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[WarriorOfLight999]

You'll have to be more specific.

 

If you fault Loghain for 'abandoning Cailan and leaving his men and the Wardens to die',  that's something we can discuss.

[Riven326]

You'll have to be more specific.

 

If you fault Loghain for 'abandoning Cailan and leaving his men and the Wardens to die',  that's something we can discuss.

That and selling elves as slaves, allowing Arl Howe to imprison and torture people, starting a civil war while the darkspawn spread across Ferelden. He also hires Zevran to kill the remaining Grey Wardens.

[Lady Artifice]

I've always thought Cailan's supposed "playing stupid" was added along later. Let's actually look at his actions, under the whole wiser-than-he-appeared idea:

 

1) Protecting Alistair: Now, I don't know how strained Anora and Cailan's marriage is, guaranteeing an alternate claim to the throne than her to potentially ignite civil war is a very bad idea. Unless he knew what Loghain would pull, which brings up more problems...

 

2) Marrying Celene: I can doubt the effectiveness of this pairing, but it's certainly a pragmatic thing to do. But this was added in the Return to Ostagar DLC, and while it was originally planned in the game, Return works a lot at building this possible alternate characterization ("Oh for all his bravado King Cailan knew Ostagar would be lost" -- That Dying Guy).

 

3) Frontlines: Fair enough if he doubted Loghain's strategy, but his only main amendment was "I shall fight on the frontline". Let's say Cailan was smart enough to know the battle wasn't sure, okay yell "We can do this!" but deliberately choosing, as king, to fight on the frontlines of a battle for no reasonable gain... Unless Cailan was secretly suicidal ("My wife keeps going on about her father in bed"), he's either a glory hound or had a reasonable idea what his death would cause and then did it anyway.

 

That's fair. 

[Lady Artifice]

I believe that either of our definitions require you to actually think about it rather than making a call based on the awesome benefits.

 

If you were to indulge the possibility that Cailan's outer persona was an act, then he might have been pretty terrified of the possibility of a Blight. At the very least, we know Cailan is well read when it comes to the history of war in Thedas. He knows about all the details of the last Blight. How grueling, miserable, and cataclysmic it was.

 

 

It could be as simple as this:

 

I will do whatever it takes to get as many troops here fighting Darkspawn as I possibly can, and then hope to deal with long term repercussions later.

 

Reckless? Pragmatic? Both?

[WarriorOfLight999]

Alright, now we can talk. Let's break it down

 

1)Ostagar

As I mentioned before, Cailan was a fool, and let a good deal of his men die so he could grab glory. Unfortunately for Loghain, he is also King. So Loghain tries to make the stupid strategy work as best he can, knowing that casualties are going to be enormous. Uldred attempts to simplify the signal process by suggesting the use of magic, but that interfering Cleric at the war table cut him off. Then, there's the fact that the Tower of Ishal is compromised. Not technically anyones fault save for the darkspawn themselves, but if Duncan had been more forthcoming with Warden knowledge.....

 

There are only 2 dozen Wardens at the time of the battle. The Grey Wardens have existed in Ferelden for 2 decades now. That's it? No one else? If I were Duncan, I would have recruited a lot more, especially considering the fact that Wardens know the location of all the Archdemons, and there were warning signs in advance.

 

The battle goes ill. Loghain is a paranoid man, but with justifications. He believes the Wardens responsible, but is too late to save Cailan. Better to save what men he has left, regroup at Denerim, and prepare for the storm.

 

2) Slavery

Yes. He is completely wrong here. Had he made alliances with other countries like Nevarra, this could have been avoided.

 

3) Rendon Howe

Again, correct.

 

4) The Civil War

This is where I disagree. I say that the nobles involved on both sides have been blind, cowardly and stupid. Not a single vassal, knight or friend objects to the death of Teryn Cousland. Its only if a Cousland Warden shows up that any amount of sympathy is garnered. The nobles were only interested in their own selfish ambitions for the throne, and that includes Eamon, who only makes things worse. Loghain is not a good politician, but he knew this was going to happen, so he tried to stop it by declaring himself Regent. Not the best move, but I cannot fault Loghain for the Civil War.

 

5)Zevran

Well, he does consider the Warden an enemy. What was he supposed to do, send a strongly worded letter?

[Lady Artifice]

Alright, now we can talk. Let's break it down

 

1)Ostagar

As I mentioned before, Cailan was a fool, and let a good deal of his men die so he could grab glory. Unfortunately for Loghain, he is also King. So Loghain tries to make the stupid strategy work as best he can, knowing that casualties are going to be enormous. Uldred attempts to simplify the signal process by suggesting the use of magic, but that interfering Cleric at the war table cut him off. Then, there's the fact that the Tower of Ishal is compromised. Not technically anyones fault save for the darkspawn themselves, but if Duncan had been more forthcoming with Warden knowledge.....

 

 

2) Slavery

Yes. He is completely wrong here. Had he made alliances with other countries like Nevarra, this could have been avoided.

 

 

 

1. Loghain still would been skeptical. He continues to be doubtful even after he's a Grey Warden, and Duncan wasn't exactly free to tell anyone anything he wanted. He already had the most powerful person in the country working with him. Why would he need to do something as drastic as giving away vital Warden secrets when he's been forbidden from doing so?

 

2. Right? Like he ever would have though. Loghain would trust other countries when...Well, when he's condemned to take the joining and actually sent to them...

[-TC1989-]

I do understand that reaction, but we shouldn't assume Alistair at his worst will inform every part of his behavior and choices forever.

 

If you want to get down to the whole "pragmatic best result for the future of Ferelden"? Hardened Alistair married to Anora with Loghain still alive. I don't just think Alistair can make a competent King in this situation, it's confirmed in canon. In this case, Anora and Alistair balance each other and Alistair asks Anora for advice a lot. 

 

No, but we shouldn't dismiss it either. I keep thinking that while you admit he does it, I feel like you're also implying "Welp, thaaaat's Alistair". People that have the tendency, or the ability to melt into that way of thinking.... is very risky. You have people that show that kind of behavior before handing them the crown? You take a major risk in having that attitude be your king. Speculation, yes... but it does give serious pause. Really, I don't think Loghain, nor Alistair should be running a country. But yeah I will give you "hardened Alistair", even though I feel weird putting it like that. I feel when we talk like that, it makes it feel too gamey. But I will say "hardened Alistair" was the best Alistair by far.

 

I'm not assuming your Cousland would, but most Couslands (if asked to Spare Howe for the good of all) would be like, "What? Nuh-uh." There is a comparison to be made there. Loghain destroyed Alistair's life for the sake of his own selfish motivations much the same as Howe destroyed Cousland's. His feelings about it in this instance may be the real Alistair, and I'm not excusing his attitude at that moment...but no, that is not all there is to him. That is an aspect of what there is to him. He is capable of being more.

 

As a Cousland, I hated Howe (duh)... but given that we were fighting in a cellar, it was too on the nose. But, had I fought Howe in the Landsmeet, and people gave an actual argument why he should be spared, I would listen. Problem is, Howe influenced just about everything wrong that happened in the game. Did Loghain go with it? Yep, he did. But Loghain holds, and commands much more respect, and I felt like he offered much, much more than Howe did. If I'm not wrong, the entire country hated Howe pretty much anyway. So I think arguing for Howe would be pretty.... unlikely.

 

Problem with the Loghain/Alistair thing is... no one is asking him to forgive, or even like the guy. Loghain is not a "good" person, but he brings a lot to the table. Whether you think he's competent, or not.... you would just kill him? At worst, he could be a great soldier to throw in the front lines. Bringing him into the Wardens wasn't an honor given to him (which Alistair refused to understand), and Riordan knew what he was doing. Alistair needed to shut up, and really listen to Riordan. He hardly gave him a chance to speak his peace. To me Riordan became Duncan 2, and I felt like if he had a reason for doing what he did, he knew exactly what, and why he was doing it.

 

About this whole "Duncan and Loghain agreeing" business: It's just not true. They both felt that Cailan shouldn't be on the battlefield, but in every other way they were on opposite sides. Duncan wanted to wait for Orlesian forces, firstly. Loghain was antagonistic about the very notion of Orlesian forces helping. Cailan wasn't ignoring everyone's advice about strategy, he was bobbing around in between numerous different arguments. For that battle, it was Loghain's strategy he went with.
I totally see what you see (arrogance and foolhardiness) in Cailan...I just think it was the show he put on more than all that he is. That point is pretty moot, since we'll likely never know for sure.

 

When I said Duncan agreeing with Loghain, I meant that they had the same views of Cailan. They both knew he was a kid trying to play hero. They both knew that his obnoxious behavior was going to throw lives away for basically no reason. They both knew that he was arrogant, and hard headed about being criticized. Cailan wore that title of king like a necklace, and made sure everyone knew it. And just like Alistair, it's when you get down to it that you see how they really are. Alistair became a whining child not getting his way, and willingly let Ferelden suffer for it. Cailan willingly threw lives away to make his name sooner than he was willing to wait. They have quite a few things in common, and some of them are quite horrifying.

 

Well, I have several character saves. 
They all react to this differently. Once Alistair gets what he wants and stays a Grey Warden and the world works always just how he'd like it to. Twice he comes a hardened King and has to stuff it. Twice he becomes an unhardened King and...you guessed it, gets what he wants (in a really loose, situation use of the word). Twice he is exiled. One could make a reasonable claim that it's a fumble on our character's part not to anticipate Alistair's reaction to that idea at the Landsmeet and plan accordingly. He offers approval points at being reassured that Loghain will get what's coming to him. There's even a direct comparison drawn in early dialogue between Cousland and Alistair in regards to losing everything. If we're paying attention to him, and all his childish emotionality, we shouldn't be too surprised. Some of my characters actually planned for the possibility as soon as they discussed Loghain's fate with Anora just before the landsmeet.

 

Oh, I had numerous save files too. And for the hell of it, I purposely changed some things to see what would happen if I did some things differently. But considering I'm talking about how I felt, and what I took away from the game, I stick to my story. But as a gamer, I totally understand where you are coming from. I'm a curious guy too 

[WarriorOfLight999]

What exactly are the Wardens from the Anderfels going to do? Arrest him? They haven't exactly acted strong during the entire Blight. They send a single man, Riordan, to Rendon Howe, whose history with the Wardens does not endear him to the order.

 

Some secrets are good to keep. But the secrecy of the Grey Wardens comes off to me as some snobbish 'stay out of our special club' nonsense. I think it would have been worth the chance for Duncan to give Loghain that information.

 

As for Cailan, I've little respect for him, King or not.

[dragonflight288]

If you were to indulge the possibility that Cailan's outer persona was an act, then he might have been pretty terrified of the possibility of a Blight. At the very least, we know Cailan is well read when it comes to the history of war in Thedas. He knows about all the details of the last Blight. How grueling, miserable, and cataclysmic it was.

 

 

It could be as simple as this:

 

I will do whatever it takes to get as many troops here fighting Darkspawn as I possibly can, and then hope to deal with long term repercussions later.

 

Reckless? Pragmatic? Both?

 

I have one response to this, and it is in-game dialogue.

 

Duncan: Your uncles sends his greetings and reminds you that Redcliff forces can be here in less than a week.

Cailan: Hah! Eamon just wants in on the glory!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I have one response to this, and it is in-game dialogue.

 

Duncan: Your uncles sends his greetings and reminds you that Redcliff forces can be here in less than a week.

Cailan: Hah! Eamon just wants in on the glory!

I think he'd say that either way.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

What exactly are the Wardens from the Anderfels going to do? Arrest him? They haven't exactly acted strong during the entire Blight. They send a single man, Riordan, to Rendon Howe, whose history with the Wardens does not endear him to the order.

 

Some secrets are good to keep. But the secrecy of the Grey Wardens comes off to me as some snobbish 'stay out of our special club' nonsense. I think it would have been worth the chance for Duncan to give Loghain that information.

 

As for Cailan, I've little respect for him, King or not.

The secrets of the Grey Wardens aren't kept due to snobbery. They are kept due to the very real possibility that large sections of the Chantry and general public would turn against them. I do not believe that the highest ranking members of the Chantry are among them, as I'd just give up on the logical assessment of this series of which I am so fond if the highest ranking members of the Chantry hadn't already found out. But the rank-and-file? Some of them would attack the Wardens if they knew. Rylock threatened and ultimately attacked the Wardens for the crime of expecting her to follow the laws she enforced. If she found out they had twisted their bodies with something that could very well be construed as blood magic she wouldn't have even tried to talk.

 

At least, that's the way it usually is. As far as Loghain and Cailan, I can't imagine why they were kept ignorant. It's possible the dumber elements of the Chantry were refusing him the private time needed to explain it (this would be entirely consistent with how the strategy council plays out) or that Duncan really was a snob.

[Lady Artifice]

I have one response to this, and it is in-game dialogue.

 

Duncan: Your uncles sends his greetings and reminds you that Redcliff forces can be here in less than a week.

Cailan: Hah! Eamon just wants in on the glory!

 

 

Fair.

 

I still there's a possibility all that bluster is put on, though, because while he wants more troops he doesn't think this particular battle can wait for them.

 

Again, I acknowledge that I might be wrong, and a part of it is that I like the idea of it being obstufi---obstufca--obfuscating stupidity as a story element. I'm biased towards that theory because I like it.

 

 

By the way...Did your city elf enjoy telling him they killed an Arl's son for raping their friend and watching him lose all that bluster? My city elf enjoyed it.

[dragonflight288]

I think he'd say that either way.

 

Probably, but on my first playthrought, that one line took me back a bit and made me think, "Huh?" Then the "Bore me with his strategies," the news that he and Loghain have been arguing for days, and Cailan's insistence on fighting on the front lines, I was almost literally face-palming at how he was treating war with childlike enthusiasm, and I thought him a fool.

[dragonflight288]

The secrets of the Grey Wardens aren't kept due to snobbery. They are kept due to the very real possibility that large sections of the Chantry would turn against them. I do not believe that the highest ranking members of the Chantry are among them, as I'd just give up on the logical assessment of this series of which I am so fond if the highest ranking members of the Chantry hadn't already found out. But the rank-and-file? Some of them would attack the Wardens if they knew. Rylock threatened and ultimately attacked the Wardens for the crime of expecting her to follow the laws she enforced. If she found out they had twisted their bodies with something that could very well be construed as blood magic she wouldn't have even tried to talk.

 

Yup. 

 

Also, she outright said that as a templar she had authority over secular matters, meaning King Alistair's or Queen Anora's word allowing the Warden to conscript Anders, so she says that as a templar she has more authority than the royalty of the country she serves in. 

[dragonflight288]

Fair.

 

I still there's a possibility all that bluster is put on, though, because while he wants more troops he doesn't think this particular battle can wait for them.

 

Again, I acknowledge that I might be wrong, and a part of it is that I like the idea of it being obstufi---obstufca--obfuscating stupidity as a story element. I'm biased towards that theory because I like it.

 

 

By the way...Did your city elf enjoy telling him they killed an Arl's son for raping their friend and watching him lose all that bluster? My city elf enjoyed it.

 

Oh yeah. Not even my snobby Dwarf Noble could make him lose that much bluster by saying "I'm no friend of yours human lord."

[Lavaeolus]

The secrets of the Grey Wardens aren't kept due to snobbery. They are kept due to the very real possibility that large sections of the Chantry and general public would turn against them. I do not believe that the highest ranking members of the Chantry are among them, as I'd just give up on the logical assessment of this series of which I am so fond if the highest ranking members of the Chantry hadn't already found out. But the rank-and-file? Some of them would attack the Wardens if they knew. Rylock threatened and ultimately attacked the Wardens for the crime of expecting her to follow the laws she enforced. If she found out they had twisted their bodies with something that could very well be construed as blood magic she wouldn't have even tried to talk.
 
At least, that's the way it usually is. As far as Loghain and Cailan, I can't imagine why they were kept. It's possible the dumber elements of the Chantry were refusing him the private time needed to explain it (this would be entirely consistent with how the strategy council plays out) or that Duncan really was a snob.

If you want a reason for Cailan and Loghain, specifically: the Grey Wardens can't keep making exceptions for specific people to work to their favour. If they do that with any consistency -- and if they make an exception now, why not in X -- then eventually the secret will get blown. And that's it for the Grey Wardens. And that's it for this Blight, and all future Blights. Sorry, Ferelden, Ostagar, but you're just not that important.

That's not an explanation I'm entirely happy with, but I can't think of anything better off the top of my head.

And honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the Chantry higher-ups did turn on them. They wouldn't want to, but their hand would be forced. Grey Wardens work very much on this semi-"open secret"-type deal, with willful ignorance in play. "I'm going to do something bad, and if you knew what it was you'd stop me -- but you need me". As soon as that secret or any specifics get blown ("Our mages know blood magic", whatever else) they can't be seen endorsing or even tolerating it, even if they "unofficially" knew about it beforehand.

[Aimi]

Fair.
 
I still there's a possibility all that bluster is put on, though, because while he wants more troops he doesn't think this particular battle can wait for them.

One doesn't have to believe that Cailan's bluster is real to believe that the battle could not wait for reinforcements.

It's not like the Fereldan army marches out to fight the darkspawn horde at Ostagar. Instead, it deploys pretty much immediately outside of its own encampments. The darkspawn are the ones who attack, and if the Fereldans hadn't formed a line of battle then the horde would've just kept going and attacked the camp. In order to avoid battle that night, the Fereldan army would have had to withdraw from Ostagar entirely.

It takes a lot of time for soldiers to pick up sticks and leave a camp. They have gear and baggage and a lot of noncombatants to chivvy out of there. The Korcari Wilds were not exactly easy terrain and the Imperial Highway, while an excellent road for most of its length, was still just one road.

We don't know the numbers that the Fereldans had at Ostagar, nor do we know how heavily they were encumbered. But I suspect that it was impossible for them to withdraw rapidly in the face of an enemy with which they were already skirmishing. If the Fereldans had attempted to pull out that night - or even during the day, when the Hero and Duncan first got to camp - I think that the darkspawn would simply have destroyed the Fereldan army on the line of march instead.

What ended up happening was that, in effect (which does not mean that it was planned that way), Loghain used the king's men and the Wardens as a rear guard to buy the rest of the army time to go hell bent for leather out of the Wilds. The state of Lothering, and the comments made by people there, create the impression that even with the blood sacrifice Loghain made for the army, he had to abandon baggage, equipment, and probably civilians back at the camp, and the retreat still ended up being closer to a rout than a well-organized operational withdrawal.

On this reasoning, only two things could have rescued the Fereldan army by the day of Ostagar. One was victory in the upcoming battle against the horde: apart from inflicting casualties on the darkspawn, it would have bought the army space and time until the horde's next attack. The other was what Loghain did: using part of the army as bait to allow the rest of it to straggle out of the Wilds. One might praise him for doing this: militarily, it was probably the most conservative option (if not necessarily the safest). Strategically, it postponed ultimate defeat while at the same time making it significantly more likely, but that dead horse is little more than a skeleton now. Despite that, though, it was far from a militarily indefensible decision.

It also emphasizes just how pointless the yammer about Arl Eamon and the Orlesians was. Eamon was a week away, and the Orlesians even further: the Fereldans at Ostagar had hours. Waiting for them meant withdrawal, plain and simple, and rather suggestively, nobody ever brought up the idea at any point during the Ostagar segments of the game.

If Loghain had thought up his idea of withdrawal at or before the war council, then why didn't he bring it up during the discussion on reinforcements? That way, he could have potentially sold the king on the idea of using a more expendable formation as cover for the maneuver, rather than the monarch of Ferelden, his personal troops, and the Grey Wardens. There are a couple of possibilities. Perhaps Loghain had already had that argument and failed to convince the king, and didn't want to revisit it. (Although he did revisit even more well-trod topics in the same conversation, sooo...) Perhaps he didn't actually think of withdrawing until during the battle, as a sort of spur-of-the-moment decision based on his impression of how things were going. Or perhaps he wanted to use the opportunity to eliminate Cailan and the Wardens, from suspicion that they were an Orlesian fifth column and/or from a desire to wipe out any competitors in his bid for power.

Of course, that just brings us back to the central issue with Loghain and his actions at Ostagar.

---

By comparison, the question of Cailan's "true" competence is significantly less interesting to me. There's not much evidence in favor of it, but there's certainly room for believing it if one insists on doing so. What matters more to me than his native ability are the justifications of his specific actions.

I've already suggested (if not in this thread than in others) that some of Cailan's supposedly most objectionable decisions were perfectly par for the course for a medieval monarch. Placing himself at the head of his soldiers was absolutely normal, had ample precedent, allowed him to actually influence the battle (if in a relatively small way) and was useful politically, diplomatically, and propagandistically. Fighting at Ostagar was, at least in my opinion, the least bad of several bad options for dealing with the darkspawn horde. The tactics proposed at the Ostagar war council were not bad ones. Wittingly or not, Cailan made these decisions and/or signed off on them; whether he fully appreciated their consequences is almost irrelevant.

He did also make decisions that in retrospect appear to be bad. The thing with Celene is, well, really hard to justify, but the whole web of intrigue between Loghain, Eamon, Anora, and Celene had no obvious good solution. Cailan needed some kind of heir, after all, and Eamon was just as important a supporter to keep happy as Loghain was. Improving relations between Orlais and Ferelden was a laudable goal, even if a personal union probably wasn't the way to go. (It bemuses me that Cailan's detractors believe that a personal union would have basically been equivalent to Orlesian annexation. It might've turned out that way, I suppose, if everybody on the Fereldan side ended up being a complete idiot. Which admittedly isn't too hard to believe.) Either way, things were probably going to get ugly, and there was no good third option that wouldn't just alienate everybody. Alistair's survival at close proximity to the court is similarly hard to justify; he ought to have, at the very least, been sent off to another country.

[TEWR]

The secrets of the Grey Wardens aren't kept due to snobbery. They are kept due to the very real possibility that large sections of the Chantry and general public would turn against them. I do not believe that the highest ranking members of the Chantry are among them, as I'd just give up on the logical assessment of this series of which I am so fond if the highest ranking members of the Chantry hadn't already found out. But the rank-and-file? Some of them would attack the Wardens if they knew. Rylock threatened and ultimately attacked the Wardens for the crime of expecting her to follow the laws she enforced. If she found out they had twisted their bodies with something that could very well be construed as blood magic she wouldn't have even tried to talk.

 

At least, that's the way it usually is. As far as Loghain and Cailan, I can't imagine why they were kept. It's possible the dumber elements of the Chantry were refusing him the private time needed to explain it (this would be entirely consistent with how the strategy council plays out) or that Duncan really was a snob.

 

Of course, one then has to question how Anora and Genitivi are in the know on what the Wardens' Joining entails, if it's so secret. Granted, Genitivi is noted, by many, to be an unreliable narrator because people question the integrity of his stories. To them, they sound very fanciful, regardless of the truth involved.

 

And Anora, being a politician, would probably understand the Wardens' desire for secrecy.

 

As for why Cailan and Loghain are kept in the dark, I have no idea why that happened either. A smart Duncan would've told them in privacy, or at least entertained the notion aloud to us so we could see it was something in his mind.

 

Instead, he's very.... inept. Duncan's not a bad commander, but he's also not a good commander either.

 

Especially considering his rather chatty attitude with Maric in The Calling about the Wards, which makes me question what the hell was going on with him.

[dragonflight288]

snip

 

 

Another bit of in-game dialogue. 

 

Daveth: I hear that the darkspawn came out of the wilds, see. That's why the army's here, dangling meat in front of the bear if you take my meaning.

 

From what I can gather, the army gathered at Ostagar because it's a good defensive position, and they positioned themselves close enough that they would draw the darkspawn out. 

 

If this is true, then the army could have waited to gather and build up reinforcements. If it's not, then everything you said makes a great deal of sense. 

 

So, based on what we know from in-game dialogue, Cailan is in it for the glory, is bored with strategy meetings and is relying heavily upon the Wardens. The Wardens are keeping why they know it's a blight secret, and no one outside the order understands why they are so confident about this fact. Loghain was arguing with Cailan for days, and the biggest point of contention is the arrival of the Orlesian Chevalier's and Wardens. 

 

Side note, during the Landsmeet, Loghain says that Orlais promised four legions of chevalier's. Going by Roman Legion numbers, that's roughly 12,000 troops. But Riordan tells the warden he came with 200 divisions of calvary plus 400 Wardens. A division's numbers aren't so easily quantified, as it can be anywhere from 1,000 to 5,000 soldiers, meaning we can expect somewhere between 20,000 to 200,000 soldiers. This is a very large gap, but based on these two pieces of dialogue, it looks like the Orlesians were sending far more soldiers than Loghain was told to expect. This means, based entirely on those two pieces of dialogue, it looks like Loghain was spot on about the danger of letting Orlais in, even if he was wrong about pretty much everything else going back to Orlais in his paranoia. 

 

We also know that the moment he got back to Denerim, he immediately tried rebuilding the army ad called for more troops, declaring that the darkspawn had to be defeated quickly, sensibly and without hesitation. But Teagan questions him and his loyalty, the bannorn mutter, and then civil war is declared later. We also know that we totally missed the signal. And based on the overhead view of the battle, had Loghain charged, the darkspawn which were still pouring out of the wilds probably would have flanked him, and there was no guarantee that Cailan would have been saved in that charge. 

 

In regards to Ostagar, if the army was used as bait as Daveth suggests, in order to draw the darkspawn out of the wilds and lure them to charge a defensive line, then the army probably could have waited for reinforcements before engaging. If the darkspawn were coming out anyway, then they would have had no choice. 

 

But we know that the scouts reports were sporadic, and most didn't survive their missions, and those that did were either badly injured, or like that one we can speak with in Ostagar, absolutely terrified. I say this based on listening to dialogue soldiers have with each other, and talking to the scouts, the one in the wilds we can save, and the one being tended to who is terrified. 

[dragonflight288]

Of course, one then has to question how Anora and Genitivi are in the know on what the Wardens' Joining entails, if it's so secret. Granted, Genitivi is noted, by many, to be an unreliable narrator because people question the integrity of his stories. To them, they sound very fanciful, regardless of the truth involved.

 

And Anora, being a politician, would probably understand the Wardens' desire for secrecy.

 

As for why Cailan and Loghain are kept in the dark, I have no idea why that happened either. A smart Duncan would've told them in privacy, or at least entertained the notion aloud to us so we could see it was something in his mind.

 

Instead, he's very.... inept. Duncan's not a bad commander, but he's also not a good commander either.

 

Especially considering his rather chatty attitude with Maric in The Calling about the Wards, which makes me question what the hell was going on with him.

 

Eh, he was likely being way over cautious since his predecessor was caught working with the darkspawn and a few centuries earlier the Warden Commander Sophia Dryden tried to raise a rebellion and got the Wardens exiled. 

[Lady Artifice]

No, but we shouldn't dismiss it either. I keep thinking that while you admit he does it, I feel like you're also implying "Welp, thaaaat's Alistair". People that have the tendency, or the ability to melt into that way of thinking.... is very risky. You have people that show that kind of behavior before handing them the crown? You take a major risk in having that attitude be your king. Speculation, yes... but it does give serious pause. Really, I don't think Loghain, nor Alistair should be running a country. But yeah I will give you "hardened Alistair", even though I feel weird putting it like that. I feel when we talk like that, it makes it feel too gamey. But I will say "hardened Alistair" was the best Alistair by far.

 

 

 

I feel the same way about the, "I condemn the morality of Loghain at Ostagar even while I defend the practicallity of it" argument.

 

 

It comes back to an early part of our discussion, when I came off as thinking you were saying Loghain and Alistair are the same. I didn't think that, but your comment "People kill me how they try and separate the two" was something I took issue with.

 

While not excusing Alistair's decision to abandon the fight, I still insist that the intent and the reprehensibillity of it are not on par with the large scale murder and betrayal Loghain commited, out of a misguided sense of false pragmatism. Loghain's justifications only hold water if one assumes there is legitimacy to his prejudiced, paranoid delusions in regards to distrusting the (primarily foreign) Grey Wardens. Loghain believed his decision was for the good of Ferelden within his own mind. We know for certain that, in practice, it was not.  

 

Loghain knows his betrayal will cause massive amounts of death, Alistair does not know that his can. I still don't like that he does it, but I certainly think that saying it's in line with what Loghain did at Ostagar is...reeeeallly stretching it.

 

I admit an emotional bias in favor of Alistair..._{I usually romance him.}

 

What would you prefer to call it over hardened? Like maybe...Hmm, Dark Alistair? Practical Alistair? Less whimpy but more angry and miserable Alistair?

 

 

By the way... *shifty eyes* _{Do you usually spare Anders?}

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Of course, one then has to question how Anora and Genitivi are in the know on what the Wardens' Joining entails, if it's so secret. Granted, Genitivi is noted, by many, to be an unreliable narrator because people question the integrity of his stories. To them, they sound very fanciful, regardless of the truth involved.

 

And Anora, being a politician, would probably understand the Wardens' desire for secrecy.

 

As for why Cailan and Loghain are kept in the dark, I have no idea why that happened either. A smart Duncan would've told them in privacy, or at least entertained the notion aloud to us so we could see it was something in his mind.

 

Instead, he's very.... inept. Duncan's not a bad commander, but he's also not a good commander either.

 

Especially considering his rather chatty attitude with Maric in The Calling about the Wards, which makes me question what the hell was going on with him.

This is the part where I just throw up my hands and give up trying to be at all logical.

[Aimi]

Another bit of in-game dialogue. 
 
Daveth: I hear that the darkspawn came out of the wilds, see. That's why the army's here, dangling meat in front of the bear if you take my meaning.
 
From what I can gather, the army gathered at Ostagar because it's a good defensive position, and they positioned themselves close enough that they would draw the darkspawn out. 
 
If this is true, then the army could have waited to gather and build up reinforcements. If it's not, then everything you said makes a great deal of sense. 
 
So, based on what we know from in-game dialogue, Cailan is in it for the glory, is bored with strategy meetings and is relying heavily upon the Wardens. The Wardens are keeping why they know it's a blight secret, and no one outside the order understands why they are so confident about this fact. Loghain was arguing with Cailan for days, and the biggest point of contention is the arrival of the Orlesian Chevalier's and Wardens. 
 
Side note, during the Landsmeet, Loghain says that Orlais promised four legions of chevalier's. Going by Roman Legion numbers, that's roughly 12,000 troops. But Riordan tells the warden he came with 200 divisions of calvary plus 400 Wardens. A division's numbers aren't so easily quantified, as it can be anywhere from 1,000 to 5,000 soldiers, meaning we can expect somewhere between 20,000 to 200,000 soldiers. This is a very large gap, but based on these two pieces of dialogue, it looks like the Orlesians were sending far more soldiers than Loghain was told to expect. This means, based entirely on those two pieces of dialogue, it looks like Loghain was spot on about the danger of letting Orlais in, even if he was wrong about pretty much everything else going back to Orlais in his paranoia. 
 
We also know that the moment he got back to Denerim, he immediately tried rebuilding the army ad called for more troops, declaring that the darkspawn had to be defeated quickly, sensibly and without hesitation. But Teagan questions him and his loyalty, the bannorn mutter, and then civil war is declared later. We also know that we totally missed the signal. And based on the overhead view of the battle, had Loghain charged, the darkspawn which were still pouring out of the wilds probably would have flanked him, and there was no guarantee that Cailan would have been saved in that charge. 
 
In regards to Ostagar, if the army was used as bait as Daveth suggests, in order to draw the darkspawn out of the wilds and lure them to charge a defensive line, then the army probably could have waited for reinforcements before engaging. If the darkspawn were coming out anyway, then they would have had no choice. 
 
But we know that the scouts reports were sporadic, and most didn't survive their missions, and those that did were either badly injured, or like that one we can speak with in Ostagar, absolutely terrified. I say this based on listening to dialogue soldiers have with each other, and talking to the scouts, the one in the wilds we can save, and the one being tended to who is terrified.

I don't see how Daveth's dialogue changes anything. Ostagar is a good defensive position: that's why the Fereldans were fighting there. That doesn't mean that the darkspawn just stop when they get there. They obviously keep attacking. It's harder for them to attack there than it would be otherwise - which is one reason why it's a bad idea for the Fereldan army to withdraw - but it's still possible. So they still can't wait the darkspawn out: they'll be attacked before the reinforcements get there, one way or the other.

What, exactly, could the army do between the war council and the battle to prevent the battle from happening while still retaining its Ostagar position? Or, hell, what could it have done between Duncan's arrival and the battle to the same effect? There is no specific action over that time that draws the darkspawn out of the Wilds into battle - and therefore, no specific action that can have been avoided to prevent the darkspawn from coming out of the Wilds. Going by what we know from the game, the darkspawn horde was attacking, full stop.

---

Yeah, there's dissension in the Fereldan command. Great battles have been won with less promising matrices for success. Look, for example, at Chickamauga during the American Civil War, or at Philippoi during Antonivs and Octavivs' war with Caesar's assassins. Battle is a lottery, and force multipliers let one side buy more tickets than the other. The Fereldan army had more force multipliers - and numbers - at Ostagar than it was likely to have anywhere else.

---

Also, "legion" has no intrinsic meaning, and certainly doesn't always indicate the same number of troops. Even the Romans used the formation to indicate anything from a thousand to five or ten thousand soldiers; later armies that used the term "legion" were just as variable. Light-Horse Harry Lee, an American revolutionary general, commanded a "legion" of less than 300 men. Loghain's statement about "four legions of chevaliers" has no numerical meaning. One can make guesses about it, but building further guesses upon those guesses is pointless. Same is true of "divisions". The numbers we get in the game are simply there for verisimilitude, because it would be ridiculous for soldiers to discuss armies without ever mentioning some kind of numbers...but they are not there for analysis, because the writers rightfully believed that getting too in-depth about this sort of thing would add nothing to the story while potentially making it weaker. The kind of work needed to have numbers that were plausible and meaningful simply wouldn't be worth it.

I mean, look at the numbers you just quoted. "200 divisions of cavalry" (with no accompanying infantry formation?) would, if compared to a standard European twentieth-century division (which is the most commonly used meaning of that formation), give a total of a fifth of a million men or more. That's ridiculous. Nobody could raise an army like that in medieval Europe, let alone use it as an expeditionary force. And even if they could have gotten an army like that together somehow, it would not have been wholly comprised of cavalry. 200,000 cavalry would have broken the bank for pretty much any preindustrial country, including the Roman and Chinese empires at their heights. We're meant to do one of three things:

1. Not use the standard meaning of the word "division" for these troops.
2. Concede that the writing is militarily imprecise to the point where it tells us little to nothing useful about the situation.
3. Conclude that the game's writing was in earnest and simply makes no sense.

1 and 2 seem like more palatable options, no? Actually, 2 is clearly a good choice based on another thing you bring up, the cutscene depiction of the Battle of Ostagar, and honestly, of combat in general in BioWare games. Large-scale battles are almost never depicted accurately in Hollywood or in video games; it's simply too much trouble to do the research and insufficiently dramatic if it comes out right. This is not a bad thing, but it does mean that we can't place too much of a factual burden on battle cutscenes in games. At Ostagar, we are shown a Fereldan army drawn up under the walls of a fortress with defensive works in place (abatis, palisades, etc.) that immediately abandons those works in favor of a last-second charge that serves no purpose but to separate its formations. They give one volley of arrow fire on the verbal order of a single man and do not use their mages at all, even though mages would absolutely annihilate any formation packed closer than a Second World War skirmish line. The battle then degenerates into a vast open-order brawl in which individual combatants duel against each other (lolwut) with zero meaningful formation (no flanks, center, or rear) and are spread apart so widely that we must conclude that both sides have already suffered something like 60 or 70 percent casualties because there's almost nobody left.

It looks dramatic. It looks stupid. It makes no sense.

So we shouldn't draw too much of a conclusion from the apparent size of the darkspawn horde, or the relative positions of what the forces appear to be. (Even if we did, and even if that led us to a conclusion that the bulk of the army under Loghain was way smaller than the darkspawn horde, the horde's size probably wouldn't help much. Larger formations - and I use the word "formation" lightly with respect to anything in Dragon Age - are significantly harder to maneuver. If the darkspawn were drawn up in a series of individual formations with individual leaders, spaced properly to avoid mass confusion and improve articulation...yeah, there might be some worry about the flank attack being repulsed by sheer mass. But they're just a big blob. That, as well, might be down to inaccurate cutscenes...which only emphasizes the pointlessness of drawing any conclusions at all from them.)

---

The infamous signal at Ostagar doesn't make much sense to me, either. It's part of the ridiculous mishmash of horrific timing and nonsensical plot that makes up that battle's storyline.

After the war council, Duncan heads down into the valley with the king and his men. The Fereldan army is drawn up for battle. The darkspawn appear. Battle is actually joined. This, realistically, should have taken anywhere from half an hour to multiple hours. Whatever the time interval was, it would also have been the perfect time for the Hero and Alistair to make their way over to the Tower of Ishal to be ready as soon as the beacon needs to be lit. Instead, they have moved a grand total of twenty feet through the portal next to the fortress's bridge. What were they doing, having a quickie in the teyrn's tent?

Then, they run through the fortress, which is already under attack, and fight their way through more darkspawn. From a game design perspective, this makes sense: the player participates in the battle, which lends it a sense of realness and gives a sense of progression through time and space. If "stuff" isn't happening around a player, the passage of time in the game can seem like an illusion, so using a battle as a backdrop and for gameplay removes that sense of timelessness. But problematically, there's no actual time-critical element to any of it except in a narrative sense. You know you're supposed to be up at the tower, but the game doesn't impose a penalty on you for, say, farting around looting hurlocks or picking deathroot. There's not just no negative consequence for dilly-dallying, there's no consequence at all: the battle doesn't seem to change, insofar as you can see it. Timelessness restored. And from a chronological (or even just plain logical) perspective, the narrative is total lunacy.

Alistair makes note of the probability that they've already missed the signal during this "mad dash". How would he know? The tower isn't exactly open to the air, not even at the top, where the beacon is supposed to be lit! How would he even be able to see it in the first place? You've got a few stained-glass windows, some of which have cracks and holes in them, none of which afford a view of the battle below. Any signal would have to be virtually at the same height as the top of the tower, in which case Loghain and his men could see it anyway. What's the point of the tower, then? What is this mysterious signal in the first place, and why isn't the Hero told what it is? Who would be sending it, and why? What point in the battle is it supposed to mark? And if the Hero and Alistair are late, why is the only reason for that a completely unexplained time-skip?

And what was the narrative point of introducing a presumably late beacon anyway? Loghain's reaction to it makes little sense. If he thought that the beacon was too late and that the king's troops were already in danger of being overrun, the fact that he had that knowledge implies that he knew when would have been a good time to attack, and deliberately passed it up in favor of waiting for the beacon. It also raises the question of why he didn't withdraw when he first decided it was too late, rather than leave the army in place to be possibly overrun by darkspawn waiting for a beacon to signal that it's too late to join the fight. On the flip side, if he didn't base his decision on the beacon at all, then why didn't he just retreat at the beginning? If he was withdrawing to save the army, he'd have a head start; if he was withdrawing to betray his king, he gained nothing by keeping the army in potential danger while a battle raged just over the ridge.

The late beacon also doesn't have an effect on Alistair's or the Hero's character. There are no guilt trips over the forced tardiness for either Warden. Alistair feels more guilty for the fact that he obeyed Duncan's orders than for anything else. The Hero has essentially no chance to express emotion at all, and certainly not over the beacon thing: any sadness dialogues over the Battle of Ostagar relate to the Wardens' and the king's sacrifice, and any anger relates to Loghain.

Just like with many other aspects of the Ostagar story, I can't simply wish the beacon away. But it makes very little sense and has a place in the story that enhanced nothing and confused much. It's an example of why the writers probably shouldn't get too detailed with the military stuff...because when they try to add specific tactics like this beacon thing, those tactics don't make any sense and simply muddy the waters.

[Lady Artifice]

Alistair makes note of the probability that they've already missed the signal during this "mad dash". How would he know? The tower isn't exactly open to the air, not even at the top, where the beacon is supposed to be lit! How would he even be able to see it in the first place? You've got a few stained-glass windows, some of which have cracks and holes in them, none of which afford a view of the battle below. Any signal would have to be virtually at the same height as the top of the tower, in which case Loghain and his men could see it anyway. What's the point of the tower, then? What is this mysterious signal in the first place, and why isn't the Hero told what it is? Who would be sending it, and why? What point in the battle is it supposed to mark? And if the Hero and Alistair are late, why is the only reason for that a completely unexplained time-skip?

And what was the narrative point of introducing a presumably late beacon anyway? Loghain's reaction to it makes little sense. If he thought that the beacon was too late and that the king's troops were already in danger of being overrun, the fact that he had that knowledge implies that he knew when would have been a good time to attack, and deliberately passed it up in favor of waiting for the beacon. It also raises the question of why he didn't withdraw when he first decided it was too late, rather than leave the army in place to be possibly overrun by darkspawn waiting for a beacon to signal that it's too late to join the fight. On the flip side, if he didn't base his decision on the beacon at all, then why didn't he just retreat at the beginning? If he was withdrawing to save the army, he'd have a head start; if he was withdrawing to betray his king, he gained nothing by keeping the army in potential danger while a battle raged just over the ridge.

The late beacon also doesn't have an effect on Alistair's or the Hero's character. There are no guilt trips over the forced tardiness for either Warden. Alistair feels more guilty for the fact that he obeyed Duncan's orders than for anything else. The Hero has essentially no chance to express emotion at all, and certainly not over the beacon thing: any sadness dialogues over the Battle of Ostagar relate to the Wardens' and the king's sacrifice, and any anger relates to Loghain.

Just like with many other aspects of the Ostagar story, I can't simply wish the beacon away. But it makes very little sense and has a place in the story that enhanced nothing and confused much. It's an example of why the writers probably shouldn't get too detailed with the military stuff...because when they try to add specific tactics like this beacon thing, those tactics don't make any sense and simply muddy the waters.

 

 

Loghain wasn't reacting to a late beacon. It wasn't late enough for it to matter. He had planned on abandoning the army from the moment he didn't get the outcome he wanted out of the war council. His line of "A glorious moment for us all" was him giving up on trying to get Cailan to listen to reason (as Loghain percieved it). He doesn't usually patronize him, but he did in that moment only because he saw the fight as lost, and Cailan lost with it since he insisted on being on the field.

 

Everything else...Nonsensical is a fair accusation.

[Aimi]

Loghain wasn't reacting to a late beacon. It wasn't late enough for it to matter. He had planned on abandoning the army from the moment he didn't get the outcome he wanted out of the war council. His line of "A glorious moment for us all" was him giving up on trying to get Cailan to listen to reason (as Loghain percieved it). He doesn't usually patronize him, but he did in that moment only because he saw the fight as lost, and Cailan lost with it since he insisted on being on the field.

That's certainly one possible interpretation, but if that's the case, then why didn't Loghain leave immediately? Why wait until the beacon was lit?