3201 réponses à ce sujet

[I_am_Spartacus]

I personaly can't wait to get rid of Alister so I spare him to sacrifice to the Archdemon.

[Althix]

This is like saying slavery was okay because African Americans didn't have equal rights therefore not really a horrible thing.

 

I just can't believe that you are arguing to minimize selling citizens into slavery.

I am not. "They are just elves" © Howe. And i am pretty sure majority of nobles have the very same position about the elves. As i said, it's just another type of ammunition against Loghain.

 

Do you recall what Eamon said? He almost accused Loghain in the attempt to usurp the throne. Besides there is difference between noble and a peasant, so freedoms of Eamon have.. well very vague definition.

 

You see i find Loghain guilty in many aspects, but i don't find his guilt that huge, to end his life. Besides players in the most cases look on themselfs as on white knights. But if you think about it, how many people died in the process of acquiring support we need and to reach the goal set before us? right.

 

So Loghain is doing the very same thing actually, he have a goal, unfortunatelly his advisor is... well not that good. Both player and Loghain are doing things to reach the very same goal, but by different methods.

 

Another thing that game is just keep pushing a player to make a very simple decision, to kill Loghain. When the man did not actually deserved it.

 

His crimes are many, and in order to atone these crimes he must live.

 

Crimes of the Duncan for example, maybe not that many, but just as severe.

[TEWR]

Live.

 

Truthfully, it depends on the Warden, but really there are only few acceptable reasons for someone who wants to be objective to execute him. The slavery, for all the reasons that explain it (because it's NOT a simple black and white thing. Reprehensible, but not B&W), is certainly a valid reason to kill him.

[Althix]

just as a side note from 5-12 years for slavery and/or slave trade. (well up 25 to guess)

[Han Shot First]

That was actually historically the kill symbol right? And the thumbs down was the spare?

 

Thumbs up was 'live,' but there was no thumbs down gesture. The signal for death was turning your thumb towards your throat and making a stabbing motion. It was an imitation of how the coup de grace was often delivered. The defeated gladiator would be on his knees with one finger raised in the air (a plea for mercy). If the crowd wasn't feeling merciful or didn't like his performance and the the mob started jabbing their thumbs towards their throats, the game's sponsor  would usually follow suit and give the signal for the defeated to be slain. At that point the victor would usually drive his blade down through the throat of the defeated gladiator and into his heart. 

[Ryzaki]

Yikes. Thanks for the information

[Monica21]

His guilt not being huge enough to warrant death is always a debatable point which I don't really get because even if you dismiss every single thing he did outside of sending an assassin after you, you still have that and I'm fairly sure that is attempted murder and of the last grey wardens who are the only ones that can stop the blight. Even if he didn't believe that only they could stop the blight, you have an assassin who has just attempted to kill you, hired by loghain. Maybe it's not worthy of death but given the options are so screwed up in this game because they want to be idiots about it, I'm not going to risk losing Alistair for loghain so loghain dies. Had the game handled this more intelligently and less manipulatively or in such a contrived way, I would just let him rot in prison. But because the game removes this option by penalizing me for it by taking a really good warrior, I say then technically death or release is the only option and release is not an option since he did try to have me killed.

You're an Alistair fan, which is cool, because I like his character. That said, you don't understand Alistair. These are not contrivances. Alistair does the only interesting thing he does in the entire game by turning on you if you spare Loghain. That is Alistair's breaking point and the point at which he believes you have betrayed him. It is not contrived in the least. His hatred for Loghain is apparent as early as waking up in Flemeth's hut and continues throughout the game. You know exactly what he wants to do and he knows you know, despite whatever your responses may be. This is intended to be the one thing you can't change his mind on and the writers did an excellent job continuing that thread throughout the game.

 

Now, while I think it's interesting, I still think it's a bad decision on Alistair's part. He idolizes Duncan and he never really understood the purpose of the Wardens. They are not white knights, but in his mind Loghain is somehow not good enough to be a Warden, when the truth is only that Alistair will hold Loghain responsible for Duncan's death until the day he dies.

 

If Alistair didn't demand Loghain's death, if you could recruit Loghain and keep Alistair, would you?

[ShadowLordXII]

You're an Alistair fan, which is cool, because I like his character. That said, you don't understand Alistair. These are not contrivances. Alistair does the only interesting thing he does in the entire game by turning on you if you spare Loghain. That is Alistair's breaking point and the point at which he believes you have betrayed him. It is not contrived in the least. His hatred for Loghain is apparent as early as waking up in Flemeth's hut and continues throughout the game. You know exactly what he wants to do and he knows you know, despite whatever your responses may be. This is intended to be the one thing you can't change his mind on and the writers did an excellent job continuing that thread throughout the game.

 

Now, while I think it's interesting, I still think it's a bad decision on Alistair's part. He idolizes Duncan and he never really understood the purpose of the Wardens. They are not white knights, but in his mind Loghain is somehow not good enough to be a Warden, when the truth is only that Alistair will hold Loghain responsible for Duncan's death until the day he dies.

 

If Alistair didn't demand Loghain's death, if you could recruit Loghain and keep Alistair, would you?

 

-starlitegirl is likely talking more about the situation of recruiting Loghain as being a contrivance. Having Loghain be recruited as Alistair's breaking point isn't bad, it's how the whole thing was mechanically handled that's the problem, as I'd mentioned a few pages back.

[Althix]

His guilt not being huge enough to warrant death is always a debatable point

Assassin hired by Howe.

 

Anyhow. In this particular situation player is a judge, jury and executioner. Do you know why family members and people in relationships are not allowed to testify? Right.

So the fact that assassins were hired after me is out of the picture. It's a personal cause.

 

I have no problems with leaving of Alistair. I have zero patience for 20 years old child, who are trying to avenge a man who is responsible in some many deaths. So if i am about to trade child for a mature man, a general no less and a friend later on. I will do so. Because he is sentenced to death anyhow, it's just a matter of how many good deeds he will be able to make before dying.

 

As i said, Loghain is guilty in many crimes, whatever his reason were, crimes are crimes. But none of these crimes are worthy of death. None.

 

Although i still have a feeling that this entire situation with choosing is kinda... artificial. But again, Alistair is full of youthful maximalism. So i can understand his position, but i will not accept it.

[Ryzaki]

-starlitegirl is likely talking more about the situation of recruiting Loghain as being a contrivance. Having Loghain be recruited as Alistair's breaking point isn't bad, it's how the whole thing was mechanically handled that's the problem, as I'd mentioned a few pages back.

 

Not to mention the hurr durr we can somehow make Loghain a warden but no one else because woe betide you have a decent alternative to the DR.

[Han Shot First]

.As i said, Loghain is guilty in many crimes, whatever his reason were, crimes are crimes. But none of these crimes are worthy of death. None.

 

 

That really depends on character origin and how much (or how little) your character identifies with both the Wardens and the nation of Ferelden. Is Loghain an accomplice in your family's murder? Is he partly responsible for the outrages committed by Howe's men in your family's alienage? Was Duncan a father-figure and the slain Wardens at Ostagar your comrades-in-arms? Was your character either personally loyal to King Cailan or to the nation of Ferelden in general, and does he or she view Loghain as a traitor?

 

There are plenty of reasons to kill Loghain.

[Shadow Fox]

Assassin hired by Howe.

 

Anyhow. In this particular situation player is a judge, jury and executioner. Do you know why family members and people in relationships are not allowed to testify? Right.

So the fact that assassins were hired after me is out of the picture. It's a personal cause.

 

I have no problems with leaving of Alistair. I have zero patience for 20 years old child, who are trying to avenge a man who is responsible in some many deaths. So if i am about to trade child for a mature man, a general no less and a friend later on. I will do so. Because he is sentenced to death anyhow, it's just a matter of how many good deeds he will be able to make before dying.

 

As i said, Loghain is guilty in many crimes, whatever his reason were, crimes are crimes. But none of these crimes are worthy of death. None.

 

Although i still have a feeling that this entire situation with choosing is kinda... artificial. But again, Alistair is full of youthful maximalism. So i can understand his position, but i will not accept it.

You completely missed Howe having to get Loghain's approval didn't you?

 

Really? I don't consider ignoring your nation burning around you while you strong arm others into following you,wasting money and resources trying to kill two people and refusing aid from and vilifying an entire military order because of a war fought 30 years ago the actions of a mature rational man.

 

To you maybe to me treason,slavery and attempted murder of innocents are worthy of death.

[BurningBlood]

Disclaimer: I read the OP and skimmed the posts on page 10, that's all.

 

My first, and so far only, complete playthrough was as a Dwarf Commoner (I have played all the origins up to Ostagar, however).

 

Nearing the Landsmeet, I had a suspicion that a Grey Warden was going to have to die in order to stop the Blight.  I had no details yet, of course, but some codex entries and even some party camp conversations (Zevran in particular) had implied it.  My Warden was not the type to sacrifice himself willingly, and had just spent far too much effort putting Alistair on the throne alongside Anora to let Alistair die.  An alternative was not apparent, however - until Riordan shows up at the Landsmeet and hands me the perfect solution, and shortly afterward confirms my suspicions about the Wardens' sacrifice.  The Blight will end, Loghain will die, Alistair will rule, the Warden will live.

 

Then Morrigan throws a wrench into my perfect machinery.  If I'd known about the Ritual sooner, I'd gone with that option and executed Loghain; but it's too late for that now, Loghain is in the next room and Alistair has abandoned me.  Morrigan's argument is seductive: I can't guarantee that Loghain will be able to deliver the fatal blow.  Through my conversations with Loghain I've even come to respect him somewhat, albeit grudgingly and with some rather large reservations.  Unfortunately for him, he's too dangerous to let live.  Loghain the Warden is a threat to my authority as Warden Commander (which I am in effect if not yet in title), and Loghain the hero of River Dane and father of the Queen is a threat to Alistair's rule.  (Plus I had hoped to present Alistair with Loghain's corpse as an offer of reconciliation.)  So the Ritual was refused - and now I've lost Alistair and Morrigan - but thankfully in the end it works out as I had planned, Loghain strikes the fatal blow to the Archdemon and earns a measure of redemption in the process.

[Ryzaki]

Riordan's actions make some sense. He at least wounds the dragon severely enough it can't leave the area completely during the final battlel the rest of it though. Plot induced stupidity at its finest.

[KaiserShep]

Assassin hired by Howe.

 

Anyhow. In this particular situation player is a judge, jury and executioner. Do you know why family members and people in relationships are not allowed to testify? Right.

So the fact that assassins were hired after me is out of the picture. It's a personal cause.

 

Giving us cut scenes that show us information that the PC him/herself could not possibly get colors up how we weigh in on certain decisions, so this is one of the faults of DA:O. While Howe does bring in the assassin, Loghain is the one that ultimately signs off on it. Aside from that, however, Zevran never mentions Howe by name; he only mentions Loghain. So, as far as the Warden is concerned, Loghain hired the assassin.

 

Perhaps you're willing to reject the idea that someone hired an assassin to kill you as a reason to end them, but I for one do not hold to this, especially if I do not have the option to simply toss the offender in a dungeon for the rest of his days.

[Dutchess]

Assassin hired by Howe.

 

Anyhow. In this particular situation player is a judge, jury and executioner. Do you know why family members and people in relationships are not allowed to testify? Right.

So the fact that assassins were hired after me is out of the picture. It's a personal cause.

 

 

LOL, what? I am not following this. When someone survives an attempted murder they have no right or reason to demand satisfaction for that? Because you were the victim instead of another random innocent, it no longer counts as a valid reason? Loghain quitting the field to have the king, the king's army and all the Grey Wardens die, then blame Grey Wardens for the massacre and put a bounty on the heads of the only two survivors goes well beyond a petty personal feud, IMO. Even if your character is extra bitter about Loghains deeds, it does not mean that they are objectively minor. Not at all.

[Ryzaki]

Yeah I guess I can see that he did wound it enough so it couldn't leave only the other side of that is that he knew we only had three wardens. What if one of us or both of us died. Sort of like how three wardens are so much that the demon would sense us and it would ruin our plan. Three? Really? THREE? And it would act differently because there are three of us? That's quite the arch sissy you've got there. Three wardens and it's scared.

Yeah that makes no sense because surely there were more than 3 wardens per area in previous  blights. It's just an excuse for him not to be with the PC.

[DarthGizka]

I don't feel bad for "murdering" a slaver,torturer of innocents,attempted regicide and someone who slandered and tried to kill me just for doing my job.

That sounds almost like reason. However, apart from the first point and last points the jury is still out on these things - whether Loghain is guilty of them and whether they warrant capital punishment.
 

I also don't consider lawful execution murder.

That wasn't a lawful execution. The dork was merely a pretender to the throne, not king yet, and the Warden was abiter, not sovereign. Quite apart from the point that combat was to stop as soon as one party yielded.