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[Gambit458]

I always kill Loghain because the man just never really seems to show remorse in the things he did. He showed no signs that he cared about leaving Calian(or however his name was spelled) to die, resorted to under handed tactics like poisoning Eamon, hiring assassins, and spread lies about the Grey Wardens. Loghain seemed like the type who'd fight dirty just to win the throne. I'd spare Loghain if we didn't have to lose Alistair but otherwise I just can't do it. Loghain was a fool who let his love for his land cloud his judgement. I mean really, how did he expect to defeat the Blight without Grey Wardens? 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I mean really, how did he expect to defeat the Blight without Grey Wardens? 

The same way he defeated the Orlesians. Seriously, when you assess how foolish Loghain was being you need to weigh the fact that the only cast-iron reason the Blight can't be defeated without Wardens is a secret Loghain didn't know and can't reasonably be expected to know. You don't need to let it change your mind as to whether he lives or dies, but you do need to be aware that Loghain's belief the Grey Wardens weren't literally necessary was reasonable in the context of what he knew.

[Monica21]

The same way he defeated the Orlesians. Seriously, when you assess how foolish Loghain was being you need to weigh the fact that the only cast-iron reason the Blight can't be defeated without Wardens is a secret Loghain didn't know and can't reasonably be expected to know. You don't need to let it change your mind as to whether he lives or dies, but you do need to be aware that Loghain's belief the Grey Wardens weren't literally necessary was reasonable in the context of what he knew.

 

Also bear in mind that your own Warden has no idea why the Wardens are necessary, not just nice to have, and it makes the idea that Loghain should have known it all the more far-fetched.

[sylvanaerie]

While, yes, he has no way of knowing, there is also history.  4 other Blights in nearly a millenium of time demonstrate Grey Warden usefulness in ending blights.  The first Blight lasted almost a century only ending after the grey wardens were created.  The old adage about "learning from history or being doomed to repeat it" pretty much applies I think.  Yes, the mechanics aren't common knowledge but he wanted--needed--to be right that they aren't needed.  Any other option was inconceivable in his mind because it meant he left them all to die and hounded the last two in the country almost to death, nearly dooming Ferelden. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

While, yes, he has no way of knowing, there is also history.  4 other Blights in nearly a millenium of time demonstrate Grey Warden usefulness in ending blights.  The first Blight lasted almost a century only ending after the grey wardens were created.  The old adage about "learning from history or being doomed to repeat it" pretty much applies I think.  Yes, the mechanics aren't common knowledge but he wanted--needed--to be right that they aren't needed.  Any other option was inconceivable in his mind because it meant he left them all to die and hounded the last two in the country almost to death, nearly dooming Ferelden. 

Yes, that demonstrates the usefulness of those Wardens, which might lead one to suppose that the current Wardens would be useful. And now that Loghain tried and failed to do it without Wardens, and the Wardens spent more time taking down Loghain than actually taking down the Blight, their usefulness will be reinforced to the point that anyone who centuries later was going to prioritize the Wardens' help less than other considerations (such as the possibility of an occupying army following them) might reconsider. But anyone with a better army than Loghain's or some other major advantage he didn't have could still decide to do the same thing Loghain did unless they knew the entire story. (Which they probably won't.)

[Xetykins]

Yes, that demonstrates the usefulness of those Wardens, which might lead one to suppose that the current Wardens would be useful. And now that Loghain tried and failed to do it without Wardens, and the Wardens spent more time taking down Loghain than actually taking down the Blight, their usefulness will be reinforced to the point that anyone who centuries later was going to prioritize the Wardens' help less than other considerations (such as the possibility of an occupying army following them) might reconsider. But anyone with a better army than Loghain's or some other major advantage he didn't have could still decide to do the same thing Loghain did unless they knew the entire story. (Which they probably won't.)

Your wardens spent their time taking taking down loghain? O.o Well mine was rather busy gathering armies for the blight. Curing people with ashes, soldiering on the deep roads and putting rulers on the throne, getting stuck in that horrible circle tower urgh. And helping people affected by it. She had no time to think about loghain til the landsmeet.

But thats just my playthroughs :-)

/snark mode off. Soz in just really bored today.

[Merle McClure II]

I don't know, although I tend to agree that it's totally within Loghain's character to ignore history where it doesn't agree with his preconseptions, the fact that it was ALWAYS a Warden who ended a Blight coupled with the lessons that were learnt in the First Blight would seem to paint the Wardens as being more then "simply useful".

 

Still, you are probably right, history has shown time after time that people always believe that they are special and "this time will be different".

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Your wardens spent their time taking taking down loghain? O.o Well mine was rather busy gathering armies for the blight. Curing people with ashes, soldiering on the deep roads and putting rulers on the throne, getting stuck in that horrible circle tower urgh. And helping people affected by it. She had no time to think about loghain til the landsmeet.

But thats just my playthroughs :-)

/snark mode off. Soz in just really bored today.

While I agree that "spending more time dealing with Loghain than the Blight" was a bit of an exaggeration, what exactly do you call curing Eamon if not working towards getting Loghain out of your way?

 

 

I don't know, although I tend to agree that it's totally within Loghain's character to ignore history where it doesn't agree with his preconseptions, the fact that it was ALWAYS a Warden who ended a Blight coupled with the lessons that were learnt in the First Blight would seem to paint the Wardens as being more then "simply useful".

 

Still, you are probably right, history has shown time after time that people always believe that they are special and "this time will be different".

Yes, but again: except for the Archdemon's secret immortality ability, there's no cast-iron reason why any such person couldn't (theoretically, under the right circumstances) be right.

[Merle McClure II]

But is the Archdemon's immortality actually a secret? I'm pretty sure that I remember reading somewhere that the Archdemon was slain during the First Blight only to reappear again and again. --- Then again I suppose to a common soldier all Archdemons are going to look the same so, but if people thought that there were multiple archdemons that probably should have been mentioned as well.

 

 

---

 

Of course, although I tend to agree with keeping "The Warden's Secrets" in general, Duncan probably should have at least mentioned to Loghain and Calian that only a Warden could strike the death blow, but do you think Loghain would have believed it or seen it as a lie meant to glorify the Wardens further in Calian's eyes? 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

But is the Archdemon's immortality actually a secret? I'm pretty sure that I remember reading somewhere that the Archdemon was slain during the First Blight only to reappear again and again. --- Then again I suppose to a common soldier all Archdemons are going to look the same so, but if people thought that there were multiple archdemons that probably should have been mentioned as well.

 

 

---

 

Of course, although I tend to agree with keeping "The Warden's Secrets" in general, Duncan probably should have at least mentioned to Loghain and Calian that only a Warden could strike the death blow, but do you think Loghain would have believed it or seen it as a lie meant to glorify the Wardens further in Calian's eyes? 

The Tabletop seems to imply that there is some historical documentation of Dumat's return from seeming death, which makes most sense in the context of the Archdemon being immortal. The wiki doesn't say how much detail this source goes into, whether it contains the knowledge that the Wardens possess a counter for it, or whether or not anyone but the Wardens actually knows this history. I can tell you the US is a secret, since if memory serves Riordan notes to the PC that it's feared nobody would join the Wardens if this was widely known. (One of my favorite Dragon Age fanfics has Avernus cite this defense to the Cousland PC, to which she responds that anyone who wants to be a Warden isn't smart enough to be a good one. Hence the RoC.)

 

As for telling this secret to Loghain, he might very well have dismissed it, but he really really should have been given the opportunity to do so. Which he doesn't seem to have been, given that his reaction should he live to learn of it seems to be less "why didn't I believe it?" and more "I wish I'd known this sooner."

[Xetykins]

While I agree that "spending more time dealing with Loghain than the Blight" was a bit of an exaggeration, what exactly do you call curing Eamon if not working towards getting Loghain out of your way?.

thats one of the main 3 quests. And one of the thousand things i had to do for the blight. And i need the redcliff knights and soldiers as a part of the treaties. Thats hardly "more" time taking loghain down.

[Merle McClure II]

Yeah, I tend to agree that Loghain didn't know and probably should have been given the chance (I still think he would have rejected it but that's neither here or now.). As for the Ultimate Sacrifice being a necessary secret, considering that unless I'm misremembering the fact that the death of the hero Warden(s) that ended the Blights doesn't appear to have been hidden I'm almost wondering if the secret isn't the Warden dying but rather the destruction of the Warden's immortal soul. --- Hmm, when I get back to Riordan again I'll have to parse his words carefully.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yeah, I tend to agree that Loghain didn't know and probably should have been given the chance (I still think he would have rejected it but that's neither here or now.). As for the Ultimate Sacrifice being a necessary secret, considering that unless I'm misremembering the fact that the death of the hero Warden(s) that ended the Blights doesn't appear to have been hidden I'm almost wondering if the secret isn't the Warden dying but rather the destruction of the Warden's immortal soul. --- Hmm, when I get back to Riordan again I'll have to parse his words carefully.

That none of the Wardens have yet survived doesn't seem to have been hidden, since the deaths of all the Wardens who faced Dumat, the death of Garahel, and the death of the Warden who killed Toth are all apparently matters of public record. But I don't know that they need to hide that. There's ways to die killing an archdemon besides the process itself being fatal. In Garahel's case he chased the Archdemon into the sky on his griffin and the griffin died before he could have gotten back down even had he survived. And the entire party of Wardens who killed Dumat died in the process.

[Gabdube]

Yeah, I tend to agree that Loghain didn't know and probably should have been given the chance (I still think he would have rejected it but that's neither here or now.). As for the Ultimate Sacrifice being a necessary secret, considering that unless I'm misremembering the fact that the death of the hero Warden(s) that ended the Blights doesn't appear to have been hidden I'm almost wondering if the secret isn't the Warden dying but rather the destruction of the Warden's immortal soul. --- Hmm, when I get back to Riordan again I'll have to parse his words carefully.

 

That none of the Wardens have yet survived doesn't seem to have been hidden, since the deaths of all the Wardens who faced Dumat, the death of Garahel, and the death of the Warden who killed Toth are all apparently matters of public record. But I don't know that they need to hide that. There's ways to die killing an archdemon besides the process itself being fatal. In Garahel's case he chased the Archdemon into the sky on his griffin and the griffin died before he could have gotten back down even had he survived. And the entire party of Wardens who killed Dumat died in the process.

 

 

Yeah, it's simply common knowledge that wardens flying on griffons to go kill flying dragons would be putting their lives on the line.

1) Archdemons are dragons.
2) Dragons fly to stay out of danger.
3) You kill something in the air, it drops.
4) Wardens don't fly.

Theodosians just do the math and figure that killing an archdemon without a parachute is probably bad for your health.

[Gambit458]

The same way he defeated the Orlesians. Seriously, when you assess how foolish Loghain was being you need to weigh the fact that the only cast-iron reason the Blight can't be defeated without Wardens is a secret Loghain didn't know and can't reasonably be expected to know. You don't need to let it change your mind as to whether he lives or dies, but you do need to be aware that Loghain's belief the Grey Wardens weren't literally necessary was reasonable in the context of what he knew.

Actually if I recall, Duncan pretty much goes around telling you that wardens are needed to stop a blight. I'm replaying Origins now and it just got to the cutscene where Loghain denies that a Blight is even happening. He knew they were needed, he just brushed it off as fantasy and fairy tale. Everyone knew Wardens battle the Blight and that Blights are stopped by them. They just don't know how they actually defeat the Arch Demon. Loghain denied things when the proof was right there in front of his face. He even blames Cailan for his death when Anora asks him if he killed him. Loghain won't even fess up to his own crimes until after you decide to spare him

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Actually if I recall, Duncan pretty much goes around telling you that wardens are needed to stop a blight. I'm replaying Origins now and it just got to the cutscene where Loghain denies that a Blight is even happening. He knew they were needed, he just brushed it off as fantasy and fairy tale. Everyone knew Wardens battle the Blight and that Blights are stopped by them. They just don't know how they actually defeat the Arch Demon. Loghain denied things when the proof was right there in front of his face. He even blames Cailan for his death when Anora asks him if he killed him. Loghain won't even fess up to his own crimes until after you decide to spare him

Does it logically follow from Duncan saying something that it is literally true? Does it logically follow from one group doing a thing for centuries that no other group can do it? Loghain did not know they were needed. What he knew is that everyone said they were needed.

 

As for Cailan's death, Loghain did tell him to stay off the front-lines. Whether or not Loghain left him there maliciously, Cailan's life would have been much less in jeopardy if he'd taken Loghain's advice.

[dragonflight288]

@Gambit458

 

As far as Loghain, Cailan, and pretty much everyone who wasn't a Grey Warden was concerned, this was a large darkspawn raid and not a true blight because no one saw the archdemon, and Duncan is telling everyone it is a blight, but he isn't telling anyone why he thinks it is. Only a gut feeling. 

 

If I was a general and didn't know why the Grey Wardens thought it was a blight, and all my scouts reports told me that there is no sign of an archdemon, I would also be skeptical. 

 

It's not as if Duncan could tell them the truth AND keep his credibility. Kind of like what Shepard says in ME1  when asked by Anderson to report his vision to the Council. "What am I supposed to tell them? That I had a bad dream?"

 

Which is exactly how Duncan knew it was a blight, but no one knows about the Grey Wardens connection to the Taint other than that they are immune to it. But do you think for one moment that Cailan or Loghain would've been eager to take the word of Duncan if he approached them and said "I had a dream the archdemon was starting a blight in the Kokari Wilds. We must summon the armies and march." 

 

Any leader with any amount of critical thinking skills would scoff at that. Which is why for the dwarven noble origin, Duncan is in the Deep Roads to try and gather evidence that this is an actual blight. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Which is exactly how Duncan knew it was a blight, but no one knows about the Grey Wardens connection to the Taint other than that they are immune to it. But do you think for one moment that Cailan or Loghain would've been eager to take the word of Duncan if he approached them and said "I had a dream the archdemon was starting a blight in the Kokari Wilds. We must summon the armies and march." 

 

Any leader with any amount of critical thinking skills would scoff at that. Which is why for the dwarven noble origin, Duncan is in the Deep Roads to try and gather evidence that this is an actual blight. 

With a little more explanation, this would start to look plausible. Though it might be for the best to make sure there's no eavesdroppers. This doesn't start to look credible unless the Wardens make some pretty damning admissions. (Possibly literally damning, depending on which priest or Templar you ask.)

[dragonflight288]

With a little more explanation, this would start to look plausible. Though it might be for the best to make sure there's no eavesdroppers. This doesn't start to look credible unless the Wardens make some pretty damning admissions.

 

Which also includes admitting to the use of blood magic in the Joining ritual itself. 

 

Some nobles or monarchs may agree with this, but many will not, and if the Chantry found out they would throw a temper tantrum of colossal proportions. 

 

Some explanation would help sort things out immeasurably, but this kind of information could easily get them exiled out of each country, and if it doesn't, hurt their recruitment efforts considerably among a overwhelming Andrastian support base. 

 

There are some Warden secrets I think should be shared with heads of state, but if that information can get the order exiled, then it is probably better to play it safe and make sure there is a Warden presence in case of future blights. 

 

It's a delicate balancing act that must be done, and it changes based on country and monarch respectively. 

[Gambit458]

Does it logically follow from Duncan saying something that it is literally true? Does it logically follow from one group doing a thing for centuries that no other group can do it? Loghain did not know they were needed. What he knew is that everyone said they were needed.

 

As for Cailan's death, Loghain did tell him to stay off the front-lines. Whether or not Loghain left him there maliciously, Cailan's life would have been much less in jeopardy if he'd taken Loghain's advice.

Loghain knew, he simply denied it. Maybe you need to replay Origins again because everyone else pretty much took it into consideration that it could be a blight EXCEPT loghain. They wouldn't even be in that mess had Loghain taken Cailan's advice. Loghain didn't want to because, omgz, they might have had to ask Orlais for help. Apparently it's fine for everyone else to take Loghain's advice but not ok for him to take advice himself.  Everyone else knew the relevance of Grey Wardens in regards to Dark Spawn, as you pretty much take notice from with all the races you run into when taking the treaties, except Loghain because he wanted to brush them off as nonsense. Loghain was a steadfast fool who thought he could do it himself without any help. Had Alistair and the Grey Warden not been around, Ferelden would have fallen thanks to the Blight thanks to Loghain. 

 

Sure, the reason they didn't know was because the Arch Demon hadn't appeared, but there was no other logical explanation as to why the Dark Spawn were amassing unless it was another Blight. The dwarves even tell you that if it's not a Blight, then a majority of the dark spawn are usually plaguing the Deep Roads. Besides, Alistair and your Warden were the only ones to see the Arch Demon in their dream yet everyone seems to believe you when you tell them it's a Blight when you go look for allies. Nobody physically sees the Arch Demon, aside from your party since you see him in the Dead Trenches, until he shows up at Denerim.  They wouldn't scoff at it, Cailan wouldn't at least, because it was recorded in history about the Wardens helping to stop every Blight. That would be incredibly dumb of a general to not take the word of a man who represents the order that was known for stopping those crisis. The Mass Effect example isn't a good comparison because nobody knew who the Reapers were until Shepard tried to tell them. In Dragon Age on the other hand, everyone knows what a Blight, The Dark Spawn, and the Arch Demon are and that Grey Wardens have been involved every time they were defeated. Duncan wanted to gather evidence because nobody wants to accept that another Blight is coming. It's like hearing that bad news that makes your heart sink in your chest.  

[dragonflight288]

@ Gambit. 

 

A bit of dialogue straight from the game. 

 

Duncan: Your majesty, you should take into consideration the possibility of the archdemon appearing. 

Loghain: Our scouts have seen so sign of dragons in the wilds. 

 

****

 

Loghain: This is no true blight Anora, only Cailan's vanity demanded it be so. 

 

****

 

Loghain: Maric respected the Grey Wardens. They have an honored place in the hearts of our people, but Maric would've known it takes more than legends to win a battle. That's not an argument that I'll repeat here. 

 

 

Seems pretty clear to me that, until the landsmeet, Loghain did not actually think it was a blight at all. But he WAS taking them seriously, especially with this bit of dialogue.

 

Loghain: There are those who'll take advantage of our weakened state if we let them, we must defeat this darkspawn incursion, but we must do so sensibly and without hesitation. 

 

 

 

Logahin most certainly did not know it was a blight, merely a large darkspawn raid. And he WAS trying to keep Cailan off the front lines, and he wasn't going to charge into the battle to save one man, even the king, because that would require breaking his promise to Maric not to put any one man before the good of the whole kingdom, a promise Maric made Loghain swear to when he saved Maric's life, risking the whole of the army. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Loghain knew, he simply denied it. Maybe you need to replay Origins again because everyone else pretty much took it into consideration that it could be a blight EXCEPT loghain. They wouldn't even be in that mess had Loghain taken Cailan's advice. Loghain didn't want to because, omgz, they might have had to ask Orlais for help. Apparently it's fine for everyone else to take Loghain's advice but not ok for him to take advice himself.  Everyone else knew the relevance of Grey Wardens in regards to Dark Spawn, as you pretty much take notice from with all the races you run into when taking the treaties, except Loghain because he wanted to brush them off as nonsense. Loghain was a steadfast fool who thought he could do it himself without any help. Had Alistair and the Grey Warden not been around, Ferelden would have fallen thanks to the Blight thanks to Loghain.

I don't see how this refutes what I said. In fact unless I'm missing something the argument you replied to refutes the first two sentences and the second to last. Most of the rest of it is true, but none of this takes away from the fact that as far as Loghain had been given reason to believe, the Wardens weren't literally necessary.

[Gambit458]

@ Gambit. 

 

A bit of dialogue straight from the game. 

 

Duncan: Your majesty, you should take into consideration the possibility of the archdemon appearing. 

Loghain: Our scouts have seen so sign of dragons in the wilds. 

 

****

 

Loghain: This is no true blight Anora, only Cailan's vanity demanded it be so. 

 

****

 

Loghain: Maric respected the Grey Wardens. They have an honored place in the hearts of our people, but Maric would've known it takes more than legends to win a battle. That's not an argument that I'll repeat here. 

 

 

Seems pretty clear to me that, until the landsmeet, Loghain did not actually think it was a blight at all. But he WAS taking them seriously, especially with this bit of dialogue.

 

Loghain: There are those who'll take advantage of our weakened state if we let them, we must defeat this darkspawn incursion, but we must do so sensibly and without hesitation. 

 

 

 

Logahin most certainly did not know it was a blight, merely a large darkspawn raid. And he WAS trying to keep Cailan off the front lines, and he wasn't going to charge into the battle to save one man, even the king, because that would require breaking his promise to Maric not to put any one man before the good of the whole kingdom, a promise Maric made Loghain swear to when he saved Maric's life, risking the whole of the army. 

No, everyone else had thoughts that it may have been a blight except for Loghain. I know what Loghain said as I'm replaying Origins now so there's no need to quote him. Howe comes up and asks him about the Blight and that's where he denounces it. Anora, just like Cailan, recommended that they go to Orlais for help and Loghain would hear nothing of it. Loghain's problem is that he didn't want to accept help unless it was under his conditions. Like I said, nobody had any reason to believe that it was an actual Blight because the Arch Demon never appeared until Denerim. This would be where it's ok to compare Dragon Age to Mass Effect because only Shepard and his squad had seen the Reapers and the threat they posed whereas nobody else saw them until it was too late.  It's amusing..Loghain won't believe it's a blight yet everyone you go to with the treaties is willing to believe that it is.  When all these different races are willing to see the threat while Loghain won't, that says something. Even Flemeth acknowledged that it was a blight and we know, well those who have played DA I know, who she really is

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

When all these different races are willing to see the threat while Loghain won't, that says something. Even Flemeth acknowledged that it was a blight and we know, well those who have played DA I know, who she really is

Flemeth knows it's a Blight because she's... who she really is. But not only does Loghain not know who she really is, I'm not 100% that he even knows she predicted an Archdemon. (I know they interacted in the books, but I don't know the details; feel free to correct me on that last point.) And apart from Flemeth, the other players really do seem to be taking your word that it's a Blight, and accepting without sufficient proof that you're literally necessary to fight it. Both of these turn out to be true, but you'll need to explain to me how Loghain should have known both of these to be true.

[dragonflight288]

I also replayed Origins. Not once, ever, does he ever call it a Blight until the very end of the game during the Landsmeet. And he makes every indication that he doesn't know it's a blight, and thinks it's a large darkspawn raid. 

 

If you say he knew, then show definite proof that he knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is a blight and that wardens are necessary and not just an order of warriors worthy of respect due to past accomplishments. Especially an order where he personally saw Dunan's predecessor working with a darkspawn (the Architect) when he saved Maric's, Duncan's and Fiona's life at the end of the novel The Calling.