistair had become. When I saw Loghain own up to his choices, and accept his fate... I had a slight change of heart. Not enough to forgive the man or anything, but I respected him for that. And then when you add the ultimatum given by Alistair, everything kind of shifted for me.

 

 

 

 

 

He gave in, he finally did relent. But how often do you think a talk with him goes like that? I'm going with the assumption that this is pretty common. But I'm not giving a standing ovation because he actually listened to the man who's been fighting for three of his life times. You would have to be pretty damn ignorant to ignore the advice given to you by all these great fighters (Duncan, Loghain, Etc.).

 

And no, he didn't literally tell people "I'm the king" left and right, but you could feel that air when he walked around. You know he had that kind of arrogance. He made that grand entrance when you arrived, and I felt it was for show mainly. That was just the tip of the iceberg.

 

 

 

 

 

But in the end, you gave into him? Normally in games I can get on board with the more personal route. But with the given situation, and how Alistair said the things he did.... I just felt like I was talking to the real Alistair. And that was actually pretty damn telling, if not disturbing to witness.

 

 

 

 

I do understand that reaction, but we shouldn't assume Alistair at his worst will inform every part of his behavior and choices forever.

 

If you want to get down to the whole "pragmatic best result for the future of Ferelden"? Hardened Alistair married to Anora with Loghain still alive. I don't just think Alistair can make a competent King in this situation, it's confirmed in canon. In this case, Anora and Alistair balance each other and Alistair asks Anora for advice a lot. 

 

I'm not assuming your Cousland would, but most Couslands (if asked to Spare Howe for the good of all) would be like, "What? Nuh-uh." There is a comparison to be made there. Loghain destroyed Alistair's life for the sake of his own selfish motivations much the same as Howe destroyed Cousland's. His feelings about it in this instance may be the real Alistair, and I'm not excusing his attitude at that moment...but no, that is not all there is to him. That is an aspect of what there is to him. He is capable of being more.

 

 

About this whole "Duncan and Loghain agreeing" business: It's just not true. They both felt that Cailan shouldn't be on the battlefield, but in every other way they were on opposite sides. Duncan wanted to wait for Orlesian forces, firstly. Loghain was antagonistic about the very notion of Orlesian forces helping. Cailan wasn't ignoring everyone's advice about strategy, he was bobbing around in between numerous different arguments. For that battle, it was Loghain's strategy he went with. 

 

I totally see what you see (arrogance and foolhardiness) in Cailan...I just think it was the show he put on more than all that he is. That point is pretty moot, since we'll likely never know for sure.

 

 

Well, I have several character saves. 

They all react to this differently. Once Alistair gets what he wants and stays a Grey Warden and the world works always just how he'd like it to. Twice he comes a hardened King and has to stuff it. Twice he becomes an unhardened King and...you guessed it, gets what he wants (in a really loose, situation use of the word). Twice he is exiled. One could make a reasonable claim that it's a fumble on our character's part not to anticipate Alistair's reaction to that idea at the Landsmeet and plan accordingly. He offers approval points at being reassured that Loghain will get what's coming to him. There's even a direct comparison drawn in early dialogue between Cousland and Alistair in regards to losing everything. If we're paying attention to him, and all his childish emotionality, we shouldn't be too surprised. Some of my characters actually planned for the possibility as soon as they discussed Loghain's fate with Anora just before the landsmeet.

[Riven326]

Ah. So Loghain is fully responsible for every single thing that happens? No one else bares any blame whatsoever?

Yes.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

2) Marrying Celene: I can doubt the effectiveness of this pairing, but it's certainly a pragmatic thing to do.

He's divorcing Anora, which might cause a Civil War due if Loghain gets angry. He's going to marry Celene, which will cause a Civil War due to Loghain not standing for it and just about nobody above the age of forty being willing to accept an Orlesian monarch. How's that pragmatic?

[WarriorOfLight999]

I'm no friend of Loghain, but I must disagree with the notion that everything is Loghains' fault. Some of it was engineered by forces simply beyond his control. I have sound reasons for killing him. Ostagar is not one of them.

[Lavaeolus]

He's divorcing Anora, which might cause a Civil War due if Loghain gets angry. He's going to marry Celene, which will cause a Civil War due to Loghain not standing for it and just about nobody above the age of forty being willing to accept an Orlesian monarch. How's that pragmatic?

I didn't say it's actually that smart a thing to do. But you don't have to be that smart to be "pragmatic", if you catch my meaning. He's divorcing his beloved in order to forge an Empire.
 
That it might not actually work and is probably an awful idea is besides the point.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I didn't say it's actually that smart a thing to do. But you don't have to be that smart to be "pragmatic", if you catch my meaning. He's divorcing his beloved in order to forge an Empire.
 
That it might not actually work and is probably an awful idea is besides the point.

The definition for pragmatic I found was "dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations." So, yes, you do have to be smart to be pragmatic.

[Lavaeolus]

I was going with something like "The pursuit of practicality over aesthetic qualities; a concentration on facts rather than emotions or ideals."
 
And, sure, it's focused on facts and practicality. It's just jumped to wrong conclusion, because Cailan, man, think these things through.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I was going with something like "The pursuit of practicality over aesthetic qualities; a concentration on facts rather than emotions or ideals."
 
And, sure, it's focused on facts and practicality. It's just jumped to wrong conclusion, because Cailan, man, think these things through.

Cailan was thinking based on ideals and emotions, too. Only he was thinking based on how awesome it would be if Ferelden and Orlais got along rather than the emotions he felt towards his wife.

[Lavaeolus]

The idea of a union between Ferelden and Orlais, if you believe it can be pulled off, has benefits beyond awesomeness. It expands the territory and economy of both nations, puts an end to petty fighting (well, Cailan might believe it will, despite the likely actual effects), their military forces will both combine and strengthen... It's only when you think some more than all the holes start appearing ("You know they're just going to use us as extra troops, right?").

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The idea of a union between Ferelden and Orlais, if you believe it can be pulled off, has benefits beyond awesomeness. It expands the territory and economy of both nations, puts an end to petty fighting (well, Cailan might believe it will, despite the likely actual effects), their military forces will both combine and strengthen... It's only when you think some more than all the holes start appearing ("You know they're just going to use us as extra troops, right?").

I believe that either of our definitions require you to actually think about it rather than making a call based on the awesome benefits.

[Lavaeolus]

It would be a mistake, however, to assume that means "think with a pretty canny mind" even if we assume the thinking has to be long and hard.

Plus, we're unsure if Cailan did anything more than consider the proposal carefully, though it seems suspect.

[Riven326]

I'm no friend of Loghain, but I must disagree with the notion that everything is Loghains' fault. Some of it was engineered by forces simply beyond his control. I have sound reasons for killing him. Ostagar is not one of them.

Well, we can't blame him for the blight. But everything else was his fault for the most part.