3201 réponses à ce sujet

[DinkyD]

Alistair couldn't understand because he is a in game character? I.... don't even know how to respond to that. With that same logic, Howe wasn't evil, Bioware is for making him that way.

 

 

 

 

Alistair had no idea, but no one did, still doesn't excuse the fact he can just walk out. Reading your last couple of posts, you make it sound like the Warden's are the Dragon age version of the boy scouts. Alistair can join if he wanted to (which he can/did), he collects papers, and talks to a few nobles, stomps a few fires out here and there, and if he gets mad with another scout (Warden, character), then he can just leave.

 

And you say you can understand why Alistair is willingly allowing Ferelden to die. He does all of this for Duncan, what do you think Duncan would make of this? If I were to guess? I bet you Duncan would literally hunt him down, and kill him. My point is, is if Alistair believed this is what Duncan wanted, and that abandoning his oath to the Wardens was paying his respect, then he never listened, and never learned a damn thing.

 

 

 

Actually I ended up ruling with Anora, so actually I kind of liked her. But I played Origins quite a few times.... and I don't remember saying "If Ferelden dies, it is completely on her". But hey, we all make different assessments.

 

Perhaps I didn't make my first point clear. Characters can only make judgements on what they know, a player has a broader view. You seemed to be suggesting that there must be more to being a warden because of the way the story was playing out (the expectation of some dangerous climax for example ) - I meant you can't expect characters to know something's up merely because of plot conventions. (Like a fictional detective arresting the butler because "the butler always does it" ) I perhaps infered wrongly.

 

I don't understand why Alistair willingly allows Ferelden to die. That's your assessment of his actions and motivations, not mine. I don't have to defend him on that point because I don't think that is what Alistair believes he is doing. Alistair has no reason to believe he has any where near that much power. Does he actually say that he knows Ferelden will fall without him alone and he does not care?

 

Anora has far more power to save Ferelden at that point than the relatively powerless Alistair, but risks prolonging the war in an effort to hold on to power. If you think one soldier leaving condemns Ferelden it's Queen prolonging the war is far more culpable, in my view. But I cut Anora some slack, just as I do Alistair.

 

Yes, we all see the characters differently - I find it fascinating how different sometimes and love discussing it

[kimgoold]

Please tell me why someone hasn't named Anora as the likeliest suspect of poisoning Arl Eamon? she has the best motive, he was trying to get Cailan to put her aside. Her the True Ruler, kick her off Her Throne. She flip flops and back stabs with abandon and everyone looks at her father Please. Why do you think Howe locked her up in the first place?

 

1)And the first betrayal "ohh please save me from the big bad wardens kidnapping me?" It was so suspect, come in disguised totally out numbered (Howes estate) and I'll just kill you and Alistair as you try to escape with ambush I prearranged with father (Erlina). This also rather neatly gets rid of Howe.

 

 

 

2) They keep saying how canny a statesmans and politician Anora is, then oh no she had no idea her father planned to kill Cailan and other atrocities it just beggars belief. 

 

 

Oh sorry, to answer your original question I Always kill Loghain, only wish the same could apply to Anora.

[-TC1989-]

Perhaps I didn't make my first point clear. Characters can only make judgements on what they know, a player has a broader view. You seemed to be suggesting that there must be more to being a warden because of the way the story was playing out - you can't expect characters to have an understanding of narrative. I perhaps misread.

 

Lets assume this is a real life scenario. You are telling me Alistair had no reason to ever suspect, or wonder if there was more going on than he already knew? That is horribly naive. You drink the blood of a freaking monster, and chances are that you will die. You are telling me that there is no reason to think there might be some secret, or hidden agenda tied to that kind of ritual?

 

You also seem to be implying that Alistair thought the extent of being a Warden was having weird dreams, kill a couple monsters here and there, and an increase in appetite? And let's add the fact about the whole calling. With these stipulations, you would never wonder "what the hell is this all for?". Why are we dreaming of a demon dragon? Why is my life basically forfeit in 30 years? Why is the Joining so do or die? If you are suggesting that Alistair had no reason to suspect anything deeper to these questions.... then I give up.

 

 

I don't understand why Alistair willingly allows Ferelden to die. That's your assessment of his actions and motivations, not mine. I don't have to defend him on that point because I don't think that is what Alistair believes he is doing.

 

 

Well I can say the same thing. I believe that him being butt hurt over not getting his way about Duncan, adding to his grief from him dying initially, he no longer cared if Ferelden lived or died. The difference is I'm trying to make sense of it to you. That is what makes this a debate, but ultimately we both don't care what the other thinks, but that is why we come to this site, to discuss difference in opinion, or that is why I do.

 

When a soldier abandons his duty, no you don't think "well if it wasn't for him leaving, we would have won the war", it is the principle of it. You gave your word, and gave an oath to stand by us to the end. That person is held responsible for not doing his part to help the cause. That is usually punishable by death, or at least being sent to prison. If still choosing to leave is forgivable, and you actually support that then... I have nothing else to say on it.

 

 

Anora has far more power to save Ferelden at that point than the relatively powerless Alistair, but risks prolonging the war in an effort to hold on to power. If you think one soldier leaving condemns Ferelden it's Queen prolonging the war is far more culpable.

 

 

Or.... you can have another Cailan moment, and rush into battle unprepared. Not saying her intentions, or motivations were spot on all the time, but prolonging the war against the darkspawn was best at the moment. We had no united lands, we had a paranoid disgruntled soldier calling the shots, with a snake whispering in his ear. We had no common cause between the Elves, and everyone else.

[Monica21]

Please tell me why someone hasn't named Anora as the likeliest suspect of poisoning Arl Eamon? she has the best motive, he was trying to get Cailan to put her aside. Her the True Ruler, kick her off Her Throne. She flip flops and back stabs with abandon and everyone looks at her father Please. Why do you think Howe locked her up in the first place?

Because Berwick tells you Howe hired him to keep an eye on Eamon and Jowan tells you that Loghain hired him directly to poison him.

 

 

 

1)And the first betrayal "ohh please save me from the big bad wardens kidnapping me?" It was so suspect, come in disguised totally out numbered (Howes estate) and I'll just kill you and Alistair as you try to escape with ambush I prearranged with father (Erlina). This also rather neatly gets rid of Howe.

 

It's been awhile since I've played through this part, but Anora has to be disguised so that she's not recognized by Howe's men. Cauthrien shows up because you killed Howe, and then if you're dumb enough to announce that she's with you, after she's literally just told you not to, then yeah, she'll "betray" you. But only because you're dumb and betrayed her first. You can surrender to Cauthrien without identifying Anora.

 

[sylvanaerie]

Apparently Word Of Gaider is that Loghain had no idea it was going on, and signed off on a Tevinter presence because he bought the story about the plague. He finds out by the time of the Landsmeet, hence why he's not completely blindsided. (I usually accept Word Of Gaider, but this bit is too much. I would have accepted it if there was any evidence in game.)

 

Okay, this has to be the stupidest excuse for Loghain yet.  

 

Seriously, I never thought much of Loghain's intelligence before, but this "He didn't know" is just epic levels of stupid.  What fool believes Tevinters would 1) do anything out of the 'goodness of their hearts' 2) or actually PAY for the privilege of going into a dirty slum and 'expose themselves to a lethal plague'?  

 

Caladrius says he's heard much about the warden as it's all Loghain talks about.  He obviously had more than a couple conversations with the regent.  It's Loghain's name on the papers, not Howe.  Howe isn't mentioned.  Even once.

[DinkyD]

Lets assume this is a real life scenario. You are telling me Alistair had no reason to ever suspect, or wonder if there was more going on than he already knew? That is horribly naive. You drink the blood of a freaking monster, and chances are that you will die. You are telling me that there is no reason to think there might be some secret, or hidden agenda tied to that kind of ritual?

 

You also seem to be implying that Alistair thought the extent of being a Warden was having weird dreams, kill a couple monsters here and there, and an increase in appetite? And let's add the fact about the whole calling. With these stipulations, you would never wonder "what the hell is this all for?". Why are we dreaming of a demon dragon? Why is my life basically forfeit in 30 years? Why is the Joining so do or die? If you are suggesting that Alistair had no reason to suspect anything deeper to these questions.... then I give up.

 

 

 

 

Well I can say the same thing. I believe that him being butt hurt over not getting his way about Duncan, adding to his grief from him dying initially, he no longer cared if Ferelden lived or died. The difference is I'm trying to make sense of it to you. That is what makes this a debate, but ultimately we both don't care what the other thinks, but that is why we come to this site, to discuss difference in opinion, or that is why I do.

 

When a soldier abandons his duty, no you don't think "well if it wasn't for him leaving, we would have won the war", it is the principle of it. You gave your word, and gave an oath to stand by us to the end. That person is held responsible for not doing his part to help the cause. That is usually punishable by death, or at least being sent to prison. If still choosing to leave is forgivable, and you actually support that then... I have nothing else to say on it.

 

 

 

 

Or.... you can have another Cailan moment, and rush into battle unprepared. Not saying her intentions, or motivations were spot on all the time, but prolonging the war against the darkspawn was best at the moment. We had no united lands, we had a paranoid disgruntled soldier calling the shots, with a snake whispering in his ear. We had no common cause between the Elves, and everyone else.

 

 

I don't claim that Alistair had no reason to suspect, but I say again, you can't hold people to account for consequences they failed to forsee. That may make him guilty of being naive, but not guilty of the choice of dooming Ferelden.

 

Yes, if you want to execute Alistair on principle  - fine - but you were originally claiming that he knowingly left Ferelden to ruin. He may be guilty of desertion in your view but that is a different claim. You've moved from consequences "he dooms Ferelden" to a principle  "he breaks his oath"  - one is not equivalent to the other. Neither is one morally equivalent to the other. My contention is that Alistair's sin is minor compared to others, not that he is definately absolutely blameless. This is a loghain thread afterall.

[kimgoold]

Sorry to disagree but Berwick and Jowan say they were hired by men who worked for Howe and Loghain, this doesn't mean these people were not hirelings of Anora and told they were working for Howe and Loghain. She in my opinion would have married my Mabari if she thought it would keep her on the throne. At the landsmeet her father even expects her to arrive and backstab wardens (if ambush fails at Howe estate). he only reacts with shock if Anora backs wardens.

[-TC1989-]

I don't claim that Alistair had no reason to suspect, but I say again, you can't hold people to account for consequences they failed to forsee. That may make him guilty of being naive, but not guilty of the choice of dooming Ferelden.

 

 

You keep focusing specifically on this "dooming Ferelden". The flaws in Alistairs character spread over a few things, not just his tantrum over leaving Ferelden. I hold Alistair accountable for focusing his emotions on one person. I hold him accountable for leaving the cause that Duncan died for. I hold Alistair accountable for ruining his family name. He had to know that Wardens have a very specific reason for living, not just being simply better at killing darkspawn. Hell, I was thinking that literally five minutes after the Joining. Alistair has been with the Wardens for how long? 6 months? With Duncan guiding him? I'm not saying I'm smarter than Alistair, I'm saying Alistair could sometimes be pretty much an idiot.

 

 

Yes, if you want to execute Alistair on principle  - fine - but you were originally claiming that he knowingly left Ferelden to ruin. He may be guilty of desertion in your view but that is a different claim. You've moved from consequences "he dooms Ferelden" to a principle  "he breaks his oath"  - one is not equivalent to the other. Neither is one morally equivalent to the other.

 

 

You are taking me too literally. My overall point is that Alistair is ignoring his duties because he is upset over Duncan. He is choosing not to help in a war that could destroy Ferelden forever. I am claiming that Alistair is knowingly writing off the country that his father fought to bring back. That has been my meaning behind this whole "dooming Ferelden". Alistair should have had some kind of indication that three Wardens was a long shot at stopping a blight, that even if it was one more soldier, that our chances would be that much better. It's common sense. You can keep saying that he didn't know how vital they were, but he should have had some idea. Again, hell I had an idea that Wardens were at least something more than just a title. And I'm not going to get into this human mind vs games AI. That in itself is completely irrelevant. When I speak of these games, I always spin a real world view on it. I take these characters like I would in real life.

 

And as far as the moral impact either choice makes, in this case it's actually quite similar. Dooming Ferelden, or breaking your oath is seen as betrayal. People that will die that he could have prevented will be on his hands. That seems similar enough to me. You don't have to spin the whole "well, that is all speculation". Him simply being there could have saved x amount of lives that he was there to prevent. Whether he is deciding on anger, or grief, he is choosing to let those things happen with his decision to leave.

[Monica21]

Sorry to disagree but Berwick and Jowan say they were hired by men who worked for Howe and Loghain, this doesn't mean these people were not hirelings of Anora and told they were working for Howe and Loghain. She in my opinion would have married my Mabari if she thought it would keep her on the throne. At the landsmeet her father even expects her to arrive and backstab wardens (if ambush fails at Howe estate). he only reacts with shock if Anora backs wardens.

 

Disagreement is fine, but you're basing your assumptions on nothing. I'd suggest you replay those parts of the game and try to pay attention this time. It's blatantly obvious that Anora had nothing to do with Eamon's poisoning.

 

Concentrating iz hard.

[kimgoold]

Perhaps but hatred for all things Anora make that difficult. Also her father and she have no intention of losing power. If she's put aside Loghain loses tighter hold on Cailan. Neither has ego that will let that happen. She may have asked father to kill Eamon Hmmm, now your taking things to literally .

 

Anora has a history of going thru Cailans things, in DA2 mention with Fiona's weapon codex. Entirely possible she found correspondence between Cailan, Eamon and Celene and told father thus Cailan had to die.

[gottaloveme]

Cousland is a good choice to either marry or counsel Alistair or marry Anora because if you talk to Dairren he will tell young Pup that s/he is more likely to succeed to the teyrnir than Fergus. Got the training, got the education, got the blood, got the aptitude.

 

(with evil grin) Personally (and in these times in which we are a living) I would go for a trial and execution for Loghain. However, Alistair smacking Loghain's arse in single combat and taking off his head in the middle of the Landsmeet sends a powerful don't mess with me signal. No matter how much they may not like it, this be one object lesson the nobles had better not forget.

[Monica21]

Okay, this has to be the stupidest excuse for Loghain yet.  

 

Seriously, I never thought much of Loghain's intelligence before, but this "He didn't know" is just epic levels of stupid.  What fool believes Tevinters would 1) do anything out of the 'goodness of their hearts' 2) or actually PAY for the privilege of going into a dirty slum and 'expose themselves to a lethal plague'?  

 

Caladrius says he's heard much about the warden as it's all Loghain talks about.  He obviously had more than a couple conversations with the regent.  It's Loghain's name on the papers, not Howe.  Howe isn't mentioned.  Even once.

 

I quite honestly think that Gaider doesn't actually remember his own plot lines. I have not read that specific quote, but it's pretty clear that Loghain did know about the slavers.

[Monica21]

Perhaps but hatred for all things Anora make that difficult.

 

Then at least get your facts right. Anora is not to blame for everything just because you don't like her.

[kimgoold]

had to answer phone sorry, but just finished post with edit.

[DinkyD]

Okay, this has to be the stupidest excuse for Loghain yet.  

 

Seriously, I never thought much of Loghain's intelligence before, but this "He didn't know" is just epic levels of stupid.  What fool believes Tevinters would 1) do anything out of the 'goodness of their hearts' 2) or actually PAY for the privilege of going into a dirty slum and 'expose themselves to a lethal plague'?  

 

Caladrius says he's heard much about the warden as it's all Loghain talks about.  He obviously had more than a couple conversations with the regent.  It's Loghain's name on the papers, not Howe.  Howe isn't mentioned.  Even once.

 

I can't be the only one baffled by the numerous attempts to rehabilitate Loghain  - it actually makes him worse in some respects due to his passivity. Isn't he a far more interesting character when he actually does something?

 

 

....

 

And as far as the moral impact either choice makes, in this case it's actually quite similar. Dooming Ferelden, or breaking your oath is seen as betrayal. People that will die that he could have prevented will be on his hands. That seems similar enough to me. You don't have to spin the whole "well, that is all speculation". Him simply being there could have saved x amount of lives that he was there to prevent. Whether he is deciding on anger, or grief, he is choosing to let those things happen with his decision to leave.

 

I do see your point of view on that. But, given that, I would see all the characters implicated in that moral choice - they all have a moral obligation to stop the blight, to save those x amount of lives, oath or no. In the face of such destruction, everyone has an obligation; oaths become pretty irrelevant. Morrigan for example, leaves in anger before battle - she could make a huge difference alone. Worse, some characters actually attack and try to kill you (thinking Lelianna here - because of religious devotion)  thus really setting the cause back. Each person that joins the fight could save a life, or make the chances of victory more likely if you take that view. Alistair doesn't deserve to be singled out that harshly imo, he is not alone. It depends how serious you take a breaking of a promise on top of that I suppose - if you take a real world view that you refer to, I don't think it makes it much worse, as it pales in comparison to the goal.

[kimgoold]

In Ferelden Honor and Loyalty are the highest virtues, in one codex Empress Celene even comments that these barbarians place loyalty above all things. That and they'll go to war if you dis the dog.

[-TC1989-]

I do see your point of view on that. But, given that, I would see all the characters implicated in that moral choice - they all have a moral obligation to stop the blight, to save those x amount of lives, oath or no. In the face of such destruction, everyone has an obligation; oaths become pretty irrelevant. 

 

Oath's specifically regarding stopping darkspawn in this case is the exception. Moral obligations? Sure, we all do. But this discussion is between Alistair and Loghain. I single out Alistair because he is the son, and brother of the former King's of this country. If anyone has more obligation, it is him. Not because he has something to live up to, but that I would think he would put more upon himself to respect his bloodline.

 

 

Morrigan for example, leaves in anger before battle - she could make a huge difference alone. Worse, some characters actually attack and try to kill you (thinking Lelianna here - because of religious devotion)  thus really setting the cause back. Each person that joins the fight could save a life, or make the chances of victory more likely if you take that view.

 

 

Come on, Morrigan? You are going to use her as an example based on morals? Say Wynne, or Oghren, but not Morrigan. You think she cares one way or the other? Could she make a huge difference though? Absolutely, but not based on a moral obligation. I could almost hear her chuckling at that one.

 

As far as Leliana goes with religious devotion.... that is going to be left up strictly to opinion. Some people will say "to hell with religion", where as others would die defending it. I think this specifically sets itself apart from the blight. Logically speaking, I see your point, but we both know how some people handle their religious beliefs.

 

 

Alistair doesn't deserve to be singled out that harshly imo, he is not alone. It depends how serious you take a breaking of a promise on top of that I suppose - if you take a real world view that you refer to, I don't think it makes it much worse, as it pales in comparison to the goal.

 

 

All depends at what you look at. You look at the man that is scheduled to be King of your country, and then five minutes later is out the door saying "to hell with all of you", it does tend to sting the people of that nation a little more than say.... an Antivan Crow?

[DinkyD]

Oath's specifically regarding stopping darkspawn in this case is the exception. Moral obligations? Sure, we all do. But this discussion is between Alistair and Loghain. I single out Alistair because he is the son, and brother of the former King's of this country. If anyone has more obligation, it is him. Not because he has something to live up to, but that I would think he would put more upon himself to respect his bloodline.

 

 

 

 

Come on, Morrigan? You are going to use her as an example based on morals? Say Wynne, or Oghren, but not Morrigan. You think she cares one way or the other? Could she make a huge difference though? Absolutely, but not based on a moral obligation. I could almost hear her chuckling at that one.

 

As far as Leliana goes with religious devotion.... that is going to be left up strictly to opinion. Some people will say "to hell with religion", where as others would die defending it. I think this specifically sets itself apart from the blight. Logically speaking, I see your point, but we both know how some people handle their religious beliefs.

 

 

 

 

All depends at what you look at. You look at the man that is scheduled to be King of your country, and then five minutes later is out the door saying "to hell with all of you", it does tend to sting the people of that nation a little more than say.... an Antivan Crow?

 

Oh I'd never hold up Morrigan as a moral paragon! But I've never read a lot of people condemning her for leaving at such a cruical hour, probably because they accept she has a well - a different agenda and morality, so she gets a get out of "turning up at the last battle and doing your bit"card. So I was using her as an example as a character that judged differently, but favourably.

 

Fair enough to have higher expectations of Alistair - but the whole heir thing is kind of thrust upon him.

 

I have to wonder if any character absolutely does their duty in regards the blight. But I suppose that's for another thread.....

[-TC1989-]

Oh I'd never hold up Morrigan as a moral paragon! But I've never read a lot of people condemning her for leaving at such a cruical hour, probably because they accept she has a well - a different agenda and morality, so she gets a get out of "turning up at the last battle and doing your bit"card. So I was using her as an example as a character that judged differently, but favourably.

 

No, I see what your saying. But Morrigan is... Morrigan. You go trying to compare her to other companions with anything to do with team work, or obligation.... it just doesn't work that way in her case, and yes specifically her case.

 

Fair enough to have higher expectations of Alistair - but the whole heir thing is kind of thrust upon him.

 

True, but it is what it is. Being born into that life isn't asked for, but sadly that is the reality in his case.

 

I have to wonder if any character absolutely does their duty in regards the blight. But I suppose that's for another thread.....

 

Aside from the Warden, it is a bit of a hit and miss. Though also for some reason, I always felt like I could trust Sten. Maybe it was just me, but I always felt like he was never going anywhere. Well, I say this after he tried to take control, yeah I'm rambling...

[DinkyD]

No, I see what your saying. But Morrigan is... Morrigan. You go trying to compare her to other companions with anything to do with team work, or obligation.... it just doesn't work that way in her case, and yes specifically her case.

 

 

 

 

True, but it is what it is. Being born into that life isn't asked for, but sadly that is the reality in his case.

 

 

 

 

Aside from the Warden, it is a bit of a hit and miss. Though also for some reason, I always felt like I could trust Sten. Maybe it was just me, but I always felt like he was never going anywhere. Well, I say this after he tried to take control, yeah I'm rambling...

 

 

Morrigan isn't so unique in some specific way that she's immune to every moral obligation. To grant her such leeway, than you have to grant others I feel.

 

Alistair isn't prepared for what you expect of him - those responsible for his upbringing must share responsibility for that.

 

Sten  - he's focused! But yes, it's all hit and miss. Really, you could say that even Duncan isn't recruiting as he should if he believes it's really a blight.

[kimgoold]

My question to you, who does Alistair feel the biggest loyalty/obligation too? The man who threw him away like a kleenex or the man he feels saved him from the chantry. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

My question to you, who does Alistair feel the biggest loyalty/obligation too? The man who threw him away like a kleenex or the man he feels saved him from the chantry. 

Apparently it's not the thousands of innocent people he's supposed to be protecting.

[kimgoold]

In that day and age most nobility or royalty didn't look at it that way, they were much more self absorbed. So like a spoilt child he chucks a hissy fit and leaves, but once he cooled/calmed down he would have come back to do the right thing because thats the type of character he is. The cold blooded almost psychological approach of Anora and Loghain were more worrying. They saw nothing wrong with selling some Fereldens to save the Human populace and that just sucks.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

In that day and age most nobility or royalty didn't look at it that way, they were much more self absorbed. So like a spoilt child he chucks a hissy fit and leaves, but once he cooled/calmed down he would have come back to do the right thing because thats the type of character he is. The cold blooded almost psychological approach of Anora and Loghain were more worrying. They saw nothing wrong with selling some Fereldens to save the Human populace and that just sucks.

What evidence do you have that Anora was in on this? I'm not saying she wasn't, just that to the best of my knowledge there's no reason to believe she was.

[WarriorOfLight999]

@River: It would seem so.

 

However, there is this: I find the choice to be a forced dichotomy. There's evidence to suggest the developers had a chance to keep both Alistair and Loghain in your party. They took it out.

 

Besides, I find it out of character that Alistair would simply leave. Another part of the false dichotomy that is forced on the player to choose. For all his faults, Alistair takes his Grey Warden duties seriously, and wants to slay the Archdemon and end the Blight.

 

Just food for thought.