3201 réponses à ce sujet

[Rodulv]

I let him live because I prefer to have Alistair become a wandering drunk.  

[ZipZap2000]

Kill him and lock his wife in the tower.

[Nessaya]

I agree. I tend to speak out when someone gives a logical opinion. I will call out people for making weird assumptions, or crazy comparisons. But usually I look for a good debate, an intellectual debate. Overall, people can play however they want. If you want to execute Loghain because he's too old in your opinion, it's your call. But it does make me shake my head, when they slaughter people and follow that up with saying something like "I did it for my Alistair, because hes so dreamy  " or some kind of crap.... its a little creepy.

 

That made me chuckle. I am completely with you on this one.

Although in all fairness, the bias works both ways. There are enough people out there who would kill Alistair in a heartbeat for equally bland reasons, e.g. for not living up to their perceived standards of what a man "should" behave like.

 

That being said, in most of my playthroughs I don't let Loghain live, simply because I believe he has outlived his use. He used to be a great leader, but by now, his judgement has become clouded by bitterness, stubborness and prejudice. I am not disputing the fact that he is a great tactician - his retreat from Ostagar was the only choice he had besides needlessly sacrificing himself and his men on the battlefield. It's his actions AFTER Ostagar that ruin it for me. Bringing his country to the verge of civil war, subduing all opposition (even poisoning the only other noble that can stand up to him!), trying to exterminate and casting the blame on the only people who can stop the Blight after clearly having seen the danger going out from the Horde without even considering taking on outside help... I understand his reasoning - doesn't mean that I think it is correct or that I approve of it.

Simply put, I believe letting Loghain die in an honourable duel and putting a generally respected leader in power that hasn't been involved in Loghain's conspiracies would do far more towards uniting Ferelden in the eyes of the people and stopping the Blight than any of the other choices given.

[TEWR]

Kill him and lock his wife in the tower.

 

His wife never appeared. I think you mean Anora, his daughter.

 

Still a terrifying thought all the same that a person would do that to her, since that type of thing will end in her death.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

His wife never appeared. I think you mean Anora, his daughter.

 

Still a terrifying thought all the same that a person would do that to her, since that type of thing will end in her death.

If she doesn't wind up on the throne, she won't give you much choice. (This is part of why I like the idea of an arranged marriage.)

[WarriorOfLight999]

Perhaps.

 

IRL, I'd have her executed immediately afterwards. While it might sound cruel, she will stop at nothing to take back the throne and seek vengeance on those who took it and her father from her. No deal, no bargain would satisfy her. Circumstances aside, she and Elissa have that in common.

 

@Nessaya

 

I agree with a good part of what you have said, but watch yourself around Eamon. He's simply not to be trusted. And the Civil War cannot be put all at Loghains feet. There are some unscrupulous characters in the Landsmeet who saw their 'opportunity' when Cailan died. Why suffer another moment of a common born Queen when you can simply take the throne and put your own blue blooded daughter or son on it? Yes, Anora is technically a noble, but the nobles don't see it that way. They likely see her as the offspring of an up-jumped, arrogant commoner made Teryn of Gwaren.

[-TC1989-]

That made me chuckle. I am completely with you on this one.

Although in all fairness, the bias works both ways. There are enough people out there who would kill Alistair in a heartbeat for equally bland reasons, e.g. for not living up to their perceived standards of what a man "should" behave like.

 

Oh definitely. Some people kill Alistair for equally stupid reasons, but all those gush threads on Alistair sort of put him in the majority with that nonsensical outlook on how to deal with characters in these games. And the way I see it... the only reason I would live with Alistair dying, is because he feels he can just drop what he's doing, and just ignore his oath, and leave Ferelden. Typically desertion in that magnitude is punishable by death. I look at what Loghain did as desertion as well, but he had a legitimate reason for doing what he did.... Alistair did not. "Well Alistair felt betrayed because Loghain became the very thing he tried to destroy". If it worked like that, don't you think Riordan would have been the first to put him to the sword? He didn't because he saw potential, and use for a very skilled fighter... you need every available blade, especially ones that can kill the archdemon. Throwing away lives based on emotion, and risking x amount of lives to avenge one person.... is ridiculously naive.

 

That being said, in most of my playthroughs I don't let Loghain live, simply because I believe he has outlived his use. He used to be a great leader, but by now, his judgement has become clouded by bitterness, stubborness and prejudice. I am not disputing the fact that he is a great tactician - his retreat from Ostagar was the only choice he had besides needlessly sacrificing himself and his men on the battlefield. It's his actions AFTER Ostagar that ruin it for me. Bringing his country to the verge of civil war, subduing all opposition (even poisoning the only other noble that can stand up to him!), trying to exterminate and casting the blame on the only people who can stop the Blight after clearly having seen the danger going out from the Horde without even considering taking on outside help... I understand his reasoning - doesn't mean that I think it is correct or that I approve of it.
Simply put, I believe letting Loghain die in an honourable duel and putting a generally respected leader in power that hasn't been involved in Loghain's conspiracies would do far more towards uniting Ferelden in the eyes of the people and stopping the Blight than any of the other choices given.

 

This is where I start to disagree with people on Loghain. Whether you believe he is or isn't useful anymore is a little short sighted, don't you think? I mean obviously the game makes you choose, and you decide based on whatever you believe. I think that part in the game was poorly done, but it is what it is. But to say killing Loghain is smart because there is no use for him? He obviously has some use. At the very least make him a foot soldier. The man is clearly still a capable fighter, and can handle himself. You know for sure he won't drop everything and abandon Ferelden. So the way I see it is, you have a skilled fighter that is clearly dedicated to the country you are defending... what is useless about that? I'm not even saying give him command (which I would), but just put him in the field. The war, and the position we are in.... we can't get too picky on morals, and too touchy on emotional attachments. I mean again, the game lets you get as emotionally biased as you want, but from a realistic view point? It's not the most logical route to take.

[Nessaya]

Oh definitely. Some people kill Alistair for equally stupid reasons, but all those gush threads on Alistair sort of put him in the majority with that nonsensical outlook on how to deal with characters in these games. And the way I see it... the only reason I would live with Alistair dying, is because he feels he can just drop what he's doing, and just ignore his oath, and leave Ferelden. Typically desertion in that magnitude is punishable by death. I look at what Loghain did as desertion as well, but he had a legitimate reason for doing what he did.... Alistair did not. "Well Alistair felt betrayed because Loghain became the very thing he tried to destroy". If it worked like that, don't you think Riordan would have been the first to put him to the sword? He didn't because he saw potential, and use for a very skilled fighter... you need every available blade, especially ones that can kill the archdemon. Throwing away lives based on emotion, and risking x amount of lives to avenge one person.... is ridiculously naive.

 

I was merely neutrally pointing out that the bias works both ways, nothing more, nothing less.

 

This is where I start to disagree with people on Loghain. Whether you believe he is or isn't useful anymore is a little short sighted, don't you think? I mean obviously the game makes you choose, and you decide based on whatever you believe. I think that part in the game was poorly done, but it is what it is. But to say killing Loghain is smart because there is no use for him? He obviously has some use. At the very least make him a foot soldier. The man is clearly still a capable fighter, and can handle himself. You know for sure he won't drop everything and abandon Ferelden. So the way I see it is, you have a skilled fighter that is clearly dedicated to the country you are defending... what is useless about that? I'm not even saying give him command (which I would), but just put him in the field. The war, and the position we are in.... we can't get too picky on morals, and too touchy on emotional attachments. I mean again, the game lets you get as emotionally biased as you want, but from a realistic view point? It's not the most logical route to take.

 

So  - what use does he have exactly? I mean from the perspective of the Warden, not the perspective of us people who have read the books and such.

Use him as a foot soldier, or as a person in command? In my opinion the reasons I listed are more than enough for the Warden to mistrust his sense of good judgement, so... no. And frankly, how can anyone who doesn't know Loghain personally foresee that he can be 'redeemed' so easily when he becomes a companion? Or even that he is a good fighter and 'can handle himself'? The Warden doesn't know that. As far as the Warden knows, Loghain is a tactical legend whose legendary status was established decades ago, and whose sole stroke of genius nowadays was to leave the battlefield at Ostagar, try to establish himself as regent against the will of the Bannorn, and attempt to cowardly poison his most potent opponent, besides trying to cast the blame of it all on (and hunt down) the sole people who can actually defeat the very threat he is up against. What is left there that speaks for him in the eyes of the Warden? He doesn't have much to go on bar Loghain's former glory and the opinion of a Grey Warden he met two days ago. Also, anyone can claim to be a patriot and commit atrocities in the name of that... As far as my (canon) Warden is concerned, Loghain comes off as a power-hungry despot who has gone a little soft in the head due to age and a trauma sufferend decades ago.

 

I am saying this without emotional bias, and you completely misunderstand me if you think it's about being picky on morals - or that I never pick Loghain as a companion, because I do (for different reasons). I am also not saying that the other nobles are better or worse than him when it comes to political intrigues. All I am saying is that the Warden has to trust his own judgement when it comes to Loghain's fate without having the information that we as players have - and imo this is what my (canon) Warden would see. He would also believe that sacrificing Loghain would be the best course of action due to 2 things: 1. Redemption, 2. To appease the general populace and establish the Warden's own power and agenda (meaning: put the person of the Warden's choice in power). As you yourself said, these are hard times - so this is hardly the time for the Warden to 'try to see past the man' and look for potential that, looking at his own history with Loghain, he probably won't find there.

 

I admit that you could always try to recruit him into the Wardens - if he survives, good, if he dies, he will also have been redeemed. Here it really depends on how important it is for your Warden to get along with Alistair.

 

So I guess you are right in that he does have a use. I believe our viewpoints simply differ in what that use actually is.

[Ferocious7]

I have tried all of the options and IMO, find it best to let Loghain sacrifice himself at the end (therefore he has to survive in order to make it to the final battle of course).  But to each their own.

[-TC1989-]

I was merely neutrally pointing out that the bias works both ways, nothing more, nothing less.

 

 

So  - what use does he have exactly? I mean from the perspective of the Warden, not the perspective of us people who have read the books and such.

 

Using your own words.. "Looking past the man" is exactly what I am doing in this case. When you are eyeball deep in a blight, all I see is numbers, and tools to use for my fight. It wasn't about using the legend that is Loghain... it's about using a man named Loghain. You just fought him, and we see first hand he is a good fighter. How many Wardens do we have walking against the Archdemon right now? And what damage could adding one more do? That is the perspective I see as a Warden.

 

 

 

Use him as a foot soldier, or as a person in command? In my opinion the reasons I listed are more than enough for the Warden to mistrust his sense of good judgement, so... no. And frankly, how can anyone who doesn't know Loghain personally foresee that he can be 'redeemed' so easily when he becomes a companion? Or even that he is a good fighter and 'can handle himself'? The Warden doesn't know that. As far as the Warden knows, Loghain is a tactical legend whose legendary status was established decades ago, and whose sole stroke of genius nowadays was to leave the battlefield at Ostagar, try to establish himself as regent against the will of the Bannorn, and attempt to cowardly poison his most potent opponent, besides trying to cast the blame of it all on (and hunt down) the sole people who can actually defeat the very threat he is up against. What is left there that speaks for him in the eyes of the Warden? He doesn't have much to go on bar Loghain's former glory and the opinion of a Grey Warden he met two days ago. Also, anyone can claim to be a patriot and commit atrocities in the name of that... As far as my (canon) Warden is concerned, Loghain comes off as a power-hungry despot who has gone a little soft in the head due to age and a trauma sufferend decades ago.

 

Whether as a soldier or a commander... it's better than a corpse. You waste both opportunities just running him through with a sword. I think it's wasted potential.

 

You go by his history, not his personal character. You really think Loghain has a mindset of "If I can't rule Ferelden, I'll see her burn to the ground"? He would die before letting any part of Ferelden turn to literal poison, and that is what I trust. I trust his devotion to his homeland, as corrupt as his mind might be (which to what degree, I think its a little overblown). He is someone that I believe can set personal disputes aside in order to save his land first. That is what I focus on as well, one problem at a time. Save the world from being destroyed, then worry about the justice of a single man.

 

What people like Alistair need to understand, is that Wardens aren't just a faction of noble, selfless heroes that fight for good every single day. Some Wardens are made based on desperation. I can almost assure you that Riordan was just as bummed at the idea as Alistair about the idea of having Loghain join the Wardens. But Riordan was thinking of the war, not the fact that a class act was joining their ranks.

 

 

 

I am saying this without emotional bias, and you completely misunderstand me if you think it's about being picky on morals - or that I never pick Loghain as a companion, because I do (for different reasons). I am also not saying that the other nobles are better or worse than him when it comes to political intrigues. All I am saying is that the Warden has to trust his own judgement when it comes to Loghain's fate without having the information that we as players have - and imo this is what my (canon) Warden would see. He would also believe that sacrificing Loghain would be the best course of action due to 2 things: 1. Redemption, 2. To appease the general populace and establish the Warden's own power and agenda (meaning: put the person of the Warden's choice in power). As you yourself said, these are hard times - so this is hardly the time for the Warden to 'try to see past the man' and look for potential that, looking at his own history with Loghain, he probably won't find there.

I admit that you could always try to recruit him into the Wardens - if he survives, good, if he dies, he will also have been redeemed. Here it really depends on how important it is for your Warden to get along with Alistair.

So I guess you are right in that he does have a use. I believe our viewpoints simply differ in what that use actually is.

 

I do the same thing, completely based without emotional bias. But when you view the picture of... A.) Loghain joins your group, while Alistair has a tantrum and storms out, or B.)You give Alistair what he wants, and Loghain is dead. Now you can get into the whole "harden" Alistair stuff, but I don't get into all that. That to me is a little irrelevant. So based on those two things happening, I'm going with A.

 

If you want to see what Loghain is gaining from surviving the Landsmeet, then go ahead. I simply look at it as... I'm adding another person to the war. I never thought of it like "yeah, my bro Loghain killing that Archdemon", because quite frankly I don't really care for the guy. I'm using his devotion, and skill for the war I'm fighting. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

And hey, that is what forums are all about right? Difference in opinion. 

[Lady Artifice]

Loghain sacrificing himself is my least favorite fate for him. I'm in the group that does think his actions at Ostagar are abhorrent, and for that matter not as tactically brilliant as he and his fans believe. I don't want him hero-worshipped throughout Ferelden. 

 

My favorite fate is him living out a grueling but useful existence as a Grey Warden while my Warden makes the sacrifice. That one satisfies me. 

[Xetykins]

Say whatever you want about those Alistair gush threads but you gotta admit that if a character is a total shmuck they wouldnt still be alive until now. Like umm.. i dont see loghain thread anymore for a great while now. And its just not fan girling that makes us kill loghain like you always seem to point out. Its a matter of choosing a trusted companion whos already deeply commited on the cause againts someone whos done nothing but trying screw that up from day 1. Please do not generalise. Theres a lot of factors here why people kill loghain. In my case its where i come from. Seeing a lot of military people who are untouchable by any law and just do whatever the fek they want. Not all of us grew up in a society full of perfumed roses. That is the main reason why he never ever lives in any of my pts. If Alistair is even a quarter of a shmuck as loghain there wont be a lot of fangirling around at least not from me. It will be a trade off between shmucks i can just flip the coin and be done with it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Loghain sacrificing himself is my least favorite fate for him. I'm in the group that does think his actions at Ostagar are abhorrent, and for that matter not as tactically brilliant as he and his fans believe. I don't want him hero-worshipped throughout Ferelden.

 

My favorite fate is him living out a grueling but useful existence as a Grey Warden while my Warden makes the sacrifice. That one satisfies me. 

We're not arguing that they were brilliant, so much as we're noting that we can't really see much of an alternative once the battle starts. (Uldred's plan might have been one if there were fewer darkspawn.)

[-TC1989-]

Say whatever you want about those Alistair gush threads but you gotta admit that if a character is a total shmuck they wouldnt still be alive until now. Like umm.. i dont see loghain thread anymore for a great while now. And its just not fan girling that makes us kill loghain like you always seem to point out. Its a matter of choosing a trusted companion whos already deeply commited on the cause againts someone whos done nothing but trying screw that up from day 1. Please do not generalise. 

 

Say whatever I want? You think I make this up? I don't hate Alistair so much that I just pull made up stuff from my ass, I can assure you. And I brought up the fan girling twice? I was responding to a post specifically when I said that anyway. And saying I generalize women as Alistair gushers is clearly stretching what I said. I said "Some people kill Alistair for equally stupid reasons", and when you compare Alistair to Loghain, yes the majority gush over Alistair... I thought that was fairly obvious?

 

I'm not surprised we don't see a lot of Loghain threads. First of all he wasn't as involved in the overall story as much as Alistair was, and obviously people will relate to Alistair more. And if you read what I said, I don't care how you handle your decisions, kill Loghain for simply looking weird... whatever you want. It's all  about choice. And some people do make good arguments for wanting Loghain dead, but a lot of posts I see are just pure sympathizers for Alistair. They talk about feeling bad because his feelings are hurt during the Landsmeet, which I find a little ridiculous. But that is my opinion.

 

 

Theres a lot of factors here why people kill loghain. In my case its where i come from. Seeing a lot of military people who are untouchable by any law and just do whatever the fek they want. Not all of us grew up in a society full of perfumed roses. That is the main reason why he never ever lives in any of my pts. If Alistair is even a quarter of a shmuck as loghain there wont be a lot of fangirling around at least not from me. It will be a trade off between shmucks i can just flip the coin and be done with it.

 

 

You see a lot of reasons to simply look past using him against the blight, and just kill him outright.... I don't. And as I've said numerous times here.... I don't care what standing he has with Ferelden, he is a skilled fighter that I want to use against the blight... boom, done. I don't care what his history is with Maric, or what ties he has with whoever. He is a respected military figure that we could put to use against the darkspawn. That is it.

 

And as I've said again numerous times, people like to base their decision in this situation based on emotion.... I do not. So what you see as giving Loghain the slip because of his history, I see it as an opportunity to use a man who loves this country, and would die defending it. No titles, no past heroics.... I am in the moment of right now.

[Xetykins]

You reaaally dont need him at all even with all his past stale glories. Having said that you dont need alistair too apparently. This all boils down to player choice because none of them are that important to the story. So its a personal pick on what people are willing to swallow. Dont give me this loghain is a good fighter crap because so was alistair but with some moral compass. After landsmeet whatever choice you make is redundant. Now you gotta live with that choice in your camp ever after.

[Merle McClure II]

OK, as a disclaimer, I'm not going to read a 88 page thread before jumping in, but personally my Wardens tend to execute Loghain, partially for admittedly emotional reasons, but I think there's something to be said for the simple fact that Allistiar has already survived his Joining, if the Warden fell in battle he'd be able to slay the archdemon, if I'm remembering correctly at the time when the "choose between Loghain and Allistiar" decision has to be made there is no way to know whether or not Loghain would survive the Joining or not. What would happen if he died like the other two recruits?

 

 

 

 

EDIT...

 

Now, just to clarify my position, I personally believe that Loghain withdrawing his troops at Ostagar was probably the right thing to do, the "man child" of a King had picked a losing fight in a vain attempt at glory and Duncan was so blinded at the possibility of regaining a foothold in the kingdom that he might as well have been a wet nurse instead of an adviser. 

 

 

Still, Word of God claiming that  he wasn't aware of some of Howe's worse transgressions aside, much of Loghian's actions afterward do seem aimed more towards destabilizing the region in order to secure his own power then actually caring about the welfare of the nation he hoped to rule. (If I remember correctly wasn't he also involved with destabilizing the Circle? ... It's been awhile and I might be misremembering.) --- I can probably buy the idea that he believed the Darkspawn not to be a threat before Ostagar and Lothering, but afterwards? 

[-TC1989-]

You reaaally dont need him at all even with all his past stale glories. Having said that you dont need alistair too apparently. This all boils down to player choice because none of them are that important to the story. So its a personal pick on what people are willing to swallow. Dont give me this loghain is a good fighter crap because so was alistair but with some moral compass. After landsmeet whatever choice you make is redundant. Now you gotta live with that choice in your camp ever after.

 

Past stale glories? Hmm... alrighty then.

 

So Alistair and Loghain are both great fighters. Glad we established that. But as you seem to be implying, who cares if they are great fighters, right? And I'm surprised you are sticking by this moral compass of Alistairs. To me... a person that can willingly write off a country, and all the people that die because he wasn't there to prevent it... doesn't really tell me they are that much of an upstanding hero. Whatever you want to make of his choice, the fact remains that his presence could have saved lives. But making his choice, he is ultimately deciding that. And if you say "well he couldn't have known that"... you are telling me he is that dense? If Alistair believed that he couldn't have changed a single life with his presence, then he is more stupid than I thought, and clearly more selfish.

 

By the way... I gladly live with my choice, because I'm thinking of the welfare of the country. Not satisfying the feelings of one man.

 

OK, as a disclaimer, I'm not going to read a 88 page thread before jumping in, but personally my Wardens tend to execute Loghain, partially for admittedly emotional reasons, but I think there's something to be said for the simple fact that Allistiar has already survived his Joining, if the Warden fell in battle he'd be able to slay the archdemon, if I'm remembering correctly at the time when the "choose between Loghain and Allistiar" decision has to be made there is no way to know whether or not Loghain would survive the Joining or not. What would happen if he died like the other two recruits?

 

Fair enough, I wouldn't ask you to do that. And at least you can admit your choice was based on emotion, which is yours to make of course. I sometimes make the emotional choice myself, but when deciding the fate of an entire country, I look at odds, and advantages.

 

And yes, when I chose to keep Loghain alive, I didn't know that he would surive the joining. But throwing his life away from the get-go would have killed any potential. Riordan was the veteran, and I believe he knew what he was doing. And honestly, Alistair should have trusted in that as well. Especially someone that was guided by Duncan. Alistair left because of Loghain, so what does that say about him? If Loghain had died from the joining, and Alistair had already left Ferelden, you still hold the Warden responsible? Alistair kept saying all this stuff about Duncan being honorable, and being this about a situation, and that, and etc. Did Alistair learn none of this? Did Alistair believe that every Warden was a full class act, that had the same beliefs as Duncan? I bet you Duncan would have decided to let Loghain in as well. That is one thing that irks me the most about Alistair, that he ends up thinking for himself, not what Duncan would have wanted, or what the Wardens need. Riordan had no love for Loghain, but you can't get caught up in emotional distress. If Alistair learned anything from Duncan, he would have tried to live with it, and save Ferelden first, before deciding to ultimately walk away from it all.

[Xetykins]

Feelings of one man? You do not take account on what other personally feel about loghain who i can gather in your words the epitome of heroics and did not leave the country ravages by the blight and left the wardens and countless others to die ( as confirmed by varric's narration in the keep) and sold elves to slavery and tried to doom ferelden by trying to kill the 2 remaining wardens. It was even in the keep about his inactivity againts the blight. Now the choice between him and someone who only seeks justice, the kind of justice the me as a player wants met. Its an easy choice. Its not all about alistair like you always point out because whether alistair throws a fit or not, he dies anyway. Yes i called.it hissy fit its not all halleluhja alistair.

Color it fan girling if you must but your perception of loghain does not apply to all.

I respect you and the others here who found it in their hearts to forgive him. Unfortunately i cant. I do like his character. But were presented here with a choice and theres no wrong or right. At the end of the day those choices only matters for the player not to the world of thedas critically.

But the way you talk about the gush threads feels like were all mindless sheeps.

[Merle McClure II]

I can't really disagree with your basic points on their merits ... Alistair forcing the issue isn't one of his shining moments, but once again on an emotional level I can definently see where he is coming from considering that in his perspective Loghain is responsible for one of his father figure's death (I don't actually blame Loghain for Duncan's death but that's beside the point at the moment.) and hired someone to murder his other one. ... I want to believe that had Lohgain died in the Joining then Alistair would have come back for the final battle, but I think that the simple truth is that at that moment Alistair wasn't strong enough to fulfill his duty. (I also believe that the guilt for not honoring Duncan's memory is a large part in his downfall in DA II should you go down that route.) In fact I imagine that even in timelines where Loghain is executed, Alistair tries really hard not to think about being willing to throw everything away.

 

 

Still though, I'm not sure that I totally buy the idea that Loghain was the natural choice in being made a Grey Warden on his merits as a leader alone considering that he was in the process of losing the country due to what I see as his character flaws. Kind of makes me wonder if the Wardens were attempting to play a more political angle.

[-TC1989-]

But the way you talk about the gush threads feels like were all mindless sheeps.

 

I'm only going to address your last comment, because while I do enjoy debating... I see where this conversation is going with you.

 

I love how you say all, or saying in general, as if I'm saying every Alistair female fan is basically an idiot. Some. Some Alistair fans are pathetically naive, yes. Not all, not most. Some. If you still feel offended, then maker help you.

 

What I will stand by, is that some of the things Alistair fans say can be a little creepy. This can happen for Zevran, Leliana, whatever. But we are talking about Alistair, and I've seen questionable posts about peoples devotion for him.

 

When I compare Alistair to Loghain, then I use the word most. Most fans are going to side with Alistair, whether its female or male. They typically feel guilty, or feel they need to do this for Alistair. Which annoys me because it comes back to what can we do for Alistair? That is my viewpoint on it though, but anyone can play anyway they want to.

[-TC1989-]

I can't really disagree with your basic points on their merits ... Alistair forcing the issue isn't one of his shining moments, but once again on an emotional level I can definently see where he is coming from considering that in his perspective Loghain is responsible for one of his father figure's death (I don't actually blame Loghain for Duncan's death but that's beside the point at the moment.) and hired someone to murder his other one. ... I want to believe that had Lohgain died in the Joining then Alistair would have come back for the final battle, but I think that the simple truth is that at that moment Alistair wasn't strong enough to fulfill his duty. (I also believe that the guilt for not honoring Duncan's memory is a large part in his downfall in DA II should you go down that route.) In fact I imagine that even in timelines where Loghain is executed, Alistair tries really hard not to think about being willing to throw everything away.

 

Emotionally speaking, who wouldn't hate Loghain with a burning passion? But you have to look at it logically. You have literally 3 Wardens fighting a blight. What sense does it make to throw a life away, that could help you stop it? Yes it's only one more person, but every bit helps. If the war was against other humans like Orlais, or something.... then emotion plays a more logical role. But you are literally talking about fighting monsters. Do you think they care for one second about morality? You have to put off the emotional calls for justice, and take care of that big demon dragon first. Then we can discuss what to do about the care, or moral decisions regarding Ferelden, or anyone affected personally.

 

Still though, I'm not sure that I totally buy the idea that Loghain was the natural choice in being made a Grey Warden on his merits as a leader alone considering that he was in the process of losing the country due to what I see as his character flaws. Kind of makes me wonder if the Wardens were attempting to play a more political angle.

 

To me, it was never about Loghain fitting the bill, or the right requirements about being a true Warden. We were desperate, and we needed numbers. Simple as that. No political angle, no scheme, just doing whatever I could to save Ferelden.

[Han Shot First]

Loghain sacrificing himself is my least favorite fate for him. I'm in the group that does think his actions at Ostagar are abhorrent, and for that matter not as tactically brilliant as he and his fans believe. I don't want him hero-worshipped throughout Ferelden. 

 

My favorite fate is him living out a grueling but useful existence as a Grey Warden while my Warden makes the sacrifice. That one satisfies me. 

 

Loghain's actions at Ostagar amounted to strategic failure of epic proportions. He commits one of the worst sins a military commander can commit, which is to underestimate an enemy. He doesn't appreciate the true threat of the darkspawn and his actions very nearly wipe out completely the only people in the kingdom capable of ending a Blight. It also ends up splitting the country into quarreling factions at the moment it was being invaded by an outside force. He was practically gift wrapping a divide-and-conquer victory to the darkspawn.

 

Loghain is Ferelden's Pompey Magnus. Maybe he was a solid military leader during the war with Orlais, but he's a bit washed up and past his prime by the time of DA:O. 

[Xetykins]

Lol you should see the old bsn gush thread. That was super weird and the pictures there could indeed make you question our sanity!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Loghain's actions at Ostagar amounted to strategic failure of epic proportions. He commits one of the worst sins a military commander can commit, which is to underestimate an enemy. He doesn't appreciate the true threat of the darkspawn and his actions very nearly wipe out completely the only people in the kingdom capable of ending a Blight. It also ends up splitting the country into quarreling factions at the moment it was being invaded by an outside force. He was practically gift wrapping a divide-and-conquer victory to the darkspawn.

 

Loghain is Ferelden's Pompey Magnus. Maybe he was a solid military leader during the war with Orlais, but he's a bit washed up and past his prime by the time of DA:O. 

All of which is either true or arguably true, but again: once the battle was started, and Cailan was already on the frontlines of a doomed battle, what else was Loghain to do except what he did?

[WarriorOfLight999]

Good points Han, but Loghain wasn't the only one responsible for that. Cailan didn't take anything seriously, much less the darkspawn. The Grey Wardens themselves made Loghain suspicious, as they endangered the life of King Maric.