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[Ryzaki]

I just watched this scene today and Loghain is very clear on his wanting it done. Howe just brings Zev to him. Loghain has the power to refuse but he clearly wants them dead. So really, it was loghain. Howe at this point is nothing more than an errand boy on this one. The final say was Loghain's. He most definitely had NO problem with it. In fact, his tone was rather adamant the wardens were to be killed.

 

Not to mention it was Loghain who left his lackeys behind in Lothering with a description of you with KOS orders.

[Hellion Rex]

@OP, kill him. Every. Single. Time.

[Han Shot First]

I just watched this scene today and Loghain is very clear on his wanting it done. Howe just brings Zev to him. Loghain has the power to refuse but he clearly wants them dead. So really, it was loghain. Howe at this point is nothing more than an errand boy on this one. The final say was Loghain's. He most definitely had NO problem with it. In fact, his tone was rather adamant the wardens were to be killed.

 

Also Loghain is functioning as head of state. As such he is also responsible for the crimes of his subordinates. 

 

Laying everything at the feet of a Howe is a bit like saying Emperor Palpatine had no involvement in the destruction of Alderaan, and Vader and Moff Tarkin were entirely to blame.

[Aimi]

Also Loghain is functioning as head of state. As such he is also responsible for the crimes of his subordinates. 
 
Laying everything at the feet of a Howe is a bit like saying Emperor Palpatine had no involvement in the destruction of Alderaan, and Vader and Moff Tarkin were entirely to blame.

A sensible response. However, there are some interesting ideas about the destruction of Alderaan and internal Imperial power politics that, if true, would render it invalid. Take a look at the author's endnotes to the Essential Guide to Warfare. The Tarkin cabal hypothesis/suggestion there actually makes a great deal of sense.

[sylvanaerie]

I love the 'Howe was the one who did it' arguments for the sheer volley of stupidity being dredged up.  First of all, the scene where Zevran is hired, (which btw the PLAYER NOT THE WARDEN sees) Howe is merely the messenger, coming in with Zevran.  It's Loghain who gives the order, it's Loghain Zevran says hires him (later when you interrogate him) and it's Loghain who would be paying the bill for said assassination (which I don't imagine was cheap, also prompting more slavery crackdown by Loghain).  It's Loghain, not Howe, who wastes resources fighting with his fellow nobles instead of just admitting he was wrong to usurp Anora's throne and stepping down.  Pretty sure the more loyal nobles who were just opposing him (versus those who were grabbing for what land/power they could in the chaos) would have gotten behind Anora and helped.  In fact, in that conversation Howe advises him to stop fighting with his fellow countrymen and start going after the darkspawn but the "greatest general in Ferelden" (read:Idiot) insists he can do it all by himself.  Caladrius mentions Loghain BY NAME when he's trying to bargain with the warden, saying he knows you because you are all Loghain talks about.  Loghain's was the name signed on the dispensation papers letting them come in to take men, women and children into slavery (to blood mages).  Regardless of second class citizen status, elves were citizens of Ferelden too, Loghain just picked them because he thought no one would care.  Mentioning it won't give as many points as talking about Eamon's poisoning, but none of the nobles thought selling elves into slavery was a 'good idea'.

 

I hate Loghain, and that hasn't faded at all in the years since I first started playing this game.  He's an idiot, a traitor, and a slaver and I don't see any sign of repentance or regret at the conversation with him in Denerim with Eamon and at the Landsmeet (the only time the warden can truly see and confront him in game).  Without metagaming or some creative roleplaying (which I can see happening), Loghain's crimes deserve death (or at least life imprisonment).  The game however pigeon-holes you into killing or sparing him.

 

The level of stupid of Riordan cannot be expressed either.  Seriously, in ALL of Ferelden ONLY Loghain is available for the Joining?  WTF is the point of the 'rite of conscription' if it allows you to recruit only ONE person in all that time, a person who, up to now has been trying to kill you.

 

And killing Loghain isn't 'murder'.  It's a rightful execution.  The Landsmeet is a TRIAL for his crimes.  The PC is on trial (since Loghain is trying to prove you are in cahoots with Orlais for killing the king).  One of you must win, the other will be executed for his crimes.  The free for all that ensues is Loghain trying to stage a coup if he loses, Eamon doing the same if the PC loses.  The duel called for is "trial by combat" in which might makes right and the victor is claimed the winner of the Landsmeet.  Once you trounce Loghain (or if you are beaten and it's game over) the loser expects to be executed for his/her crimes.  That's how it goes.  Even Anora expresses regret it came to that point, but she doesn't hold it against the PC for what was done.

 

So, off with his head every time in my games and aside from doing right in front of Anora, I have no qualms with it.

[theskymoves]

I love the 'Howe was the one who did it' arguments for the sheer volley of stupidity being dredged up.  First of all, the scene where Zevran is hired, (which btw the PLAYER NOT THE WARDEN sees) Howe is merely the messenger, coming in with Zevran.  It's Loghain who gives the order, it's Loghain Zevran says hires him (later when you interrogate him) and it's Loghain who would be paying the bill for said assassination (which I don't imagine was cheap, also prompting more slavery crackdown by Loghain).  It's Loghain, not Howe, who wastes resources fighting with his fellow nobles instead of just admitting he was wrong to usurp Anora's throne and stepping down.  Pretty sure the more loyal nobles who were just opposing him (versus those who were grabbing for what land/power they could in the chaos) would have gotten behind Anora and helped.  In fact, in that conversation Howe advises him to stop fighting with his fellow countrymen and start going after the darkspawn but the "greatest general in Ferelden" (read:Idiot) insists he can do it all by himself.  Caladrius mentions Loghain BY NAME when he's trying to bargain with the warden, saying he knows you because you are all Loghain talks about.  Loghain's was the name signed on the dispensation papers letting them come in to take men, women and children into slavery (to blood mages).  Regardless of second class citizen status, elves were citizens of Ferelden too, Loghain just picked them because he thought no one would care.  Mentioning it won't give as many points as talking about Eamon's poisoning, but none of the nobles thought selling elves into slavery was a 'good idea'.

 

I hate Loghain, and that hasn't faded at all in the years since I first started playing this game.  He's an idiot, a traitor, and a slaver and I don't see any sign of repentance or regret at the conversation with him in Denerim with Eamon and at the Landsmeet (the only time the warden can truly see and confront him in game).  Without metagaming or some creative roleplaying (which I can see happening), Loghain's crimes deserve death (or at least life imprisonment).  The game however pigeon-holes you into killing or sparing him.

 

The level of stupid of Riordan cannot be expressed either.  Seriously, in ALL of Ferelden ONLY Loghain is available for the Joining?  WTF is the point of the 'rite of conscription' if it allows you to recruit only ONE person in all that time, a person who, up to now has been trying to kill you.

 

And killing Loghain isn't 'murder'.  It's a rightful execution.  The Landsmeet is a TRIAL for his crimes.  The PC is on trial (since Loghain is trying to prove you are in cahoots with Orlais for killing the king).  One of you must win, the other will be executed for his crimes.  The free for all that ensues is Loghain trying to stage a coup if he loses, Eamon doing the same if the PC loses.  The duel called for is "trial by combat" in which might makes right and the victor is claimed the winner of the Landsmeet.  Once you trounce Loghain (or if you are beaten and it's game over) the loser expects to be executed for his/her crimes.  That's how it goes.  Even Anora expresses regret it came to that point, but she doesn't hold it against the PC for what was done.

 

So, off with his head every time in my games and aside from doing right in front of Anora, I have no qualms with it.

 

I think I love you. 

[luna1124]

I saved him twice, just for the playthrough, for something different.  I made him once do the DR with Morrigan, and once let him kill Archy. The rest of my plays, he died.

[DarthGizka]

@ sylvanaerie

 

Really nice post, except that you pulled the execution bit out of thin air. That seems to go in the same direction as the popular 'to spare or not to spare' formulation which implicitly assumes a right to execution.

 

I'm not saying that "I felt like it, and I knew that I would get away with it" is not a valid reason. It is. But it's not a very interesting one, and it puts you in the same class as Bhelen and Howe. And Duncan, for that matter.
 

The question is whether there is sufficient reason so that a lawful good - or reasonably decent/grey - character would be justified in killing Loghain, or even compelled to do so. Because of the egregiousness of Loghain's crimes versus the likelihood that he would escape justice. As I said elsewhere, I think the elves do meet that criterion. But I am not certain who else would.

[sylvanaerie]

@ sylvanaerie

 

Really nice post, except that you pulled the execution bit out of thin air. That seems to go in the same direction as the popular 'to spare or not to spare' formulation which implicitly assumes a right to execution.

 

I'm not saying that "I felt like it, and I knew that I would get away with it" is not a valid reason. It is. But it's not a very interesting one, and it puts you in the same class as Bhelen and Howe. And Duncan, for that matter.
 

The question is whether there is sufficient reason so that a lawful good - or reasonably decent/grey - character would be justified in killing Loghain, or even compelled to do so. Because of the egregiousness of Loghain's crimes versus the likelihood that he would escape justice. As I said elsewhere, I think the elves do meet that criterion. But I am not certain who else would.

 

I'm not 'pulling it out of thin air', I'm giving a reason WHY it's the expected outcome of the Landsmeet.  This isn't a social gathering, it's a trial.  The punishment for the accused is death, it's what Loghain expects should he lose, and it's what a PC should expect for losing.  My character isn't doing it 'because I felt like it and I know I can get away with it'.  My PC does it because that's the only option (aside from giving Loghain a 'free pass' excuse for his actions--which in my mind is what conscripting him is) because the game pigeon-holes me into it.  If I had the option I'd put his ass in the tower to await a headsman's axe or whatever is decided as his punishment.  I don't like executing him in front of his daughter, but I do admit she is the ONLY reason I don't like the way it's played out. 

[DarthGizka]

I'm not 'pulling it out of thin air', I'm giving a reason WHY it's the expected outcome of the Landsmeet.  This isn't a social gathering, it's a trial.  The punishment for the accused is death, it's what Loghain expects should he lose, and it's what a PC should expect for losing.

 

Head canon, thin air. Same thing.

[Cobra's_back]

@ sylvanaerie

 

Really nice post, except that you pulled the execution bit out of thin air. That seems to go in the same direction as the popular 'to spare or not to spare' formulation which implicitly assumes a right to execution.

 

I'm not saying that "I felt like it, and I knew that I would get away with it" is not a valid reason. It is. But it's not a very interesting one, and it puts you in the same class as Bhelen and Howe. And Duncan, for that matter.
 

The question is whether there is sufficient reason so that a lawful good - or reasonably decent/grey - character would be justified in killing Loghain, or even compelled to do so. Because of the egregiousness of Loghain's crimes versus the likelihood that he would escape justice. As I said elsewhere, I think the elves do meet that criterion. But I am not certain who else would.

 

According to their own laws I can charge him with several offensives. Because of those offenses I do fill justified. Why should he be above the law?

 

Jowan's girlfriend goes to jail for helping a blood mage. Why should Loghain be above that law? 

 

The deserter is going to get hanged but Loghain gets away with it. Why? It was already proven that Loghain sent back the 200 warden and their soldiers with a nasty letter to the Empress.

 

Nobles do not have control over the actions of the Templar's. Kidnap and imprisonment of a Templar is against Ferelden's laws

 

Attempted murder with poisoning. Funny Jowan is going to pay for this.

 

Slavery is forbidden. Again some people want a pass on this.

 

We are clearly talking about double standards. It is no wonder that societies get fed up and overthrow their governments. 

 

I don't in any shape or form feel sorry for him and would hit him with all the charges. 

[sylvanaerie]

Head canon, thin air. Same thing.

 

It's NOT 'head canon'.  If you lose Loghain calls for your execution.  Have you never lost at the Landsmeet before?

[Jaison1986]

I love the 'Howe was the one who did it' arguments for the sheer volley of stupidity being dredged up.  First of all, the scene where Zevran is hired, (which btw the PLAYER NOT THE WARDEN sees) Howe is merely the messenger, coming in with Zevran.  It's Loghain who gives the order, it's Loghain Zevran says hires him (later when you interrogate him) and it's Loghain who would be paying the bill for said assassination (which I don't imagine was cheap, also prompting more slavery crackdown by Loghain).  It's Loghain, not Howe, who wastes resources fighting with his fellow nobles instead of just admitting he was wrong to usurp Anora's throne and stepping down.  Pretty sure the more loyal nobles who were just opposing him (versus those who were grabbing for what land/power they could in the chaos) would have gotten behind Anora and helped.  In fact, in that conversation Howe advises him to stop fighting with his fellow countrymen and start going after the darkspawn but the "greatest general in Ferelden" (read:Idiot) insists he can do it all by himself.  Caladrius mentions Loghain BY NAME when he's trying to bargain with the warden, saying he knows you because you are all Loghain talks about.  Loghain's was the name signed on the dispensation papers letting them come in to take men, women and children into slavery (to blood mages).  Regardless of second class citizen status, elves were citizens of Ferelden too, Loghain just picked them because he thought no one would care.  Mentioning it won't give as many points as talking about Eamon's poisoning, but none of the nobles thought selling elves into slavery was a 'good idea'.

 

I hate Loghain, and that hasn't faded at all in the years since I first started playing this game.  He's an idiot, a traitor, and a slaver and I don't see any sign of repentance or regret at the conversation with him in Denerim with Eamon and at the Landsmeet (the only time the warden can truly see and confront him in game).  Without metagaming or some creative roleplaying (which I can see happening), Loghain's crimes deserve death (or at least life imprisonment).  The game however pigeon-holes you into killing or sparing him.

 

The level of stupid of Riordan cannot be expressed either.  Seriously, in ALL of Ferelden ONLY Loghain is available for the Joining?  WTF is the point of the 'rite of conscription' if it allows you to recruit only ONE person in all that time, a person who, up to now has been trying to kill you.

 

And killing Loghain isn't 'murder'.  It's a rightful execution.  The Landsmeet is a TRIAL for his crimes.  The PC is on trial (since Loghain is trying to prove you are in cahoots with Orlais for killing the king).  One of you must win, the other will be executed for his crimes.  The free for all that ensues is Loghain trying to stage a coup if he loses, Eamon doing the same if the PC loses.  The duel called for is "trial by combat" in which might makes right and the victor is claimed the winner of the Landsmeet.  Once you trounce Loghain (or if you are beaten and it's game over) the loser expects to be executed for his/her crimes.  That's how it goes.  Even Anora expresses regret it came to that point, but she doesn't hold it against the PC for what was done.

 

So, off with his head every time in my games and aside from doing right in front of Anora, I have no qualms with it.

 

Erm, that's not exactly true. Howe came up with the assassins idea himself. He says to Loghain: "I have arrenged for a solution... with your leave". And you can see from Loghain reaction that he doesn't seem too happy about the idea (maybe he finds it a cheap way to deal with an enemy?),  but he doesn't have much choice. Is either that or wait for the warden to make a move at him. Who would allow that?

[DarthGizka]

If you lose Loghain calls for your execution.  Have you never lost at the Landsmeet before?

 

Why would I do something like that? In any case, Loghain doing something does not exactly guarantee that it must be lawful or expected, does it.

 

Wiki:

 

The Landsmeet is a council of the Fereldan noble class which has been held annually for almost three thousand years^[1], only occasionally interrupted by war or foreign occupation. It brought together all the fractured Alamarri tribes and after the unification of the kingdom, it functions as the official legislative body for Ferelden, and can override the king or queen on any matter of law. However its members tend not to exercise this privilege if the king is particularly popular or powerful.^[2] During the Landsmeet the current monarch is expected to mingle with and curry favour from their vassals.

 

So much for the Landsmeet as trial with expected capital sentence.

[sylvanaerie]

But it's THERE in the game, it's expected.  It's not just 'head canon'.  And it's possible to lose at the Landsmeet (vote) and win in the duel against Loghain, (since losing the duel means "game over"--your character dies).  

Just because you disagree (or haven't seen it) doesn't mean it's not a part of the game, and all in my imagination.

 

@Jaison1986

 

If Zevran were Howe's idea alone, he'd have just hired him, but he gets the go-ahead from Loghain.  And i saw nothing of 'regret' that scene from Loghain, only cold pragmatism.  And it's not the WARDEN seeing the scene, it's the PLAYER.  Zevran tells you his employer was Loghain, something Loghain himself won't dispute in a later banter with Zev.

[sylvanaerie]

Why would I do something like that? In any case, Loghain doing something does not exactly guarantee that it must be lawful or expected, does it.

 

Wiki:

 

The Landsmeet is a council of the Fereldan noble class which has been held annually for almost three thousand years^[1], only occasionally interrupted by war or foreign occupation. It brought together all the fractured Alamarri tribes and after the unification of the kingdom, it functions as the official legislative body for Ferelden, and can override the king or queen on any matter of law. However its members tend not to exercise this privilege if the king is particularly popular or powerful.^[2] During the Landsmeet the current monarch is expected to mingle with and curry favour from their vassals.

 

So much for the Landsmeet as trial with expected capital sentence.

 

 

Do you not understand what "Legislative" means?  It's not 'just in my imagination'.

 

If execution was 'unlawful', they could override this, and imprison him.  If they did that I'd be fine with it, I don't like executing him in front of his daughter, but they don't.  They just call for the "trial by combat".  His fate is pigeon-holed afterward.  Either execution or a slap on the wrist.

 

Maybe you feel his crimes aren't deserving of execution.  Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, that's up to each individual player, but I sure as hell don't want a man who's spent the entire game slandering and trying to kill me at my back in the middle of a fight.

[Jaison1986]

I think it's just poor storytelling. It's odd how people at the landsmeet have a say about everything, voting against Loghain or the Warden, and then giving the terms of the duel, and yet once Loghain is defeated they just stay quiet. One would think they would give some insight about what should be done once the losing party yields. Imprisionment? Execution? Just say something, damnit!

 

There are good reasons to either spare or kill Loghain. I just wonder what players would do if the dark ritual plot never existed. Would they be willing to either die or sacrifice Alistair instead? 

[DarthGizka]

Do you not understand what "Legislative" means?  It's not 'just in my imagination'.

As opposed to 'judicative'/judiciary? So far you have failed to demonstrate that the Landsmeet granted a free pass on murder to anyone.

 

If execution was 'unlawful', they could override this, and imprison him.

You mean stitch Loghain's head back on after Alistair went Bhelen on him? You're not making sense.

[sylvanaerie]

As opposed to 'judicative'/judiciary? So far you have failed to demonstrate that the Landsmeet granted a free pass on murder to anyone.

 

You mean stitch Loghain's head back on after Alistair went Bhelen on him? You're not making sense.

 

 

Wasn't talking about the "Alistair duels him" option.  In that instance it's too late to decide anything (one of the instances the game pigeon-holes you).  I'm referring to when the PC does the duel and you have the whole "Riordan gives his speech".  Plenty of time to interject with "Hey, don't kill him, we'll lock him away".  As i said, at that point the game pigeon-holes you.

 

And Legislative can override Judiciary.  Just because they don't often do so doesn't mean they don't have the option (unless the deed is already done).

[sylvanaerie]

I think it's just poor storytelling. It's odd how people at the landsmeet have a say about everything, voting against Loghain or the Warden, and then giving the terms of the duel, and yet once Loghain is defeated they just stay quiet. One would think they would give some insight about what should be done once the losing party yields. Imprisionment? Execution? Just say something, damnit!

 

There are good reasons to either spare or kill Loghain. I just wonder what players would do if the dark ritual plot never existed. Would they be willing to either die or sacrifice Alistair instead? 

 

Depends on my PC.  Dark Ritual knowledge or fate of the one who slays the Archdemon plays little into it.  The one game I played with Loghain spared I did all three endings to see new stuff.  Yea, not really an RP shining moment, but I don't play RP sometimes, especially if I want to get to new scenes.

 

My Cousland (a male rogue) kind of hero-worshipped Loghain prior to the events of the game, and when he lost Bryce it traumatized him so badly that I was able to play out the Landsmeet with a "he didn't want to execute a man right in front of his daughter".  So, I lost Alistair instead (he went off to be a drunk) and I wanted to see 

 

1) the US with Anora's eulogy

2) Loghain's commentary at the end (had him do the ritual with Morrigan)

3) Loghain doing the final blow and dying.

 

Some really weird **** happened that game.  I hadn't gone back to the camp after the events in Redcliffe with Connor and after getting Loghain at the Landsmeet, had to go back and use some mods to shift his stats around some (seriously bioware 40 willpower on a warrior?  WTF) and give him some decent gear.  It creeped me out to hear Alistair speaking out of Loghain's 'spot' about how happy he was that i was able to resolve the problem in Redcliffe with Eamon's family intact (I went the Circle route, reasoning I didn't want Connor to lose his mother--again playing to that 'trauma' my Cousland experienced).

 

And I agree that some of it is just poor storytelling.  Everything after the Landsmeet in the game is a minefield of poor storytelling/plot flag bugs.  The Landsmeet itself is a case of everyone on their worst behavior, but at least some of that is interesting storytelling, and some of it just so many levels of stupid I can't express, all in the same time period of the game.

[Mike3207]

On the subject of only one Warden for the Joining, Riordan tells you there's only enough Archdemon blood for one more Joining. They weren't able to find the Denerim supply of Archdemon blood, and the given reason is that they think Loghain hid or destroyed it.

 

My guess is that Loghain was not even involved, Howe found it and sent it to Amaranthine at that fort.

[Milan92]

On my very first playthrough I killed Loghain. It was only after 3 or more playthroughs that I tried to understand his character and reasons beter. Now days its always a bit of a tough decision for me. I love Alistair and I always hate it when you lose him if you let Loghain live. But I don't dislike Loghain either and I always enjoy him as a companion as well. 

 

Why can't I play the Tony Stark "Is it too much to ask for both" card! 

[Aurelet]

On the subject of only one Warden for the Joining, Riordan tells you there's only enough Archdemon blood for one more Joining. They weren't able to find the Denerim supply of Archdemon blood, and the given reason is that they think Loghain hid or destroyed it.

 

My guess is that Loghain was not even involved, Howe found it and sent it to Amaranthine at that fort.

Actually it was probably Loghain.  He is the one who hated and didn't trust the Wardens.

[Xetykins]

So recruit sgr. Kailon or however you spell his name. Cuz in the game he was much useful than Loghain. Or that knight in redcliff. Why does it have to be Loghain when there are people out there who are better candidates than what we've seen of King Loghain in the game.

[Xetykins]

And nobody pull out this hero of river dane business either , or I will go drown your goldfish!