3201 réponses à ce sujet

[-TC1989-]

I feel the same way about the, "I condemn the morality of Loghain at Ostagar even while I defend the practicallity of it" argument.

 

 

It comes back to an early part of our discussion, when I came off as thinking you were saying Loghain and Alistair are the same. I didn't think that, but your comment "People kill me how they try and separate the two" was something I took issue with.

 

When I say trying to separate the two, I mean the decisions they were ultimately making. People try to get behind Alistair, as I've read here and there.... that basically say "who cares if Alistair leaves them behind? They hurt his feelings ". While we can nitpick about how many lives would be lost, we know either way... lives lost were going to be staggering. The fact Alistair could make peace with the lives lost on his watch (hypothetically) that he could have prevented, is unforgivable. Loghain at least tries to forget what was done earlier, and is ready to wipe the slate clean (of his own guilt), and take the war to the darkspawn, if it was allowed. When I sit down and see how they are both taking in the situation, I just can't get on board with Alistair. Now more so, but even when I viewed him as a friend, it was just as disgusting then.

 

While not excusing Alistair's decision to abandon the fight, I still insist that the intent and the reprehensibillity of it are not on par with the large scale murder and betrayal Loghain commited, out of a misguided sense of false pragmatism. Loghain's justifications only hold water if one assumes there is legitimacy to his prejudiced, paranoid delusions in regards to distrusting the (primarily foreign) Grey Wardens. Loghain believed his decision was for the good of Ferelden within his own mind. We know for certain that, in practice, it was not. 

Loghain knows his betrayal will cause massive amounts of death, Alistair does not know that his can. I still don't like that he does it, but I certainly think that saying it's in line with what Loghain did at Ostagar is...reeeeallly stretching it.

I admit an emotional bias in favor of Alistair...I usually romance him.

What would you prefer to call it over hardened? Like maybe...Hmm, Dark Alistair? Practical Alistair? Less whimpy but more angry and miserable Alistair?

 

But imagine the repercussions of Alistair not being there. We didn't know at the time, what his leaving meant for the war. But just imagine if he had stayed, and we died? Him being there could have saved Ferelden from dying. If the game did go about it that way, Ferelden would be one big poisoned wasteland. That is miles worse than what Loghain did. That is what Alistair was deciding, even if he didn't know. He had to know his presence was a very big deal. Even if not knowing that Archdemons die specifically by Wardens, but that Wardens fight darkspawn. He ultimately betrayed his oath to not only the Wardens, but Duncan.

 

Heh, It wasn't specifically calling Alistair "hardened", it was the fact of labeling him. Alistair is Alistair, if you get me. That is me being too... er immersed into the lore of things, but it does sort of irk me. 

 

Buuuut.... as I type all this.... I realize I am talking to a biased Alistair fan. Did I ever have a chance of winning this conversation?

By the way... *shifty eyes* Do you usually spare Anders?

 

I couldn't stand the man, so no.

[Lady Artifice]

 

 

Buuuut.... as I type all this.... I realize I am talking to a biased Alistair fan. Did I ever have a chance of winning this conversation?

 

 

 

 

Well, probably not of convincing me...but you seem to own the majority view, at least right now on this specific threat.

 

And you are very good at being an example to the Bioware fanbase of how differences of opinion can reasonably be expressed without...becoming totally deranged.

 

I've enjoyed debating with you. That counts for something.

[Lady Artifice]

That's certainly one possible interpretation, but if that's the case, then why didn't Loghain leave immediately? Why wait until the beacon was lit?

 

If one of Cailan's elite had realized the betrayal, getting Cailan out of there would have become priority.

 

Loghain didn't want Cailan dead, but once he'd decided to let it happen, he needed to make sure it would happen. The battle had to be in full swing, with Cailan in the thick of it, and all his personal guard there as well before anyone realized his game.

 

If Cailan turned up in Denerim a few days later, Loghain would have dangled.

 

Keep in mind, I don't think it's a good plan even then, but I'm in the school of thought that Loghain stopped being the functional tactician he once was sometime after Rowan, and his wife, and Maric all died...

[-TC1989-]

Well, probably not of convincing me...but you seem to own the majority view, at least right now on this specific threat.

 

And you are very good at being an example to the Bioware fanbase of how differences of opinion can reasonably be expressed without...becoming totally deranged.

 

I've enjoyed debating with you. That counts for something.

 

I'll take that. 

 

By the way, I have enjoyed it as well. Thank you for also being a fine example that not everyone on this site is a delusional hypocrite.

[Bardox9]

My main reason for letting Loghain live is because I think that Alistair and Anora  ruling together is the best option. Anora knows and plays the court better than anyone. She is a good queen. Bit of b^tch, but a good queen. I want someone I trust leading Ferelden's army. Something Alistair would be good at... once he stops pouting... Plus as King, if Anora starts to display any of her fathers tyrannical behavior, Alistair can step in and over rule her.

 

Granted, that doesn't mean that Alistair is removed from your party. I Choose to let Loghain live specifically so that Alistair will leave and not be present for the final battle. The front lines is not the place for the King to be. It's the biggest blunder Calilan makes during the planning for the Ostagar battle, IMO. Making Alistair king and removing him from the party leaves you a man down. A spot that Loghain can easily fill.

 

Even on my first play through I let Loghain live for this reason. If the joining kills him, serves him right. If the Joining doesn't kill him, I have another skilled warrior at my command. I've tried all the various endings atleast once. This makes the most sense to me as far as Loghain's fate goes.

[dragonflight288]

My main reason for letting Loghain live is because I think that Alistair and Anora  ruling together is the best option. Anora knows and plays the court better than anyone. She is a good queen. Bit of b^tch, but a good queen. I want someone I trust leading Ferelden's army. Something Alistair would be good at... once he stops pouting... Plus as King, if Anora starts to display any of her fathers tyrannical behavior, Alistair can step in and over rule her.

 

Granted, that doesn't mean that Alistair is removed from your party. I Choose to let Loghain live specifically so that Alistair will leave and not be present for the final battle. The front lines is not the place for the King to be. It's the biggest blunder Calilan makes during the planning for the Ostagar battle, IMO. Making Alistair king and removing him from the party leaves you a man down. A spot that Loghain can easily fill.

 

Even on my first play through I let Loghain live for this reason. If the joining kills him, serves him right. If the Joining doesn't kill him, I have another skilled warrior at my command. I've tried all the various endings atleast once. This makes the most sense to me as far as Loghain's fate goes.

 

Did you do the Dark Ritual?

 

I find it amusingly ironic that Loghain gets sent to Orlais to serve in Awakening should he live. To him, that may very well be a fate worse than death. 

[Bardox9]

Did you do the Dark Ritual?

 

I find it amusingly ironic that Loghain gets sent to Orlais to serve in Awakening should he live. To him, that may very well be a fate worse than death. 

I always do. Well, not "always". I did kill my warden once for each origin just to see what happened, but after that I do the ritual... or in the case of a female character, have Alistair/Loghain do it. (Which is hilarious if you haven't done it.)

[Dabrikishaw]

Found it! Here is what it says:

 

"It was actually confirmed via the Bioware Devs on Twitter that Loghain had no idea about the slavery; the Tevinter magisters created the "Plague" in the Alienage, and Loghain authorized the removal of the sick elves in the belief that the magisters could cure them of said plague and because that's what you often had to do in such communities in the past; either remove the sick ones and limit the spread of the disease, or doom everyone to a slow and painful death.

Only later (albeit before the Landsmeet, in which he creates a great speech about it all being "necessary" for the war) did he truly understand who he had been dealing with."

 

 

This is funny.

 

That's all I came back here to say. Really don't feel like going in circles with this debate anymore.

[WarriorOfLight999]

An interesting find, but from my interpretation, Loghain's dialogue does not seem to conform to that. A retcon, perhaps? Or poor development? It doesn't really matter.

[Monica21]

Of course, one then has to question how Anora and Genitivi are in the know on what the Wardens' Joining entails, if it's so secret. Granted, Genitivi is noted, by many, to be an unreliable narrator because people question the integrity of his stories. To them, they sound very fanciful, regardless of the truth involved.

 

And Anora, being a politician, would probably understand the Wardens' desire for secrecy.

 

I think Anora simply says that the Joining can be fatal. She doesn't say why it's fatal, so it's possible she doesn't know the details, or that she does know the details and is helping the Wardens keep the secret while at the same time trying to say that even if her father dies trying to become a Warden, she still doesn't want him to die. As for how Anora knew, well, she is the Queen and I'd imagine, given her involvement in Ferelden, she knew about the large supply of Archdemon blood in Denerim and probably even why it was needed.

 

I can't remember about Genitivi though. Is he specific about the Joining?

[Radan]

Little off topic but I hope that the Dark Ritual makes something horrible happen in Inquisition, it was pretty much a get out of the ultimate sacrifice free card.

[dragonflight288]

Little off topic but I hope that the Dark Ritual makes something horrible happen in Inquisition, it was pretty much a get out of the ultimate sacrifice free card.

 

Like, a ten year old boy able to control darkspawn, and can use them whenever he throws a tantrum?

[qOjOp]

...well I did this to Loghain Mac Tir. Then afterwards, Alistair chopped off the Big Mac's head. My reasoning is simple. He did alot of bad stuff and I refuse to loose Al over the Big Mac...

Strike me there and I glow

[Colbyachi]

Kill Loghian imo, is one of the dumbest decisions you can make in this game. He is a skilled leader, warrior, loyal, respected, cunning, pragmatist, and ruthless. This is the definition of who I would want standing next to me in a fight. 

[TEWR]

Like, a ten year old boy able to control darkspawn, and can use them whenever he throws a tantrum?

 

So... Jade Chan, the Queen of All Shadow-Khan?

 

Of course, considering Morrigan raised him and potentially had the Warden as well, who may have aligned with the Architect, chances of OGB turning bad aren't all that high.

[TEWR]

I think Anora simply says that the Joining can be fatal. She doesn't say why it's fatal, so it's possible she doesn't know the details, or that she does know the details and is helping the Wardens keep the secret while at the same time trying to say that even if her father dies trying to become a Warden, she still doesn't want him to die. As for how Anora knew, well, she is the Queen and I'd imagine, given her involvement in Ferelden, she knew about the large supply of Archdemon blood in Denerim and probably even why it was needed.

 

I can't remember about Genitivi though. Is he specific about the Joining?

 

Very specific. He mentions it in the Soldier's Peak codex on how they drink Darkspawn blood.

[Fardreamer]

Loghain should die... but he shouldn't be executed.  Letting him take the final blow against the Archdemon seems to be a fitting end for him.  Everything he did, he thought he was doing for Fereldon.  If you read the book... I forget the title, but it's the one about Loghain and Maric, you get more insight into why he become so paranoid about letting Orlesians back into the country.  I mean, he was forced to watch his mother get raped by a group of Chevaliars.

 

Yes, he commited regicide.  But becoming a Warden was a death sentence anyways.  At least this way he had a chance to redeem some of his honor.

[Jaitheia]

I killed him after the duel with my mage Warden. I almost died during the duel. The logic that I used is that he betrayed the king he sworn to help, and I dont take kindly to betrayal. Plus I didn't want to lose Alistair either, even though Loghain is the last companion I need to get to get the trophie for getting all companions.

[DinkyD]

When I say trying to separate the two, I mean the decisions they were ultimately making. People try to get behind Alistair, as I've read here and there.... that basically say "who cares if Alistair leaves them behind? They hurt his feelings ". While we can nitpick about how many lives would be lost, we know either way... lives lost were going to be staggering. The fact Alistair could make peace with the lives lost on his watch (hypothetically) that he could have prevented, is unforgivable. Loghain at least tries to forget what was done earlier, and is ready to wipe the slate clean (of his own guilt), and take the war to the darkspawn, if it was allowed. When I sit down and see how they are both taking in the situation, I just can't get on board with Alistair. Now more so, but even when I viewed him as a friend, it was just as disgusting then.

 

 

 

 

But imagine the repercussions of Alistair not being there. We didn't know at the time, what his leaving meant for the war. But just imagine if he had stayed, and we died? Him being there could have saved Ferelden from dying. If the game did go about it that way, Ferelden would be one big poisoned wasteland. That is miles worse than what Loghain did. That is what Alistair was deciding, even if he didn't know. He had to know his presence was a very big deal. Even if not knowing that Archdemons die specifically by Wardens, but that Wardens fight darkspawn. He ultimately betrayed his oath to not only the Wardens, but Duncan.

...

 

I think that's using far to much fore knowledge imo –  “deciding, even if he didn't know” - how can he properly evaluate his actions when the full consequences are not known to him? Alistair leaving at the point he does, in his eyes, is the loss of one man among thousands and is very unlikely to sway any battle, as is he preventing the spread of the blight. The work of wardens seems done: they've unitied the country and called upon their treaties. He does not know at this point how directly vital Grey Wardens are. It is hardly comparable to Loghain's decision to withdrawing thousands of his own men at a critical moment. Loghain knows what is likely to happen, and is in fact counting on it.

 

All of the companion characters can turn on you or leave, iirc, thus "betraying" the need to fight the blight - are they similarly responsible for these putative blight deaths? The only difference with Alistair is that he is another Grey Warden. I think the only charge against Alistair that has much merit is him betraying his oath.  But, if you take an oath to an organisation that then becomes irredeemably well “tainted” in one's eyes – is there the same weight of expectation to stand by your oath? If I took an pledge to an organisation that turned out to be different in character than I thought, then I might consider that oath given under an illusion, or under a false characterisation, and so is no longer binding upon me.

 

I certainly would not consider an oath to an organisation that later turned out to be, in my consideration, immoral, would necessarily remain binding; in fact breaking that oath might be the moral thing to do.(not saying this is what happens at the landsmeet, just illustrating the point).

 

Sometimes there are greater principles than keeping promises. Other forms of Justice perhaps?

[-TC1989-]

I think that's using far to much fore knowledge imo –  “deciding, even if he didn't know” - how can he properly evaluate his actions when the full consequences are not known to him? Alistair leaving at the point he does, in his eyes, is the loss of one man among thousands and is very unlikely to sway any battle, as is he preventing the spread of the blight. The work of wardens seems done: they've unitied the country and called upon their treaties. He does not know at this point how directly vital Grey Wardens are. It is hardly comparable to Loghain's decision to withdrawing thousands of his own men at a critical moment. Loghain knows what is likely to happen, and is in fact counting on it.

 

The work of the Warden's seems done? You mean the Archdemon running around freely at this point is a good time to close shop and walk away? Come on. He knows enough to know that Wardens are vital to stopping a blight, and even if he somehow didn't, what do you think would be the point of the Warden's then? You think surviving the joining would mean entering the life of collecting treaties and killing darkspawn here and there? I felt in my first play through.... there is something going on that they are not telling me. Why is the joining, and everything so final? Why do I dream of the Archdemon specifically? What does this all mean? The fact that Alistair is that short sighted is on him, and seeing him put himself before everything else ultimately makes me glad the Wardens won't use him.

 

As far as Loghain goes, I've said enough on him in earlier posts. It would be stupid for him to simply obey Cailan, and throw his life away to be "loyal". And Loghain would fight and die happily for Ferelden, so you're right, it is hardly comparable.... just not in the way you think.

 

 

 

All of the companion characters can turn on you or leave, iirc, thus "betraying" the need to fight the blight - are they similarly responsible for these putative blight deaths? The only difference with Alistair is that he is another Grey Warden.

 

 

Considering when he walks away? He is not only betraying his precious Duncan, or his oath to the Wardens, but his bloodline as a whole. At that point people would know that King Maric's son deserted. I would say when you look at it that way, yeah it does make a bigger deal. To be honest, while I appreciated the help from people like Zevran, Sten or Leliana.... Ferelden is not their home, nor their problem. They are choosing to help fight. So I never held the same expectation from them like I did Alistair.

 

 

I think the only charge against Alistair that has much merit is him betraying his oath.  But, if you take an oath to an organisation that then becomes irredeemably well “tainted” in one's eyes – is there the same weight of expectation to stand by your oath? If I took an pledge to an organisation that turned out to be different in character than I thought, then I might consider that oath given under an illusion, or under a false characterisation, and so is no longer binding upon me.

I certainly would not consider an oath to an organisation that later turned out to be, in my consideration, immoral, would necessarily remain binding; in fact breaking that oath might be the moral thing to do.(not saying this is what happens at the landsmeet, just illustrating the point).

Sometimes there are greater principles than keeping promises. Other forms of Justice perhaps?

 

 

Well lets look at some things then. You join the Wardens, you will know what to expect from drinking that blood. You can stomp your feet and denounce the Wardens, but we know it doesn't work like that. Duncan would kill people over knowing even how to join the Wardens, let alone for desertion. I mention Duncan, because that is the only person Alistair gives a crap for. If Alistair knew how strongly Duncan held on to his beliefs (which he did), he should have made an effort to understand for his sake. Alistair knew that being a Warden meant something very deeply, but he got selfish. If you were a Warden, and Riordan pleaded with you to stick it out, you would say "nah Loghain gets to live, if the country dies, not my problem."? If things like this happened in real life, Alistair would be executed so fast. Whether you think its morally wrong or whatever, it's the law.

 

What boggles my mind, is that people hold this firm belief, that if Alistair gets his feelings hurt, Ferelden should die for it. Do you really think that Riordan truly wanted to keep Loghain alive because they were pals? He kept him alive, because we need any body that can fight, let alone a body that can stop the blight. The fact that Alistair got so into himself at that point speaks volumes to me. But somehow, that is purely opinion.

[WarriorOfLight999]

You make some good points TC, but there are other compelling reasons for wanting Loghain dead, which have absolutely nothing to do with Alistair (I agree that his leaving is reprehensible.)

 

For the record, let's ignore Ostagar, because I don't think it counts against him.

 

Let's take the Cousland Origin. Do you really think a Cousland would spare the life of a man who has not only let Howe live, but actually rewarded him for murdering the Teryn of Highever, his family, and every single innocent inside? Loghain may not have drawn blood, but that blood is still on his hands. He profited from their deaths. Putting that much faith in a man who tortures and kills rival nobles, steals from the treasury, and even kidnaps his own daughter does not make me think much of Loghains' judgement.

 

His daughter is little better. Yes, betray your rescuer. Let your city rot and do nothing while a Civil War rages and a Blight destroys the lands.

 

Frankly, my Cousland Queen has had enough of all three of them. Ferelden will recover after they are gone.

[Lady Artifice]

You make some good points TC, but there are other compelling reasons for wanting Loghain dead, which have absolutely nothing to do with Alistair (I agree that his leaving is reprehensible.)
 
For the record, let's ignore Ostagar, because I don't think it counts against him.
 
Let's take the Cousland Origin. Do you really think a Cousland would spare the life of a man who has not only let Howe live, but actually rewarded him for murdering the Teryn of Highever, his family, and every single innocent inside? Loghain may not have drawn blood, but that blood is still on his hands. He profited from their deaths. Putting that much faith in a man who tortures and kills rival nobles, steals from the treasury, and even kidnaps his own daughter does not make me think much of Loghains' judgement.
 
His daughter is little better. Yes, betray your rescuer. Let your city rot and do nothing while a Civil War rages and a Blight destroys the lands.
 
Frankly, my Cousland Queen has had enough of all three of them. Ferelden will recover after they are gone.

Don't forget the appearance of the chantry mother Mallol and ser...hmm, the young knight Duncan considered recruiting instead of the human noble in the torture chamber at Fort Drakon, if you happen to be held there. People the human noble knew and may have cared for, and their corpses are just strewn one over the other on a rack.

Fun stuff.

[X Equestris]

You make some good points TC, but there are other compelling reasons for wanting Loghain dead, which have absolutely nothing to do with Alistair (I agree that his leaving is reprehensible.)

For the record, let's ignore Ostagar, because I don't think it counts against him.

Let's take the Cousland Origin. Do you really think a Cousland would spare the life of a man who has not only let Howe live, but actually rewarded him for murdering the Teryn of Highever, his family, and every single innocent inside? Loghain may not have drawn blood, but that blood is still on his hands. He profited from their deaths. Putting that much faith in a man who tortures and kills rival nobles, steals from the treasury, and even kidnaps his own daughter does not make me think much of Loghains' judgement.

His daughter is little better. Yes, betray your rescuer. Let your city rot and do nothing while a Civil War rages and a Blight destroys the lands.

Frankly, my Cousland Queen has had enough of all three of them. Ferelden will recover after they are gone.

To be fair to Loghain, Howe managed to put himself into a very advantageous political position. By the time Loghain is back in Denerim, Howe has seized Highever and Denerim, and his troops have sustained relatively few casualties. Loghain can't afford to alienate a man with that much power in a time of crisis. Loghain has to deal with a darkspawn incursion in the south, the (in his mind) threat of an invasion from Orlais, and then a civil war amongst the nobility. Howe is far too powerful to make an enemy of in this situation,

[GodBrandon]

I'm not even going to get started.