We're not arguing that they were brilliant, so much as we're noting that we can't really see much of an alternative once the battle starts. (Uldred's plan might have been one if there were fewer darkspawn.)
I realize now that my comment sounded like a dig, and I didn't mean for it to.
I was just indulging my conceit and announcing to everyone my preference.
I'm not in his fan club, so I don't want him to get what he wants, and what he wants seems to be connected to his belief that he and he alone can save Ferelden. I hate the idea of a world state where he appears to be proven right.
I realize now that my comment sounded like a dig, and I didn't mean for it to.
I was just indulging my conceit and announcing to everyone my preference.
I'm not in his fan club, so I don't want him to get what he wants, and what he wants seems to be connected to his belief that he and he alone can save Ferelden. I hate the idea of a world state where he appears to be proven right.
He's doing so as your subordinate, though. And he's also doing so as a Warden, despite having doubted the necessity of the Wardens to the point where he feels safer without them. It's been proven that he has spent an entire year being entirely counterproductive to the survival of the country he was trying to save, and no matter who dies, you are considered to be the Hero of Ferelden. (Though as for Loghain being proven right: from what I understand of the plot of Legacy, The Last Flight, and Inquisition, there is no World State in which a healthy fear and distrust of the Wardens does not look at least semi-rational.)
He's doing so as your subordinate, though. And he's also doing so as a Warden, despite having doubted the necessity of the Wardens to the point where he feels safer without them. It's been proven that he has spent an entire year being entirely counterproductive to the survival of the country he was trying to save, and no matter who dies, you are considered to be the Hero of Ferelden. (Though as for Loghain being proven right: from what I understand of the plot of Legacy, The Last Flight, and Inquisition, there is no World State in which a healthy fear and distrust of the Wardens does not look at least semi-rational.)
All very true. And logical.
I'm not being logical right now, I'm being emotional. Also petty.
They make a shrine to him if he makes the sacrifice. A damn shrine. Duncan doesn't get a shrine, does he? But Loghain gets a shrine for people to bring flowers and candles to. He almost begs to make the sacrifice because he sees it as his redemption. Well, I don't want him to feel redeemed. I don't want the masses to see him as redeemed. I want my Warden to sacrifice everything to save everyone (including Loghain) and for him to have to live with that.
I'm not being logical right now, I'm being emotional. Also petty.
They make a shrine to him if he makes the sacrifice. A damn shrine. Duncan doesn't get a shrine, does he? But Loghain gets a shrine for people to bring flowers and candles to. He almost begs to make the sacrifice because he sees it as his redemption. Well, I don't want him to feel redeemed. I don't want the masses to see him as redeemed. I want my Warden to sacrifice everything to save everyone (including Loghain) and for him to have to live with that.
See? Vengeful and vindictive.
Well, no advice for that, then. (Except for "have fun.")
I'm not being logical right now, I'm being emotional. Also petty.
They make a shrine to him if he makes the sacrifice. A damn shrine. Duncan doesn't get a shrine, does he? But Loghain gets a shrine for people to bring flowers and candles to. He almost begs to make the sacrifice because he sees it as his redemption. Well, I don't want him to feel redeemed. I don't want the masses to see him as redeemed. I want my Warden to sacrifice everything to save everyone (including Loghain) and for him to have to live with that.
See? Vengeful and vindictive.
Only anora will prolly visit the shrine and no one else anyway, like the statue she made for him.
Only anora will prolly visit the shrine and no one else anyway, like the statue she made for him.
Nope. While the Warden is rightly recognized as the one running the show, dying to kill the Archdemon really is seen as Loghain regaining at least some of his glory. If you don't want him to be even partially redeemed, you really are going to have to do what Lady_Artifice suggests. (Or just slice his head off.)
I'm not being logical right now, I'm being emotional. Also petty.
They make a shrine to him if he makes the sacrifice. A damn shrine. Duncan doesn't get a shrine, does he? But Loghain gets a shrine for people to bring flowers and candles to. He almost begs to make the sacrifice because he sees it as his redemption. Well, I don't want him to feel redeemed. I don't want the masses to see him as redeemed. I want my Warden to sacrifice everything to save everyone (including Loghain) and for him to have to live with that.
See? Vengeful and vindictive.
Wait....Loghain? Loghain gets a shine if you let him live? I'm glad I killed that bastard every time. People are put in leadership roles for a reason. You don't do as you please. If you are going to lose then lose with your head high and beside your people. Everybody dies. How you die says a lot about you, but how you live says just as much. 1 decision doesn't just erase everything bad.
Disobey orders and let your own people get slaughtered because you don't have to balls to go out like a man. Let a ton of men and women better than you die while you escape.
"Cuz the real men die and its the worms that live....thats real ****** up, but thats how **** is."
I mean its cool from an exploratory and multiple decision standpoint, but that always rubbed me the wrong way. And in the end can get a shrine? Dang.
Wait....Loghain? Loghain gets a shine if you let him live? I'm glad I killed that bastard every time. People are put in leadership roles for a reason. You don't do as you please. If you are going to lose then lose with your head high and beside your people. Everybody dies. How you die says a lot about you, but how you live says just as much. 1 decision doesn't just erase everything bad.
Disobey orders and let your own people get slaughtered because you don't have to balls to go out like a man. Let a ton of men and women better than you die while you escape.
"Cuz the real men die and its the worms that live....thats real ****** up, but thats how **** is."
I mean its cool from an exploratory and multiple decision standpoint, but that always rubbed me the wrong way. And in the end can get a shrine? Dang.
Yeah, it's pretty crazy. Without even rehashing the debate regarding whether retreat at Ostagar was the "right"decision or not...so much useless death. Massive death, just accomplishing...nothing.
It's strange to think that some of the people who mourned the loss at Ostagar might later on be paying homage to the same guy let it happen, because of the perfectly valid reason that he later saved them from the Blight.
I let Loghain live sometimes, personally. About half. But it's never to let him make he sacrifice. I can't stomach him being remembered with quite that much adulation.
Spoiler
I feel a little differently about him potentially making the sacrifice in DAI...That seems a little more fitting for his character.
But even then, there will be times where the guy still can't die. Have fun still being alive and still a Warden, Loghain.
...Still, in the playthroughs where I really wanted to try to enjoy the end of Origins, he's already super dead, so there isn't a question.
Since you always kill Loghain, does Alistair usually stay a Warden or become King for you?
King usually, even when the Warden isn't in love with Alistair, there isn't much that actually shows Anora as deserving her reputation as being capable of ruling. --- With that said, given Alistair's decidedly lack of experience in the area, the Warden usually hedges by placing the two on the throne together, all the while keeping a close eye on them both as Alistair's mistress.
Since you always kill Loghain, does Alistair usually stay a Warden or become King for you?
I like to make him king. I think he grows into the role well and I like to see him be successful. That's not to say I see anything wrong with him staying a warden at all, I just like for him to grab life by the neck, I feel he needs grow up a little and that decision makes it happen without a doubt. I love the character and the voice actor of Alistair. I also "get" his sense of humor and enjoy it. I laughed very hard when I first got to Redcliffe and got to use that "royal bastard" line on him. Good times and good writing imo.
As much as I hate Loghain, i always feel like "that's Alistar's" and let him take care of his business. RIP Duncan.
Wait....Loghain? Loghain gets a shine if you let him live?
He gets a monument if he dies, if Anora is on the throne with or without Alistair. If he dies at the Landsmeet, nobody visits it. If he dies in the Final Battle, basically everyone does. If he survives the events of Origins I don't think he even gets one.
He gets a monument if he dies, if Anora is on the throne with or without Alistair. If he dies at the Landsmeet, nobody visits it. If he dies in the Final Battle, basically everyone does. If he survives the events of Origins I don't think he even gets one.
It shows what Loghain inner demons are. I agree that the retreat at Ostagar was sound given the circumstances, but everything he did after that was plain foolish. I made a post about it some time ago, not going to rehash it. I just liked how the fear demon does not taunt him about Ostagar, because that point is not really where Loghain really screwed up badly.
Riverdaleswhiteflash, TEWR et dragonflight288 aiment ceci
It shows what Loghain inner demons are. I agree that the retreat at Ostagar was sound given the circumstances, but everything he did after that was plain foolish. I made a post about it some time ago, not going to rehash it. I just liked how the fear demon does not taunt him about Ostagar, because that point is not really where Loghain really screwed up badly.
Thanks, I wondered what it was, and pretty much as I thought. He is at least aware of where he most failed in the worst way, and Nightmare's taunts don't mean much when it's something you've had 10 years to think on.
He's a pretty complex character in terms of morality. Initially I really disliked him but then I came to despise Duncan and the idea of Grey Wardens forcing others to join their cause. Gaining Loghain wasn't worth losing Alistair over for me, however, so I haven't yet gone down that particular route.
I prefer he dies due to the fact that he caused the deaths of so many soldiers and Grey Wardens at Ostagar and that he allowed Howe to conduct his evils unpunished.. Logain may have been a war hero but he's still a traitor to those who trusted him at Ostagar.
this is one of the few decisions that i feel really strongly about in the whole series. before i read the books, it was just personal for my cousland. after all, he played a part in her family's death (with the exception of fergus). other than that, i was romancing alistair so of course i would've wanted to keep him in my party.
however, after reading the books, my hatred of him grew. not only did he widow his own daughter, but after everything he and maric went through together, how could he kill his best friend's son and try to kill his remaining son? his hatred for all things orlesian blinded him to the real threat. no matter what his intentions or reasons were for doing what he did, his actions were simply inexcusable and for that, i can never allow him to live.
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