Haven't finished my playthrough as a City Elf yet, so I will take your word on it, but I read your comment again and my point still stands: Loghain brought Howe along to a meeting with Eamon, Alistair and Cousland.
Loghain only sometimes opening old wounds isn't what I would necessarily define as not being insensitive.
Haven't finished my playthrough as a City Elf yet, so I will take your word on it, but I read your comment again and my point still stands: Loghain brought Howe along to a meeting with Eamon, Alistair and Cousland.
Loghain only sometimes opening old wounds isn't what I would necessarily define as not being insensitive.
River was being tongue-in-cheek. What he was pointing out was that Loghain wasn't exactly thinking of peoples' feelings when he brings the one person who instigates the Alienage Purge to a meeting with a City Elf.
That person? The same one who committed a massacre of a high-ranking noble family all on his own. Howe.
Ahh. I see. My apologies then. Yes...bringing Howe in front of the City Elf.....yeah. Not a wise move. Loghain makes for a terrible politician, really. A good soldier, but lousy at gaining trust or making good allies.
Ahh. I see. My apologies then. Yes...bringing Howe in front of the City Elf.....yeah. Not a wise move. Loghain makes for a terrible politician, really. A good soldier, but lousy at gaining trust or making good allies.
Most people couldn't screw up diplomacy as badly as that without trying until their eyes bled.
Guest_Faerunner_*
Ahh. I see. My apologies then. Yes...bringing Howe in front of the City Elf.....yeah. Not a wise move. Loghain makes for a terrible politician, really. A good soldier, but lousy at gaining trust or making good allies.
He doesn't seem to care that much about elven feelings or slavery in general.
If a CE Warden confronts Loghain about slave-trading at the Landsmeet, he plays the "I did what I had to do to make money" card. What's worse, he argues that "Everything I have done has been for the good of Ferelden," conveniently ignoring that the elves are Ferelden citizens too. What's more, he goes a step further and gets angry at you for stopping the slave-trading because it's no longer putting money in his chauffeurs (used to fund his civil war to maintain his regency, mind). And if that same Elven Warden spares him, takes him back to camp, and confront him about slave-trading, he flat out says: "Of all the things I've done, do you think the plight of a few dozen elves is what keeps me up at night? It's a bit egotistical, don't you think?"
Yes, the guy who throws a raging temper tantrum over the Landsmeet not taking his plight under the Orlesians seriously ("NONE OF YOU HAVE SUFFERED FOR THIS COUNTRY AS I HAVE! WHICH OF YOU STOOD AGAINST THE EMPEROR WHEN HIS TROOPS FLATTENED YOUR FIELDS AND RAPED YOUR WIVES??!!) is seriously calling a City Elf "egotistical" for not just getting over him selling their family and community into slavery.
God, I hate this guy.
EDIT: Oh yeah, so, the fact that he brings the guy that's been butchering the alienage to meet the City Elven Warden when he goes to try to convince you to stand down / submit to him doesn't surprise me a bit.
Just got off vacation and I just finished reading all these pages to catch up.
So we're discussing Anora and Loghain now? Okay, I think I've made my arguments for Loghain clear earlier in this thread, so I'll discuss Anora now.
To start off with, I actually think Anora has something of a father complex, and uses Loghain's achievements as the standard to hold up everyone else I also think she's her father's daughter, in that she thinks she's the only one capable of handling Ferelden's problems. I also do not hold her completely accountable for everything not related to Loghain or Howe, such as the state of Denerim or not having a stronger unifying voice in the Civil War because of the nature of Ferelden politics and the fact that I hold each of the nobles who decided to fight Loghain instead of the darkspawn equally guilty as Loghain and traitors to the crown and their queen.
But, she is also not a victim in any way, shape or form. As Loghain says, she could have been a bard. I also think she's not entirely honest with us. I mean, everything Erlina tells us about is clearly scripted. And Anora has the most to gain there. She potentially removes Howe or/and the Warden. One is a scumbag, and the other is the biggest threat to her losing the throne. One, possibly two of her biggest headaches could be killed. And once rescued from Howe, is in position to try and influence the Warden, which she does, to try and keep her throne. Also, she promises while in the room with the barrier to support the warden in the Landsmeet if freed, but the moment she is freed she conveniently forgets that promise and tries to make a deal with you, and will only support your claims in the Landsmeet if you agree to her terms, she retains her crown and her father lives.
I don't think she's as effective an administrator or ruler as she thinks she is because she allowed Loghain, Howe, and the civil war itself, to go on for so long with nary a sign from the queen to end the fighting and unify the nobles. It somehow takes Eamon to call the Landsmeet, she could have done that easily and much sooner, gathered all the bannorn together and locked them in the room and say "we have darkspawn on our doorstep, let's stop killing each other until they're dealt with." She tries to reason with her father on that line, and all he saw was Orlesian threats and didn't hear her, but it's never shown that she makes the same attempts with anyone else. Heck, even Howe was pointing it out to Loghain that they may not have the manpower to deal with the darkspawn once the civil war was over.
Heck, Ferelden still didn't have the manpower after the Landsmeet, even with the treaties, the army we built was outnumbered three to one, we simply got lucky and was able to kill the archdemon quickly.
But she is very popular and has the strongest voice in the country at the Landsmeet, and the only way the Warden can win in the Landsmeet if she opposes him/her is to do the side quests, do favors for the nobles, and know what to say, like bringing up the Blight instead of Ostagar is the only way to get Arl Wulf's aid.
I'd probably like her a lot more if there were more scenes, or even dialogue from the gossipers about Anora trying to restore the peace and the nobles too busy fighting each other to hear her. Instead all I have is silence and the impression of an absent queen during its greatest crises.
Just got off vacation and I just finished reading all these pages to catch up.
So we're discussing Anora and Loghain now? Okay, I think I've made my arguments for Loghain clear earlier in this thread, so I'll discuss Anora now.
To start off with, I actually think Anora has something of a father complex, and uses Loghain's achievements as the standard to hold up everyone else I also think she's her father's daughter, in that she thinks she's the only one capable of handling Ferelden's problems. I also do not hold her completely accountable for everything not related to Loghain or Howe, such as the state of Denerim or not having a stronger unifying voice in the Civil War because of the nature of Ferelden politics and the fact that I hold each of the nobles who decided to fight Loghain instead of the darkspawn equally guilty as Loghain and traitors to the crown and their queen.
But, she is also not a victim in any way, shape or form. As Loghain says, she could have been a bard. I also think she's not entirely honest with us. I mean, everything Erlina tells us about is clearly scripted. And Anora has the most to gain there. She potentially removes Howe or/and the Warden. One is a scumbag, and the other is the biggest threat to her losing the throne. One, possibly two of her biggest headaches could be killed. And once rescued from Howe, is in position to try and influence the Warden, which she does, to try and keep her throne. Also, she promises while in the room with the barrier to support the warden in the Landsmeet if freed, but the moment she is freed she conveniently forgets that promise and tries to make a deal with you, and will only support your claims in the Landsmeet if you agree to her terms, she retains her crown and her father lives.
I don't think she's as effective an administrator or ruler as she thinks she is because she allowed Loghain, Howe, and the civil war itself, to go on for so long with nary a sign from the queen to end the fighting and unify the nobles. It somehow takes Eamon to call the Landsmeet, she could have done that easily and much sooner, gathered all the bannorn together and locked them in the room and say "we have darkspawn on our doorstep, let's stop killing each other until they're dealt with." She tries to reason with her father on that line, and all he saw was Orlesian threats and didn't hear her, but it's never shown that she makes the same attempts with anyone else. Heck, even Howe was pointing it out to Loghain that they may not have the manpower to deal with the darkspawn once the civil war was over.
Heck, Ferelden still didn't have the manpower after the Landsmeet, even with the treaties, the army we built was outnumbered three to one, we simply got lucky and was able to kill the archdemon quickly.
But she is very popular and has the strongest voice in the country at the Landsmeet, and the only way the Warden can win in the Landsmeet if she opposes him/her is to do the side quests, do favors for the nobles, and know what to say, like bringing up the Blight instead of Ostagar is the only way to get Arl Wulf's aid.
I'd probably like her a lot more if there were more scenes, or even dialogue from the gossipers about Anora trying to restore the peace and the nobles too busy fighting each other to hear her. Instead all I have is silence and the impression of an absent queen during its greatest crises.
Well said. I think she's specifically written to be competent politically...A lot more competent than her father (my opinion), however, just like her father she underestimates the importance of the Wardens (forgivable) and places her own chances of leading before the good of Ferelden and all of Thedas (less forgivable) because like Loghain, she thinks she is the good of Ferelden.
Frustrating character.
On a very meta note, I just wish she had a little more personal magnetism. Chessmaster characters can be fascinating if they're also compelling, and there's seems to be differences between the writers on whether she is. For example, Eamon claims she always knew how to bat her big blue eyes to get what she wants, and there's that Loghain "she could have been a Bard" comment (I didn't know about that until that post on this thread). However, we don't really get much a glimpse into that quality, and her wiki page has a quote about using feminine wiles being a thing that would never occur to her because she's too much like her father.
I mean, don't some things just not seem to quite line up?
I guess it might be supposed to be that way. Maybe my confusion is her success. 
Being raised in proximity doesn't necessarily equal lots of time with. I think Loghain loved his family but Maric and his duties to Ferelden kept him busy.
Cat's in the cradle and all that...
You know . . . when I first read this it took several days for that song to get out of my head. 
I don't think she's as effective an administrator or ruler as she thinks she is because she allowed Loghain, Howe, and the civil war itself, to go on for so long with nary a sign from the queen to end the fighting and unify the nobles. It somehow takes Eamon to call the Landsmeet, she could have done that easily and much sooner, gathered all the bannorn together and locked them in the room and say "we have darkspawn on our doorstep, let's stop killing each other until they're dealt with."
So basically, what Loghain was doing when Teagan told him the Bannorn wouldn't stand for it and stormed out, essentially starting the civil war? I mean, you can blame Loghain all you want, but Teagan wasn't at Ostagar, heard a bunch of rumors, said that the timing of Loghain's retreat was "suspicious" and then ignores the darkspawn to fight Loghain.
So basically, what Loghain was doing when Teagan told him the Bannorn wouldn't stand for it and stormed out, essentially starting the civil war? I mean, you can blame Loghain all you want, but Teagan wasn't at Ostagar, heard a bunch of rumors, said that the timing of Loghain's retreat was "suspicious" and then ignores the darkspawn to fight Loghain.
I will note as a point in Loghain's favor that he tried that, and as a point in Anora's favor that she tried to pick up the ball when Loghain dropped it big time. That said, Loghain really screwed up trying this.
I don't think she's as effective an administrator or ruler as she thinks she is because she allowed Loghain, Howe, and the civil war itself, to go on for so long with nary a sign from the queen to end the fighting and unify the nobles. It somehow takes Eamon to call the Landsmeet, she could have done that easily and much sooner, gathered all the bannorn together and locked them in the room and say "we have darkspawn on our doorstep, let's stop killing each other until they're dealt with." She tries to reason with her father on that line, and all he saw was Orlesian threats and didn't hear her, but it's never shown that she makes the same attempts with anyone else. Heck, even Howe was pointing it out to Loghain that they may not have the manpower to deal with the darkspawn once the civil war was over.
Anora was doing damage control. She couldn't call a Landsmeet to settle the issue because that would seem like she's going against her father, whom at this point she needs to side with politically because he has the greater advantage (more forces, more experience, better sense of unity then the Bannorn). It would've been unwise. If she had spoken openly against Loghain, it would've inflamed the Bannorn and made them feel like they should go against Loghain.
She only had three options really, 1) Side with Loghain and do damage control, 2) alienate her from her father (who is the one the soldiers are more likely to follow then her, or 3) leave Denerim to go find the Bannorn (who may not follow her and even if they did chances of success are slim. She chose 1, which was the best option, as you hear often of how she's pleading with the Bannorn to stop fighting against Loghain, especially after some of the more catastrophic losses on the part of the Bannorn forces.
But they choose not to listen, feeling that what Anora is saying is really what Loghain is saying.
Also what Monica said. Loghain called a Landsmeet and said they should face the Darkspawn, only for Teagan to royally **** things up. And then Loghain cocked them up some more in his retorts.
@Dragonflight
Well said, overall.
@Faerunner
Also well said. I can see little reason for a city elf to spare Loghain. To be honest, I don't think ANYONE in Ferelden considers elves, mages, or dwarves to be Ferelden citizens. I don't think the Night Elves that served under Loghain in Stolen Throne really got anything. Perhaps some gold, some land, and shooed off, out of sight? If they were lucky, perhaps.
Loghain, to do him justice, does not seem the blatant sort of racist like Vaughan or Howe turn out to be, but there's hints of it, with his derision of Maric's infatuation with the bard Katriel. His ego is rather astounding, I agree. Someone who was pushed into hard circumstances, who always thought himself the only one who could save Ferelden, and make the hard choices no one else could make.
A 'hard choice' like the Alienage.
Of course, if he, Anora, and Cailan made allies with nations like Nevarra instead of Orlais or Tevinter, that choice might not have been necessary. A pointless, abominable crime that none but the survivors in the Alienage will care about.
Of course, if he, Anora, and Cailan made allies with nations like Nevarra instead of Orlais or Tevinter, that choice might not have been necessary. A pointless, abominable crime that none but the survivors in the Alienage will care about.
Loghain is stated to have had a foreign ally in the Free Marches, if that alters your perception of the necessity of his acts.
And he was seeking the aid of Orzammar and the Circle
The overwhelming hatred of 'dog lords', murderous resistance against aiding Denerim (think of Lord Harimann), and absence of any Free Marchers in the battle for Denerim do not reflect well on that. If Loghain did reach out to the Free Marches, which I rather doubt he did, considering he counseled Maric against heading there 5 years ago, it does not seem to have had much of an effect.
EDIT: Orzammar and the Circle, yes, I acknowledge those efforts. That's still nowhere near enough, and detracts from the point somewhat. It was in Ferelden's best interests, as soon as they were liberated from imperial rule, to partner themselves with a powerful ally like the Nevarrans, in the case of further Orlesian aggression. What I'm trying to say is that Ferelden should have had safety nets built ages ago to mitigate some of the damage of a potential war. Loghain, as justifiably paranoid of the Orlesians as he is, should have thought of that.
The overwhelming hatred of 'dog lords', murderous resistance against aiding Denerim (think of Lord Harimann), and absence of any Free Marchers in the battle for Denerim do not reflect well on that. If Loghain did reach out to the Free Marches, which I rather doubt he did, considering he counseled Maric against heading there 5 years ago, it does not seem to have had much of an effect.
EDIT: Orzammar and the Circle, yes, I acknowledge those efforts. That's still nowhere near enough, and detracts from the point somewhat. It was in Ferelden's best interests, as soon as they were liberated from imperial rule, to partner themselves with a powerful ally like the Nevarrans, in the case of further Orlesian aggression. What I'm trying to say is that Ferelden should have had safety nets built ages ago to mitigate some of the damage of a potential war. Loghain, as justifiably paranoid of the Orlesians as he is, should have thought of that.
The overwhelming hatred of 'dog lords', murderous resistance against aiding Denerim (think of Lord Harimann), and absence of any Free Marchers in the battle for Denerim do not reflect well on that. If Loghain did reach out to the Free Marches, which I rather doubt he did, considering he counseled Maric against heading there 5 years ago, it does not seem to have had much of an effect.
EDIT: Orzammar and the Circle, yes, I acknowledge those efforts. That's still nowhere near enough, and detracts from the point somewhat. It was in Ferelden's best interests, as soon as they were liberated from imperial rule, to partner themselves with a powerful ally like the Nevarrans, in the case of further Orlesian aggression. What I'm trying to say is that Ferelden should have had safety nets built ages ago to mitigate some of the damage of a potential war. Loghain, as justifiably paranoid of the Orlesians as he is, should have thought of that.
And he seems to be way to mistrustful of any foreign influence to do so.
Gotta love isolationism. Nothing ever goes wrong there.
I don't deny that a Nevarran alliance is in Ferelden's best interests. An alliance between Nevarra, The Free Marches, and Ferelden would be best, considering all of them have a hatred of Orlais. However I do deny that it should have been done "as soon as they were liberated". That's just begging for another war to start.
It has to be a slow and gradual process.
Still, it's disingenuous to act as if Loghain is a rampant isolationist. He abhors Orlais, but not other nations.
considering he counseled Maric against heading there 5 years ago, it does not seem to have had much of an effect.
I believe you are mistaken. What Loghain counseled Maric on was that there was piracy afoot from the mouth of an ambassador from the Free Marches (in the Calling). Nothing about how Loghain felt Maric shouldn't head there.
Indeed, Maric was to attend a meeting of Marcher lords that would've gone towards forging a union of the Free Marches' city states (and potentially an alliance given peace between Orlais and Ferelden was only alive for five years now IIRC) but disappeared at sea. What Loghain said was that Orlais must have been involved.
King Maric Theirin, widely regarded as a hero by the Fereldan people for liberating the country from Orlesian rule, disappeared at sea while en route to Wycome in 9:25 Dragon. He was to attend a gathering of the Marcher lords in an attempt to forge a union in the north, and when he failed to appear, the Free Marches fell back into the petty squabbling that they are infamous for.
Teyrn Loghain spent almost two years searching for his lost friend, consuming much of the royal treasury and the majority of the Fereldan navy. The search was futile, and when Loghain claimed that Orlais had purposefully sunk King Maric's vessel in order to prevent Marcher unity, he was called off by his daughter, Queen Anora, and a united Bannorn. It was time to mourn the king, they said, and so, in 9:27, a massive state funeral was held in Denerim's chantry.
To this day, rumors insist that Maric is still alive, perhaps held in an Orlesian prison somewhere. The lasting mystique has increased the value of his personal possessions, leading to the theft of several artifacts from the royal palace. Among these was the helmet said to have been worn by a young Maric at the disastrous Battle of West Hill.
The overwhelming hatred of 'dog lords', murderous resistance against aiding Denerim (think of Lord Harimann), and absence of any Free Marchers in the battle for Denerim do not reflect well on that. If Loghain did reach out to the Free Marches, which I rather doubt he did, considering he counseled Maric against heading there 5 years ago, it does not seem to have had much of an effect.
EDIT: Orzammar and the Circle, yes, I acknowledge those efforts. That's still nowhere near enough, and detracts from the point somewhat. It was in Ferelden's best interests, as soon as they were liberated from imperial rule, to partner themselves with a powerful ally like the Nevarrans, in the case of further Orlesian aggression. What I'm trying to say is that Ferelden should have had safety nets built ages ago to mitigate some of the damage of a potential war. Loghain, as justifiably paranoid of the Orlesians as he is, should have thought of that.
Yes, but the fact is that Lord Harimann is helping. It's not like Loghain is completely unwilling to use foreign aid. As for Loghain counseling against Maric personally leaving his fortress to travel over several miles of ocean (at least) in a wooden object, when he could as easily have sent a henchman, I don't see how that necessarily suggests a distrust of the Nevarrans. (Edit: Or, never mind, since I seem to have misunderstood the situation and Loghain's objection.)
On a distantly related note, how frustrating is Ser Cauthrien?
I swear, even my characters who ALWAYS go with diplomatic options still make an exceptions for her and intimidate her out of their way at the landsmeet. It's satisfying to watch her back down, but it would be more satisfying if she would just shut up and do it, instead of telling us what to do.
@Warrioroflight999
Did you ever fantasize about what she would say to Queen Cousland if she ever came before the throne after all was over?
I did. I fantasized about it. I think it would be awkward for her. 
The woman called me a churl, too.
@Warrioroflight999
Did you ever fantasize about what she would say to Queen Cousland if she ever came before the throne after all was over?
I did. I fantasized about it. I think it would be awkward for her.
The woman called me a churl, too.
Her first reaction would probably look like this. Seriously, why do you think it's a good idea to spare Cauthrien in a playthrough where you can't not kill Loghain?
Her first reaction would probably look like this. Seriously, why do you think it's a good idea to spare Cauthrien in a playthrough where you can't not kill Loghain?
Because of how that doesn't happen. She's gone before the events of the landsmeet, it's too late for her to change her move now.
And if she tries it after you're done slaying the Archdemon and saving Ferelden from the Blight? That's her foolishness and her death.
Edit: It's a totally reasonable roleplay move, if you're thinking as your character and not yourself. She might be infuriating, but she's still clearly someone who could be reasoned with. It's very plausible for someone to believe she doesn't deserve to die while Loghain does.
Because of how that doesn't happen. She's gone before the events of the landsmeet, it's too late for her to change her move now.
And if she tries it after you're done slaying the Archdemon and saving Ferelden from the Blight? That's her foolishness and her death.
Unless your back is turned, or she finds her way into your bedroom while you're asleep.
Unless your back is turned, or she finds her way into your bedroom while you're asleep.
So Ser Cauthrien is an assassin now? Because she wasn't prepared for the POSSIBILITY of you killing Loghain despite her plea? She thought, I guess, that she could just be like "Oh please don't let him die in there though," and that would then make it certain that all would be well for her darling mentor?
Also, since when is it a shock that I (as the Hero of Ferelden) have people who want me dead? I'm giving her a chance, and if she decides that she wants to hunt me down then okay, I'll deal with that. She MIGHT succeed, and so might the next batch of Darkspawn or Antivan Crows.
But your original example had her backed by an army. Either before the battle at Denerim (which doesn't happen) or Against Queen and King Saviors from the Blight. I suggest that this army is unlikely to fill very quickly, and if it does, is likely to be well-opposed.
So Ser Cauthrien is an assassin now? Because she wasn't prepared for the POSSIBILITY of you killing Loghain despite her plea? She thought, I guess, that she could just be like "Oh please don't let him die in there though," and that would then make it certain that all would be well for her darling mentor?
Also, since when is it a shock that I (as the Hero of Ferelden) have people who want me dead? I'm giving her a chance, and if she decides that she wants to hunt me down then okay, I'll deal with that. She MIGHT succeed, and so might the next batch of Darkspawn or Antivan Crows.
But your original example had her backed by an army. Either before the battle at Denerim (which doesn't happen) or Against Queen and King Saviors from the Blight. I suggest that this army is unlikely to fill very quickly, and if it does, is likely to be well-opposed.
Her methods, and the extent to which she's justified, aren't central to my arguments. The point is that she has what she could very well see as reason to be angry, and that Cauthrien is a dangerous person on her own merits. Whether or not she could succeed (and she has a better chance than you seem to think, since being impaled is probably less survivable in the lore than in the gameplay) the fact is that it's safer to just kill her right there and then while you have the chance.
Her methods, and the extent to which she's justified, aren't central to my arguments. The point is that she has what she could very well see as reason to be angry, and that Cauthrien is a dangerous person on her own merits. Whether or not she could succeed (and she has a better chance than you seem to think, since being impaled is probably less survivable in the lore than in the gameplay) the fact is that it's safer to just kill her right there and then while you have the chance.
Sure, it would definitely be safer, and you could definitely call the two characters out of my eleven who did that foolish for doing so. I don't argue that at all. It has to do with what they feel is the right thing in that moment, and those two felt it was the right thing to give her a chance. She took it, and she knows that Loghain might die that day, even if she walks away. Those two also felt executing Loghain for his crimes was the right thing. So that's what happened.
Those characters own those actions, and they know their could be consequences. There could be consequences either way. Someone who loves Cauthrien, a family member for example, might try to hunt you down if you kill her.
The other nine did something different, either because they were much more practical and less idealistic or just idealistic in a different way (such as offering Loghain a chance to atone by living as a Grey Warden).
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