3201 réponses à ce sujet

[-TC1989-]

Morrigan isn't so unique in some specific way that she's immune to every moral obligation. To grant her such leeway, than you have to grant others I feel.

 

She gets pretty damn close. And it's not about granting her leeway, it's what it is. If someone doesn't care, then they simply don't care. You can appeal to her guilt, but I would assure you it won't work. I mean she is raised by a demon, think about that. I think if you try to say "But... but Morrigan doesn't care, why should Alistair?". Maybe because Alistair is a normal person, and experiences the same emotions as other people? It's not about making excuses for people like Morrigan, it is who they are. Do you think people like Leliana, or Alistair, or Wynne would want that same outlook anyway? I can almost promise you, the only reason Morrigan is helping, is because its either live among humans, or live in a place with darkspawn roaming everywhere.

 

Alistair isn't prepared for what you expect of him - those responsible for his upbringing must share responsibility for that.

 

Prepared or not, his life is born into royalty. You don't, and can't ask for that. You know in every story with Kings, and heirs that there is a certain expectation. There has to be. People need to believe that the family line will continue to be honorable, and uphold the role as King, or Queen. You could say it isn't fair to Alistair, but that is the pressure that every heir faces.

 

Sten  - he's focused! But yes, it's all hit and miss. Really, you could say that even Duncan isn't recruiting as he should if he believes it's really a blight.

 

To be honest, I don't know what to expect from Duncan. I know he is doing what he can, but he isn't getting any help really either. Wasn't the only reason we ever saw Riordan, was because he was looking into Duncans disappearance?

[kimgoold]

@ River

 

Apologies I'm not that computer savvy so in reply see posts on 82 its alot to rewrite

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

@ River

 

Apologies I'm not that computer savvy so in reply see posts on 82 its alot to rewrite

I don't see much that would apply to this particular accusation. The one thing I saw was an argument that if she was really as bright as we're hit over the head with she'd have known about the slavery, and I think she did. You're stating that she had approved of it, though, which is not the same thing.

[kimgoold]

@River

 

I think that collusion is the same as approval in this case. Either she is as bright as they imply and as ruthless as her father or she is to oblivious to have seen what was happening. I think she was bright enough and just didn't care as long as she held throne. And that would make her an accomplace. 

[Lady Artifice]

Alistair spent his childhood sleeping with the Dogs, TC. No argument with anything else you're saying, but it's not like he was ever prepared in any sense for any possibility of needing to lead anyone anywhere, let alone needing to think as an heir to anything.

[WarriorOfLight999]

Indeed. There is so much blame to pass around on the predicament of Ferelden in 9:31.

 

I hold Eamon and Isolde accountable, for their callous treatment of a son of Maric, for jeopardizing a village in order to shield her child from responsibility, for attempting to start a civil war by having Cailan marry Celene, and for trying to make a grab at power by putting Alistair on the throne, who was not even remotely ready.

 

I hold Maric responsible for not keeping it in his pants, and for not actually doing well by Alistair. Maker's Breath, he should have given him over to Loghain, or the Couslands.

 

I hold Rendon responsible because....well, yeah.

 

I hold Cailan responsible for his stupidity, his bravado, his doomed ambition with Celene, and for sacrificing half of his men to satisfy his vanity.

 

I hold Anora responsible for not reigning in her Father, and not taking command of the situation.

 

I hold Loghain responsible for many things that I have already stated, Ostagar not one of them, however.

 

I hold the nobles of Ferelden responsible for squabbling over a succession when a Blight threatens to corrupt their women into broodmothers, destroy their lands, and eat their faces. Fools!

 

I hold Alistair accountable if he leaves Ferelden. Otherwise, I cannot blame him for his faults.

 

Lastly, I hold every Warden outside of Thedas responsible, for not leaving IMMEDIATELY when news of the Blight spread from the south. It's their damned job to fight the darkspawn. They are useless otherwise. I don't want to hear any crap about Loghain keeping them out: he can't keep them ALL out.

[kimgoold]

@warrior of light

 

just beautifully put

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

@River

 

I think that collusion is the same as approval in this case. Either she is as bright as they imply and as ruthless as her father or she is to oblivious to have seen what was happening. I think she was bright enough and just didn't care as long as she held throne. And that would make her an accomplace. 

I don't think she colluded in it, either. I think she knew at least that something bad was going on in the Alienage (I think I'm being captain obvious here considering she's the one who tips you off), and possibly she even knew (or guessed) what she was sending the Warden in to find. That's not the same as approving of or helping plan the slaving ring, though, and ultimately she did end up helping cause its destruction. You can argue that she should have done something earlier, and you might even be right too, but the point where she's not able to directly order around Denerim soldiers still applies here and she'd already signed over the crown soldiers to Loghain (to the extent that she really controlled them at all given that he's had authority over Ferelden's army longer than she has.)

[kimgoold]

@ River 

 

I get where your coming from but, she could have done that as a pre-emptive strike; she knew you would find out and so instead sends you in with Her vague suspicions that something is wrong. A good way to say hey I'm innocent, I told You all about it first. 

 

Double bluff anyone or is my paranoia flaring up.

[-TC1989-]

Alistair spent his childhood sleeping with the Dogs, TC. No argument with anything else you're saying, but it's not like he was ever prepared in any sense for any possibility of needing to lead anyone anywhere, let alone needing to think as an heir to anything.

 

I'm not saying that Alistair had the perfect tools to make a perfect King in waiting. This topic is getting away from what I was trying to say. I am not focusing on Alistair's life specifically, I mention him by name in my point just as an example. If it came off as me going after Alistair, then I apologize.

 

My point was, is that when you look at the role of Kings, and heirs... people don't care. People want a leader to know what to do. Whether its fair to that heir to have the right upbringing, or whatever is irrelevant. The pressure, and expectations come from the moment they are born. Even with bastard children... the expectations, and that chance are still in the air. However unlikely, it isn't impossible.

 

By the way... I agree with you, Alistair didn't have any guidance growing up. But if he found himself in line to take the throne (which sure enough, he did), and people heard that King Maric had another son, they will expect him to know how to handle the pressure. Now yes, some people would understand the circumstances, and would be patient with him. But if you have an entire country watching you take the crown? You better believe a good portion are going to be expecting immediate action from you. It isn't a bash on Alistair, it's simply politics.

[kimgoold]

Is it unreasonable to assume that Anora is as culpable as Loghain ? both are ruthless, intelligent, egotistical and utterly self righteous.

 

1) Anora endlessly goes on about her superiority due to her birth and her fathers accomplishments yet denies any positive traits to Alistair via his father King Maric

 

2) Loghain is touted as a great tactician and general and Anora is alleged to be a cunning statesman, so why would anyone assume she was incapable of intricate plots to further her own ends.

 

3) It has been said that Cailan may have been sterile, what proof do we have of this? is it beyond belief that Loghain or Anora would dispose of a possible rival mistress if she fell pregnant? In the five years of marriage how many mistresses did Cailan have.

 

Others who were a threat were gotten out of way or killed outright, the Couslands because as the second most prominent family they had a better claim to throne than widow. Arl Eamon because he implored Cailan to put barren wife aside. Arl Urien perhaps he too had a better claim to throne than Anora. It has been said in Lore that most noble families had blood ties to the Theirin line.

 

4) And Arl Howe was neatly killed off in Rescue (Please) which nicely left him as the bad guy, it was all his fault! And stops him from trying to annex any more nobles estates

[Andreas Amell]

@WarriorofLight999

 

 

You should join the Qunari.

 

Anyway, I still favor killing Loghain simply because of my loyalty to the people I've fought with since Ostagar. It's that simple for me. Riordan himself said that Grey Wardens should be loyal to each other. Loghain doesn't fit the bill.

[DinkyD]

@River: It would seem so.

 

However, there is this: I find the choice to be a forced dichotomy. There's evidence to suggest the developers had a chance to keep both Alistair and Loghain in your party. They took it out.

 

Besides, I find it out of character that Alistair would simply leave. Another part of the false dichotomy that is forced on the player to choose. For all his faults, Alistair takes his Grey Warden duties seriously, and wants to slay the Archdemon and end the Blight.

 

Just food for thought.

 

 

He does take the Grey Warden duty seriously - totally agree - it's unfair to suggest he doesn't. He takes other things seriously too - that's what undos him in this scenario.

 

The way I see it it's not about "hurt feelings" but a titanic internal clash of values. Alistair's value "justice" comes into direct conflict with his value of "serve the warden's cause". They prove irreconcilable and Alistair reaches his crisis point and sadly, he can't serve two masters and something has to give. The force and significance of this conflict is evidenced by the fact he starts to self-destruct soon after. That's why I find it tragic more than anything. Ultimately, Alistair only destroys himself.

 

I think Alistair attracts such flak as he does, because he sticks out like the proverbial sore thumb in a world where values are fungible and nearly everyone's a pragmatist.

[Monica21]

Morrigan isn't so unique in some specific way that she's immune to every moral obligation. To grant her such leeway, than you have to grant others I feel.

 

 

Except that Morrigan really doesn't have any obligation beyond herself and she makes it clear to you the moment you meet her. All of your companions are thrust upon you in some way, but Morrigan's mother just says, "Hey, you're going with them." I don't think she has a single line of dialogue that states anything about wanting to end the Blight. To assign some kind of Blight-fighting responsibility to Morrigan is beyond what her character has ever implied that she felt. She goes along with the Warden because of the Old God Baby, and that's it.

 

 

He does take the Grey Warden duty seriously - totally agree - it's unfair to suggest he doesn't. He takes other things seriously too - that's what undos him in this scenario.

 

The way I see it it's not about "hurt feelings" but a titanic internal clash of values. Alistair's value "justice" comes into direct conflict with his value of "serve the warden's cause". They prove irreconcilable and Alistair reaches his crisis point and sadly, he can't serve two masters and something has to give. The force and significance of this conflict is evidenced by the fact he starts to self-destruct soon after. That's why I find it tragic more than anything. Ultimately, Alistair only destroys himself.

 

I think Alistair attracts such flak as he does, because he sticks out like the proverbial sore thumb in a world where values are fungible and nearly everyone's a pragmatist.

 

And this is where I think that Alistair leaving is completely in character. And to kimgoold, who thinks that Alistair will "come around" after his hissy fit. He doesn't, so no he won't. He will rule Ferelden if you put him on the throne, but under no circumstances will he ever return to your party if you spare Loghain.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Is it unreasonable to assume that Anora is as culpable as Loghain ? both are ruthless, intelligent, egotistical and utterly self righteous.

 

1) Anora endlessly goes on about her superiority due to her birth and her fathers accomplishments yet denies any positive traits to Alistair via his father King Maric

 

2) Loghain is touted as a great tactician and general and Anora is alleged to be a cunning statesman, so why would anyone assume she was incapable of intricate plots to further her own ends.

 

3) It has been said that Cailan may have been sterile, what proof do we have of this? is it beyond belief that Loghain or Anora would dispose of a possible rival mistress if she fell pregnant? In the five years of marriage how many mistresses did Cailan have.

 

Others who were a threat were gotten out of way or killed outright, the Couslands because as the second most prominent family they had a better claim to throne than widow. Arl Eamon because he implored Cailan to put barren wife aside. Arl Urien perhaps he too had a better claim to throne than Anora. It has been said in Lore that most noble families had blood ties to the Theirin line.

 

4) And Arl Howe was neatly killed off in Rescue (Please) which nicely left him as the bad guy, it was all his fault! And stops him from trying to annex any more nobles estates

You've gone full conspiracy theorist. This is all possible, yes, but if you're asking whether it's "unreasonable to assume" it I'm going to have to answer yes. If you had any actual evidence that Anora went this far, it'd be different, but as far as I can tell you really don't.

[Bardox9]

When we first meet Alistair, his a tool. For most of the game that is all he really is. Hardening him helps slightly, but he's still just an ass to put on the throne IF you want him there. Considering you are new to the Wardens and have no personal connection to anyone who dies at Ostagar, with the exception of maybe Duncan, it's pretty easy (for me anyway) to put Loghain through the Joinng. "Let the Maker/Gods/Ancestors decide his fate." In an odd way, I actually prefer Loghain to Alistair. I usually travel with Sten anyway.

 

Without condoning Loghain's actions, I can understand them.

[Kenshen]

 

 

I hold Anora responsible for not reigning in her Father, and not taking command of the situation.

 

 

So how do you expect her to do this?  She admits to fearing her father and what is blind obsession of anything Orlesian is capable of even against his own daughter.  She only felt safe to speak out against him once rescued from Howe.  

[Lady Artifice]

Hmm. She felt POLITICALLY safe.

Anora was NEVER in danger when it comes to Loghain. Howe, certainly, but not her father.

That woman has never spent a moment of her life not calculating her next move. She is NO victim.

[WarriorOfLight999]

@Kenshen

 

Well, there are several options available to her. Her husband is dead, and the darkspawn are prowling about the land. If she were smart, she'd remarry immediately to seal her place on the throne. Infact, if I were her, I'd have kept my eyes on suitable bachelors in other countries, like Nevarra. A strong alliance would gain her troops, Wardens, and gold. That's resources she can use against her Father.

 

Also, I'd certainly not allow him to declare himself Regent. I'd have taken the bull by the horns at that Landsmeet, and tried to negotiate a bit with some of the nobles there. Killing Howe would affirm the loyalty of Highever banns and knights. Sending direct aid to the south would also give me the loyalty of Wulffe and Bryland. Loghain would have the support of the army and his hardliners, but Anora would still be a powerful contender to stop him, and whats better, she actually has Wardens to stop the Blight.

[kimgoold]

@ River

 

I agree I may have gone little to far but I just don't trust that character in the game. She showed far more emotion when her father died than her husband and that just creeped me out. As for proof my only solid lead is a codex from DA2 Fiona's weapon, as Anora has no problems going thru Cailans things it seems reasonable she could have found the correspondence of Eamon and Empress Celene, both implying she was being put aside and she ran to her father to stop this thus whatever actions he took she instigated.

 

But I will allow my dislike of Anora and her father could be influencing my opinion.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

@ River

 

I agree I may have gone little to far but I just don't trust that character in the game. She showed far more emotion when her father died than her husband and that just creeped me out. As for proof my only solid lead is a codex from DA2 Fiona's weapon, as Anora has no problems going thru Cailans things it seems reasonable she could have found the correspondence of Eamon and Empress Celene, both implying she was being put aside and she ran to her father to stop this thus whatever actions he took she instigated.

 

But I will allow my dislike of Anora and her father could be influencing my opinion.

Again, this is for the most part entirely possible. Some of it I think might even be true. And there's definite reason to believe that she's not being entirely honest with the PC in her statements that's she's truly afraid of her father. It's just that I'm inclined to assume that the rest of this is not true in the absence of evidence that it is. These are extraordinary claims, so I'm not inclined to believe them without correspondingly extraordinary proof.

 

Also, under the heading of evidence against these claims: Anora does not seem to have wanted Cailan dead, and really there's a good argument that Loghain didn't either. We even see Anora confront Loghain with the idea that Loghain might have killed Cailan, which seems to me to be evidence against her colluding with Loghain to do it. It might have been that she unknowingly motivated Loghain by showing him the evidence he was planning to set Anora aside, except that in RtO Loghain seems to have been caught entirely flatfooted by that same evidence. So this one I don't think there's anything to.

[kimgoold]

@River

 

I think it was a last minute decision to kill Cailan, Loghain kept trying to yell him down and convince him not to stand with the wardens whom he did plan to kill because he didn't want to share the lime light. Only Loghain could save everyone from the Blight? when its been the Grey Wardens sole reason for existing. He felt his control over Cailan slipping and so took action.

[Monica21]

@River

 

I think it was a last minute decision to kill Cailan, Loghain kept trying to yell him down and convince him not to stand with the wardens whom he did plan to kill because he didn't want to share the lime light. Only Loghain could save everyone from the Blight? when its been the Grey Wardens sole reason for existing. He felt his control over Cailan slipping and so took action.

 

First, Loghain didn't believe it was a Blight. Not many people did. Cailan didn't believe it was a Blight. Second, it had been 400 years since the last Blight. The only people who really had much of an idea of the Wardens importance are scholars like Genitivi and the Wardens themselves. You only know that that the Wardens have ended Blights. Not why.

[sylvanaerie]

Seems to me both Loghain and Anora don't realize the other's limits.  

Loghain will tell the warden there's nothing she wouldn't do for the throne, but since she will oppose the man who tells her, "Ya, I'll support you, but your dad has to die" or refuse to marry the man who kills her father, she quite clearly does have a line she won't cross, even for the sake of the throne.

 

She insists her father may well have her killed for defying him and allying with the warden, but Loghain will say she was never in any danger of that from him.  Certainly, if he felt he could get away with it, Howe would have, but I don't believe Loghain would have.  I think his motivations for taking the throne when he did stemmed not just in part from a desire to save Ferelden, but to protect his daughter as well.

 

Perceptions being what they are, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume their relationship was dysfunctional enough that each could see the other doing such despicable things to one another to accomplish their goals.  Even if they were both wrong in their assessment of the other.  I think Loghain and Anora loved each other, but weren't really so close they were comfortable with each other.  I get the feeling he spent most of her childhood in Denerim, busy with Maric and Cailan.

 

Which is why my King Cousland had Alistair kill him.  He didn't want Loghain around to screw up his relationship with his queen.

[gottaloveme]

I agree with ArtsofArtifice - Anora aint no victim.

 

In my headcanon I believe that she has a lot of strings tied to her fingers and is pulling on them, playing people off against each other and covering her elegant arse. Much as I didn't like him, Loghain had something of the idealist in his psych makeup. Anora is more akin to Howe - coldly ambitious. I won't say she didn't love Cailan but I feel she loved herself and her father more.

 

But then Alistair said it best - that neither of them would ever see that anyone except themselves, would do right by Ferelden (or somthing like that).

 

Anora? Queen? Never!