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[Merle McClure II]

Punishing failure with death sounds very ... Qun to me.       

[Gabdube]

The worst punishment for Loghain isn't death; he was more than willing to put his own life on the line for what he was certain was the right thing to do for his homeland.

But giving him a chance to redeem himself through the heroic sacrifice of ending the blight is also more of a reward than a punishment for him.

No, the best thing to do with Loghain is to spare him and conscript him in the Grey Wardens, he'll be stationed in Orlais, under the command of orlesians, and in freakin Montsimmard of all places.

He then can also be denied a second chance at a heroic sacrifice in DA:I.

Failing to die for your country, twice, is pretty much the worst outcome for a hyperpatriotic antihero like Loghain.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Punishing failure with death sounds very ... Qun to me.       

So you'd think, but Sten actually approves of weaponizing Loghain. (Though he does make plain that he doesn't approve of Loghain's retreat. When Loghain responds to this by asking if Qunari soldiers ever retreat Sten says "We never need to.")

[Merle McClure II]

True, but considering the other examples we've seen of the Qun in action I tend to shrug that off as mostly being Sten's opinion  ... after all no-one tries to explain why Sigorn and Oghain disagree on whether or not to keep the Architect alive.

 

 

Still, with that said I could see the Qun treating Loghain as a Warrior who failed to be true to his nature by attempting to rule, "Wardening" him returns him to balance and all is right again. --- I don't remember exactly how the hierarchy of punishment for "not being true to oneself" (Women fighting / Bakers deciding to sew, Warriors trying to rule, ect...) is under the Qun.

[sylvanaerie]

True, but considering the other examples we've seen of the Qun in action I tend to shrug that off as mostly being Sten's opinion  ... after all no-one tries to explain why Sigorn and Oghain disagree on whether or not to keep the Architect alive.

 

 

Still, with that said I could see the Qun treating Loghain as a Warrior who failed to be true to his nature by attempting to rule, "Wardening" him returns him to balance and all is right again. --- I don't remember exactly how the hierarchy of punishment for "not being true to oneself" (Women fighting / Bakers deciding to sew, Warriors trying to rule, ect...) is under the Qun.

Reeducation or death according to Iron Bull.

Spoiler

And as it turns out, Sten's assessment is an 'oversimplified' version of the Qun (probably all he felt the Warden would be able to comprehend).  Tamassran's determine where a child will go in the society, by aptitude and interest.  Bull got his by liking to hit things, and hitting them well.  When it proved he could also think/lead as well, he was assigned not just to be a warrior but to be a Ben Hassrath (sp).

[Spooky81]

What makes this interesting for a human noble origin is that Arl Howe probably wouldn't have done what he did to the Couslands unless he was positive Loghain had his back and there was no chance that King Cailan would bring down the wrath of the Ferelden army upon him.  Does that reinforce the thought that Loghain planned on leaving Cailan to die and that Arl Howe knew this and took advantage of the opportunity to sack Highever?

[Gabdube]

What makes this interesting for a human noble origin is that Arl Howe probably wouldn't have done what he did to the Couslands unless he was positive Loghain had his back and there was no chance that King Cailan would bring down the wrath of the Ferelden army upon him.  Does that reinforce the thought that Loghain planned on leaving Cailan to die and that Arl Howe knew this and took advantage of the opportunity to sack Highever?

 

"Officially", the Couslands were stripped of Highever by the regency for supposedly colluding with Orlais. Howe lied to Loghain and even to his own men about the assault on Highever castle. To the eyes of many noble families, Arl Howe legitimately took Highever from his own lord in a heroic display of greater loyalty to the King.

You see, the Couslands kinda have a history with "regicide conspiracies" involving Grey Wardens... They also had a bit of a conflict of interest in the pre-Ostagar political situation. They were always outspoken allies of the Grey Wardens, who were seen as little more than an orlesian-sponsored private military organization as far as pre-Blight Ferelden is concerned. Post-Ostagar, the wardens altogether are accused of regicide, treason and conspiring with the enemy (Orlais). It just so happens that, should the Theirin line "accidentally" die out, the Wardens' best buddies, the Couslands, are the only noble family that could arguably have a better claim to the throne of Ferelden than the Queen herself (who isn't even of noble blood).

For some reason, most players didn't get that the people of Ferelden actually had legitimate reasons to believe Howe's story and Loghain's paranoïa over the personal testimonies of two freshly-joined Grey Wardens who suddenly show up after their entire forces are slaughtered along with that one King who happened to lack a rightful heir...
And those two wardens just happen to be, respectively, the first and second in line for the now-empty throne. So, in all seriousness, they go and ask a king-less, blighted nation on the brink of civil war (and who blames them personally for pretty much everything) to condemn their greatest living hero and general as a the "real" traitor to the realm; only to put a Grey Warden on the throne instead: either the easily-coerced spineless royal bastard or the (potential) heir to the second highest noble house in the land, whose ancestors had already tried to usurp the throne a couple of times in the past.
 

And I guess nobody noticed the whole army of highly-trained chevaliers litterally just chilling at the Frostback border along with a bunch of orlesian wardens who are honestly just waiting for the permission to charge in as "necessary reinforcements" for ferelden's crippled military. Orlais probably didn't have "Invading Ferelden" as its first priority, but nobody in their right mind would have wanted to let the blight spread out of Ferelden. Loghain wasn't hallucinating those chevaliers.

As for Howe facing Cailan's fist of justice, he didn't plan on a Duncan being present to save Cousland junior's butt. Duncan litterally says to Cailan at Ostagar that, "had [they] not escaped, [Howe] would have told you any story he wished". Howe likely did not plan on Cailan dying, I'd bet he was even expecting the king to reward him for his "actions".

If I remember well, while letting Cailan die "for the good of Ferelden" was not entirely out of the picture for Loghain, it was still a last-minute decision. Being on the front lines was Cailan's demand, not Loghain's suggestion. He explicitly advised against it, because his stupid king had effectively decided to play darkspawn-bait instead of leading the flank attack with Loghain's heavy infantry. Cailan had to order his most briliant tactician, general and father-in-law to let him gamble his own life along with the future of Maric's lineage. At that point, there wasn't much that Loghain could have done to ensure Cailan's survival, except charging the flank early and sacrificing hundreds of good men just to allow the foolish king's retreat, probably costing them the battle and many others to come. And that is assuming Cailan wasn't enough of a fool to refuse to retreat, keep fighting and end up dead anyway.

Also, Loghain probably would have just followed the original battle plan (regardless of what would happen to Cailan) if the lighting of the Beacon hadn't been delayed because of Darkspawn suddenly taking the whole Tower of Ishal  from out of nowhere (which was likely proof enough of an archdemon directing the attack). Judging that the battle was already lost, as the darkspawn had broken their defense lines and the flanking opportunity was wasted, Loghain saw the opportunity to retreat and keep his forces intact. So, he left both the wardens and the king's men to die, and he decided to frame the wardens for everything because :
1) he thought that they were just unnecessary foreign meddling in fereldan affairs;
2) the wardens' presence didn't help Cailan's delusions of heroic battle tales, which eventually led to him putting his life in danger for glory;
3) He was suspicious of the wardens for wanting to reestablish the order in Ferelden, such that the Orlesians could use the wardens against Ferelden, wether the wardens realize it of not;
4) he wanted to preserve Cailan's memory so that, in death, he could serve as a rallying symbol, a heroic martyr for Ferelden, rather than being remembered as the naïve man-child he truly was;
5) Loghain needed to blame someone else, ideally a group of mistrusted outsiders, for the horrible defeat at Ostagar in order to paint himself as an able and reliable leader grab a hold of the political and military power, as he thought he was the only one who could gather ferelden's strenght and eliminate the "real" threats to the kingdom.

[Merle McClure II]

Excellent points, but you are forgetting the rather damning fact that Loghain had ordered Eamon's poisoning BEFORE Ostagar so it's clear that he had something planned for a lot longer then the pro-Loghain side wants to believe.

 

 

And it's true that Duncan did believe that Howe could have lied his way out the Highever Slaughter (Awakening does make it clear that Howe's men were not totally in the dark about what was going on, but their silence was being secured by "whatever means are necessary".) but when he said that he had no idea that Loghain had already moved against Eamon who was probably the second most troublesome rival.

 

 

Oh, then there's the little problem that even if we believe Howe and Loghain struck against Loghain's most powerful political rivals at the same time separately, without Loghain's support then Howe still doesn't get his reward as Highever rightfully passes onto Fergus who Howe KNEW had already left the castle.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Excellent points, but you are forgetting the rather damning fact that Loghain had ordered Eamon's poisoning BEFORE Ostagar so it's clear that he had something planned for a lot longer then the pro-Loghain side wants to believe.

 

 

And it's true that Duncan did believe that Howe could have lied his way out the Highever Slaughter (Awakening does make it clear that Howe's men were not totally in the dark about what was going on, but their silence was being secured by "whatever means are necessary".) but when he said that he had no idea that Loghain had already moved against Eamon who was probably the second most troublesome rival.

 

 

Oh, then there's the little problem that even if we believe Howe and Loghain struck against Loghain's most powerful political rivals at the same time separately, without Loghain's support then Howe still doesn't get his reward as Highever rightfully passes onto Fergus who Howe KNEW had already left the castle.

The explanation from Gaider is that Loghain was planning to have a political battle with Cailan over something (Loghain wasn't sure what, not sure how that makes any sense) and drugged Eamon with something to get him out of the way for as long as was needed. As for Fergus, as I'd previously noted that isn't all that hard to get around if Howe plants someone in Fergus's army. Which he may have done, considering that if memory serves Fergus sits out the battle due to having been stabbed before the battle.

[Merle McClure II]

Yeah, I think that it's rather telling when even people who seemingly support "Loghain according to Gaider"  (If I've misread your position on these threads then please by all means correct me.) are left scratching their heads trying to figure out how it actually makes sense for Loghain to POSION Eamon ... "just a little" but NOT give the spy the antidote "just in case". --- I mean, seriously, the more I think about Gaider's "explanation" I'm left wondering if he actually played the final game or whether he was working off of an old draft of the storyline that got changed by the people who actually wrote Loghain in Origins. (As it's my understanding that Loghain was written by someone other than Gaider.)

 

 

As for the theory that Howe tried to Crow Fergus ... yeah, it's a decent theory and even fits with Howe's character as well as having a hint of tie-in with Awakening, but considering that the primary argument that the pro-Loghain crowd makes is that Howe & Loghain couldn't be working together because the writers didn't beat the player over the head with it every five seconds (A fact that I actually dispute as I think that the entirely of the game counts as a "head beat".) I do have to point out that Fergus was out scouting in The Wilds before the battle and I'm pretty sure that he'd say something if his men were ambushed and killed by Howe's men as opposed to Darkspawn.    

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yeah, I think that it's rather telling when even people who seemingly support "Loghain according to Gaider"  (If I've misread your position on these threads then please by all means correct me.) are left scratching their heads trying to figure out how it actually makes sense for Loghain to POSION Eamon ... "just a little" but NOT give the spy the antidote "just in case". --- I mean, seriously, the more I think about Gaider's "explanation" I'm left wondering if he actually played the final game or whether he was working off of an old draft of the storyline that got changed by the people who actually wrote Loghain in Origins. (As it's my understanding that Loghain was written by someone other than Gaider.)

 

 

As for the theory that Howe tried to Crow Fergus ... yeah, it's a decent theory and even fits with Howe's character as well as having a hint of tie-in with Awakening, but considering that the primary argument that the pro-Loghain crowd makes is that Howe & Loghain couldn't be working together because the writers didn't beat the player over the head with it every five seconds (A fact that I actually dispute as I think that the entirely of the game counts as a "head beat".) I do have to point out that Fergus was out scouting in The Wilds before the battle and I'm pretty sure that he'd say something if his men were ambushed and killed by Howe's men as opposed to Darkspawn.    

Actually, that Jowan didn't have the antidote is the least stupid part of this plan, regardless of whether or not you accept Gaider's word on why it happened. If he had it, it would have been taken from him and used. You seem to have read the explanation, so all I'm going to say about it is that if you want Eamon out of the way (for any reason, or as Gaider seems to believe for no reason at all) and mildly prefer his life to his death this isn't the single dumbest thing you can do.

 

As for Fergus, it's possible in a really seriously chaotic fight (like a darkspawn ambush) to not see who stabbed you. If I wanted a noble who was about to go into a fight dead, I'd see if I couldn't put a few assassins who didn't know of the others' presence into his army and tell each of them to gank him in the middle of a fight. They might even get away with it. If they weren't among the majority of Fergus's men who were killed in the fight that he was injured in, of course. Though whether or not Howe actually did this I don't think we can know. (I think I recall Cousland's mother having worried that Howe might think this far ahead, though.)

[Merle McClure II]

Well, naturally you wouldn't give Jowan the cure, you'd give the cure to the spy that is apparently tasked with keeping an eye on Jowan. (You know, the guy in the tavern that you can guilt into abandoning his mission and helping rescue the town ... I don't remember his name, think he might have been an elf.) --- As for Gaidar's actual words, although I've read several of his other senseless retcons as well as a bunch of his Dragon Age II posts where he was defending himself for some of the "differences" between the two games I'm having to rely on what the forumites have to say on this issue ... Thankfully, the gest of Gaidar's Loghain explanation is one of the few things that both the pro & anti Loghain crowds agree on ... the other is that there was a battle at a place called Ostagar where everyone held hands around a campfire and sung songs with the Darkspawn.      

 

  

 

 

As for Fergus, well, like I said, I like the theory for several reasons, but I can't quite convince myself of it's validity.  I'll have to force myself to replay the Noble Human Origin (A pox on the writers for actually making me care about Warden Coustland's family in the few minutes you get to interact with them before seeing their lifeless bodies and your poor mother break down in the room.) because I don't remember that dialog.  

[Gabdube]

Yeah, I think that it's rather telling when even people who seemingly support "Loghain according to Gaider"  (If I've misread your position on these threads then please by all means correct me.) are left scratching their heads trying to figure out how it actually makes sense for Loghain to POSION Eamon ... "just a little" but NOT give the spy the antidote "just in case". --- I mean, seriously, the more I think about Gaider's "explanation" I'm left wondering if he actually played the final game or whether he was working off of an old draft of the storyline that got changed by the people who actually wrote Loghain in Origins. (As it's my understanding that Loghain was written by someone other than Gaider.)

 

 

As for the theory that Howe tried to Crow Fergus ... yeah, it's a decent theory and even fits with Howe's character as well as having a hint of tie-in with Awakening, but considering that the primary argument that the pro-Loghain crowd makes is that Howe & Loghain couldn't be working together because the writers didn't beat the player over the head with it every five seconds (A fact that I actually dispute as I think that the entirely of the game counts as a "head beat".) I do have to point out that Fergus was out scouting in The Wilds before the battle and I'm pretty sure that he'd say something if his men were ambushed and killed by Howe's men as opposed to Darkspawn.    

Loghain ordered Eamon poisoned, not killed. As far as we know, the life-threatening situation of Eamon's illness might just be due to Jowan's incompetence, not Loghain's intention.

And Howe didn't need to have Fergus killed, because Fergus wasn't even in Highever during the attack and thus didn't witness his treason. It would simply be Howe's word against Fergus's; Howe is a decorated hero of the war against orlais and who sincerely wants Ferelden to be independent, while Fergus' family admires the wardens and visits the orlesian court every once in a while. Fergus was also married to the daughter of an influential Antivan businessman, not a noble.

Anyway, Howe's plan was to have the regency grant him Highever legitimately, he didn't simply take over the whole teyrnir by force. As such, Howe did not need to have the whole Cousland line killed (even if he undoubtedly wanted to do it), he only needed to kill the "traitor" Bryce (and all the witnesses). Keeping one Cousland heir alive might actually help support Howe's claim to the regency, precisely because he could have gotten him killed if he wanted to.

[Aren]

I STAND BY   LOGHAIN we have no hope of victory otherwise!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Aren]

Loghain sacrificing himself is my least favorite fate for him. I'm in the group that does think his actions at Ostagar are abhorrent, and for that matter not as tactically brilliant as he and his fans believe. I don't want him hero-worshipped throughout Ferelden. 

 

My favorite fate is him living out a grueling but useful existence as a Grey Warden while my Warden makes the sacrifice. That one satisfies me. 

yes but eventually he can become an hero again in Inquisition after 10 years of  atonement and sorrow,   Loghain can be a triple hero.....

[Merle McClure II]

Gabdude, if you can find anything that actually appears in the game itself that suggests Loghain ordering Eamon poisoned wasn't meant to be fatal I'd really love to hear about it. --- Oh, and maybe while you are at it you can find some reasoning behind Loghain ordering said poisoning that doesn't make Loghain look either silly or crazy ... or both.

 

 

 

As for Howe's plan, you know I actually tend to agree with the way you laid out Howe's "end game"; but the problem once again is that without Loghain seizing the throne, the Coustlands, even weakened by Bryce's death aren't going to be stripped of their titles ... Howe needs Loghain's authority to actually gain anything for the rather big risk he took.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Well, naturally you wouldn't give Jowan the cure, you'd give the cure to the spy that is apparently tasked with keeping an eye on Jowan. (You know, the guy in the tavern that you can guilt into abandoning his mission and helping rescue the town ... I don't remember his name, think he might have been an elf.) 

Berwick. And yes, he's an elf. He's also fairly easy to turn and really defensive before you do so: I'd guess that he's pieced together what happened and feels guilty for working for the people responsible. If he knew what was going on and it was within his power to fix, I think he'd do so. As I said, Gaider makes clear that Loghain prioritizes Eamon's inability to interfere over Eamon's survival.

[Merle McClure II]

You see I could almost buy the argument that Loghain was merely indifferent to Eamon's survival if it wasn't for the fact that the only way to cure him was to find Theda's Holy Grail, something that Loghain clearly did not have access to. Using poison on someone who you don't want dead that requires divine intervention to survive doesn't make any more sense then Loghain supposedly ordering said poison for .... What reason exactly?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

You see I could almost buy the argument that Loghain was merely indifferent to Eamon's survival if it wasn't for the fact that the only way to cure him was to find Theda's Holy Grail, something that Loghain clearly did not have access to. Using poison on someone who you don't want dead that requires divine intervention to survive doesn't make any more sense then Loghain supposedly ordering said poison for .... What reason exactly?

I'd been more under the impression that the Holy Grail was needed to cure the demon's influence, not Loghain's.

[Merle McClure II]

Interesting, what gave you that impression out of curiosity?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Interesting, what gave you that impression out of curiosity?

The illusionary demons from the Fade sequence gave me the impression that Eamon not waking was intended, since they heavily implied he was being kept out of the way so that Connor would technically be in charge. (Despite the fact that he was just a boy. For her to misunderstand how authority works so nearly completely makes perfect sense when you consider the lore on how demons try to imitate humanity without understanding a tiny bit of what they're aping.)

[Merle McClure II]

You do have a point there ... hmm, I'll have to think on this for a bit.

[gay_wardens]

I can't remember if you need him to get the Champion specialization, but if you do, it's well worth it.

 

Anyway I'm on the fence. In one playthrough I felt sort of a brotherly bond with Alistair so I killed Loghain, in another I was sick of Alistair whining and I wanted to try playing as Loghain.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I can't remember if you need him to get the Champion specialization, but if you do, it's well worth it.

You don't. In fact I don't think he even teaches his specialization.

[sylvanaerie]

I can't remember if you need him to get the Champion specialization, but if you do, it's well worth it.

 

Anyway I'm on the fence. In one playthrough I felt sort of a brotherly bond with Alistair so I killed Loghain, in another I was sick of Alistair whining and I wanted to try playing as Loghain.

You get Champion from doing the Redcliffe quest line, once Eamon wakes up he makes a pronouncement that you and your companions are now 'champions of Redcliffe' and gifts you with a shield bearing the Redcliffe standard which unlocks the spec at that point.