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[Althix]

some people do not consider slavery of domesticated elves as crime worthy of death penalty.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

some people do not consider slavery of domesticated elves as crime worthy of death penalty.

Some people don't much like the death penalty.

[olnorton]

"As for Cailan's death, Loghain did tell him to stay off the front-lines. Whether or not Loghain left him there maliciously, Cailan's life would have been much less in jeopardy if he'd taken Loghain's advice."

I don't think so.

He had to be planning with Howe to kill Cailan many weeks before Ostagar.

Just killing the Couslands wouldn't give Highever to Howe.
Fergus would just become the Teyrn of Highever.
Even if he then killed both of Bryce's heirs, there would be no reason for Cailan to give Highever back to the Howe's.
He would owe Howe nothing.
For the ruler of Ferelden to give Howe Highever, he would need to owe him bigtime.
Like if he had killed someone who could have stood in the way of him becoming ruler of Ferelden.

So after conspiring with Loghain, Howe had an approximately 1 week journey from Denerim to Amarathine to pick up his army & then a week to Highever, kill everyone there & then 3 weeks journey to Ostagar.

So Loghain had sealed Cailans fate at least 5 weeks earlier.
He didn't want to keep Cailan away from the wardens to protect him, it was to make sure he didn't survive, as he had the previous battles.

[phaonica]

"As for Cailan's death, Loghain did tell him to stay off the front-lines. Whether or not Loghain left him there maliciously, Cailan's life would have been much less in jeopardy if he'd taken Loghain's advice."

I don't think so.

He had to be planning with Howe to kill Cailan many weeks before Ostagar.

Just killing the Couslands wouldn't give Highever to Howe.
Fergus would just become the Teyrn of Highever.
Even if he then killed both of Bryce's heirs, there would be no reason for Cailan to give Highever back to the Howe's.
He would owe Howe nothing.
For the ruler of Ferelden to give Howe Highever, he would need to owe him bigtime.
Like if he had killed someone who could have stood in the way of him becoming ruler of Ferelden.

So after conspiring with Loghain, Howe had an approximately 1 week journey from Denerim to Amarathine to pick up his army & then a week to Highever, kill everyone there & then 3 weeks journey to Ostagar.

So Loghain had sealed Cailans fate at least 5 weeks earlier.
He didn't want to keep Cailan away from the wardens to protect him, it was to make sure he didn't survive, as he had the previous battles.

 

I think that Howe could have thought that Cailan would be so wrapped up in the battles, that he'd barely bother to investigate what happened. I could believe that Howe would think that he could outplay Cailan.

[MissScarletTanager]

*snip*

 

So after conspiring with Loghain, Howe had an approximately 1 week journey from Denerim to Amarathine to pick up his army & then a week to Highever, kill everyone there & then 3 weeks journey to Ostagar.

So Loghain had sealed Cailans fate at least 5 weeks earlier.
He didn't want to keep Cailan away from the wardens to protect him, it was to make sure he didn't survive, as he had the previous battles.

 

This whole post. Yes, Loghain was a great man and a hero. But he did terrible things in DAO that I, both as a player and someone who played a Cousland, couldn't forgive. I'll add something to your list, olnorton; Loghain needed the Couslands gone. According to the wiki and in-game stuff, Ferelden has only two Teyrnirs; Highever and Gwaren. Loghain was Teyrn of Gwaren, and Bryce Teyrn of Highever. Even an Arl like Eamon is below a Teyrn in power and lands. With Bryce still alive and active, Loghain would have been seriously hard-pressed to do take control of Ferelden like he did in DAO. So he needed to get rid of Bryce and the rest of the Couslands, or at least strike them enough of a crippling blow to continue with his plan and install Howe as Teyrn of Highever before any surviving Cousland children (Fergus and/or the Cousland Warden) could arrive to attest it. With Howe controlling Highever, Loghain technically controlling Gwaren (though he for all intents and purposes abandoned it to darkspawn when fleeing Ostagar) and the two of them manipulating/controlling Anora, the lands of Ferelden were pretty much under their control. Another reason to plan on getting rid of the Couslands; they were already known for standing up the tyrants and fighting against their king/being generally rebellious, as we learn in the Warden's Keep DLC.

 

I've never like Loghain; I think he's an ass who deserved to die for what he'd done. But as I was playing through my most recent game, I paid a bit more attention. Loghain acts unhinged at different points, paranoid even, and talks an awful lot about the Orlesians for someone who saw the massive amounts of darkspawn knocking on his front door. This irrational hatred of Orlais that stemmed from the war is so strong that he completely ignored the giant, world-threatening mass of monsters bull-rushing through Ferelden. Loghain's fear and hatred of Orlais got the better of him. Everyone was an Orlesian spy to him. Cailan was selling Ferelden to Orlais in his mind. The Grey Wardens were going to bring in Orlesians. Orlais Orlais Orlais. It's classic paranoia and kind of reminds me of the Red Scare. Loghain was McCarthy and Orlais were his Communists. 

 

And because of his fear and paranoia, Ferelden lost a huge chunk of it's army, went into civil war at the worst possible time - during a Blight - lost possibly thousands of civilian lives, etc. If you look at a map of Ferelden and look at where Ostagar and Denerim are located, you see that they are on polar opposite ends of Ferelden. The darkspawn cut a swath straight through the center of Ferelden, most likely killing everything in the way (I seriously doubt Lothering was the only town between Ostagar and Denerim). That is a potential of thousands of lives lost, all because of a decision by Loghain and a conspiracy with Rendon Howe. If THAT doesn't deserve for him to lose his head at the Landsmeet, I don't know what does.

 

Except Duncan's death. Seriously; that was a tear jerker there.

[phaonica]

I've never like Loghain; I think he's an ass who deserved to die for what he'd done. But as I was playing through my most recent game, I paid a bit more attention. Loghain acts unhinged at different points, paranoid even, and talks an awful lot about the Orlesians for someone who saw the massive amounts of darkspawn knocking on his front door. This irrational hatred of Orlais that stemmed from the war is so strong that he completely ignored the giant, world-threatening mass of monsters bull-rushing through Ferelden. Loghain's fear and hatred of Orlais got the better of him. Everyone was an Orlesian spy to him. Cailan was selling Ferelden to Orlais in his mind. The Grey Wardens were going to bring in Orlesians. Orlais Orlais Orlais. It's classic paranoia and kind of reminds me of the Red Scare. Loghain was McCarthy and Orlais were his Communists. 

 

For what little it's worth, Celene revealed in The Maked Empire that she was intending to conquer Ferelden via marriage to Cailan or other convenient manipulation, then move on to Nevarra and Tevinter. In her words, she "had hoped to do through marriage what Meghren had failed to do by force." Celene would have approached the new king of Ferelden about a similar marriage arrangement, but wasn't confident that she could manipulate the new king. So while the Blight may have been a more immediate problem, and though he didn't know about this plan specifically, Loghain wasn't wrong about Orlais' intentions.

[MisterJB]

If you play the game as a friendly person you eventually build up a relationship with Alistair to the point of him almost bring a brother to the Warden.
Loghain? He will never really like you. Hell if he weren't a warden with you he'd leave you instantly!

Loghain in Awakening:

"I came to pay my respects, leadership looks good on you and here is a weapon from the Warden I most respected in the world."

 

Meh, we cool.

[phaonica]

Loghain in Awakening:

"I came to pay my respects, leadership looks good on you and here is a weapon from the Warden I most respected in the world."

 

Meh, we cool.

 

And there is this, when you first get to camp: "All of this can rightly be called my fault. Whether or not you can do better remains to be seen. But if you can make this the end, Warden, I will follow you. I swear it."

 

And there is this during the epilogue: "Allow me to say before I go that you have earned my respect. Odd that I ended up here, saying that, but there it is...Return to your celebration. Perhaps we shall meet again."

 

And, here is some dialog that exists in the toolset that, if you use a mod to trigger his "friendly" approval tier, he will can say "I would have expected you to kill me for what I did to you and you didn't. You have proven... a friend."

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

"As for Cailan's death, Loghain did tell him to stay off the front-lines. Whether or not Loghain left him there maliciously, Cailan's life would have been much less in jeopardy if he'd taken Loghain's advice."

I don't think so.

He had to be planning with Howe to kill Cailan many weeks before Ostagar.

Just killing the Couslands wouldn't give Highever to Howe.
Fergus would just become the Teyrn of Highever.
Even if he then killed both of Bryce's heirs, there would be no reason for Cailan to give Highever back to the Howe's.
He would owe Howe nothing.
For the ruler of Ferelden to give Howe Highever, he would need to owe him bigtime.
Like if he had killed someone who could have stood in the way of him becoming ruler of Ferelden.

So after conspiring with Loghain, Howe had an approximately 1 week journey from Denerim to Amarathine to pick up his army & then a week to Highever, kill everyone there & then 3 weeks journey to Ostagar.

So Loghain had sealed Cailans fate at least 5 weeks earlier.
He didn't want to keep Cailan away from the wardens to protect him, it was to make sure he didn't survive, as he had the previous battles.

... Every single Warden was on the front lines, and Loghain's plans (in the interpretation I assume you favor) ended with all of them dead. How, precisely, do you imagine Loghain thought he could kill Cailan more easily and with less political cost in his own camp than on the battlefield you imagine he purposefully threw under the bus?

[olnorton]

... Every single Warden was on the front lines, and Loghain's plans (in the interpretation I assume you favor) ended with all of them dead. How, precisely, do you imagine Loghain thought he could kill Cailan more easily and with less political cost in his own camp than on the battlefield you imagine he purposefully threw under the bus?

Yes, there was a fair chance the battle would go as he planned, given that it relied on a flanking manoeuvre that he knew would never come. But nothing is certain once the fighting starts. Many battles throughout history have been won against the odds.
A knife in the back when he is alone with someone he trusts is far more controllable.

But if you have another reason that Loghain would give Highever (a very large portion on prime Ferelden real estate) to Howe at a time of war when money is so tight he is selling elves to Tevinter, I'd like to here it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yes, there was a fair chance the battle would go as he planned, given that it relied on a flanking manoeuvre that he knew would never come. But nothing is certain once the fighting starts. Many battles throughout history have been won against the odds.
A knife in the back when he is alone with someone he trusts is far more controllable.

But if you have another reason that Loghain would give Highever (a very large portion on prime Ferelden real estate) to Howe at a time of war when money is so tight he is selling elves to Tevinter, I'd like to here it.

You got here late, huh?

 

A: Howe isn't given Highever; he takes it. Whether or not he did so with Loghain's permission, he did send an army and clamp down on the territory you claim Loghain "gave" him. He can probably be dislodged, if this was something Loghain disapproved of, but that's rather a pain in the ass to do in a time of Blight, Civil War, and (according to Loghain) Orlesian menace.

B: Howe is a major member of the Highever nobility, and controls what is stated to be the richest city in Ferelden if I remember the Awakening Codex correctly. So far as we can tell the main reason he's not the heir apparent in the event that the entire Cousland family dies or disappears is because he's responsible when that happens.

 

And you don't seem to have mentioned my point about the political costs of purposefully killing Cailan in camp. Cailan dying in battle in a turn of events Loghain can semi-reasonably be blamed for started a Civil War. Cailan dying in a camp where he was supposed to be safe would be worse. 

[MissScarletTanager]

I think we're missing an important piece about Ostagar; Loghain wanted Cailan to stay in the camp, not the front lines just outside Ostagar right? Well, where is the camp? It's inside Ostagar. Which was overrun by darkspawn. Sure, technically the camp inside Ostagar was 'safer' than the front lines, but it would have just prolonged Cailan's life a few minutes at best. The only survivors of Ostagar as far as I know are the Warden, Alistair, and possibly Dog (if a Cousland Warden). You could also count the guy from the Return to Ostagar DLC I guess. And there is an obvious reason for Loghain to tell Cailan to stay in the camp; to keep up appearances. He doesn't want anyone to suspect him, so tells Cailan he should be in the slightly safer - but ultimately would be overrun just like the front - camp inside Ostagar. Without Loghain's troops, Ostagar was a complete and utter slaughter. The only reason ANYONE survived was because of the intervention of Flemeth.

 

Loghain was not in camp when he signaled the retreat; he was on the hill far enough away to either flank the darkspawn or retreat. He did the latter as planned, and all those in Ostagar save those rescued by Flemeth were massacred. Whether Cailan was at the front or in the camp makes no difference, but Loghain telling Cailan to stay in camp, feigning worry for the King, works right into his plans and keeps suspicion off him. Going "Yes my king, go to the front!" or something would've looked real suspicious, especially given Loghain's character.

 

As for Howe's takeover of Highever; yes, he did 'take' it. But he wouldn't keep it for long. Amaranthine isn't the richest city in Ferelden either. The codex entry Howes of Amaranthine makes no mention of that, nor does the description in game or on Bioware's website. They mostly make reference to strong walls and it being an important port that establishes contacts with Northern Ferelden and beyond. Also, Howe wouldn't be under the likely jurisdiction of Highever (more likely the Howe's are sworn into fealty to Gwaren, as Highever is to the north and Amaranthine more southeast and closer to Gwaren) so wouldn't necessarily be Highever nobility. Ferelden nobility yes, Highever nobility no. He also wouldn't be the heir apparent in the event of the death of the entire Cousland family, either. First, Fergus and a Cousland Warden are known to be still alive, so even if Howe WAS it wouldn't matter; there are Cousland heirs. Second, when Flemeth killed Conobar (who was then Bann of what would become Castle Cousland and Highever), it wasn't any noble who acquired the title and land. It was his Captain of the Guard, Sarim Cousland. Third, someone doesn't get a teyrnir by attacking and occupying another as Howe did; in the system of nobility that Ferelden has, only a King or Queen can name a teyrn. In the event of the total demise of the Couslands, the teyrnir of Highever would have reverted to the Crown, who would have appointed a new Teyrn. In this case, Howe demolishes the Couslands and believes Fergus and the Cousland Warden lost as Ostagar. Loghain returns to Denerim and instates himself as Regent to Anora. Then he either persuades Anora to name Howe Teyrn of Highever or he just does it himself under the guise of "Regent".

[phaonica]

I think we're missing an important piece about Ostagar; Loghain wanted Cailan to stay in the camp, not the front lines just outside Ostagar right? Well, where is the camp? It's inside Ostagar. Which was overrun by darkspawn. Sure, technically the camp inside Ostagar was 'safer' than the front lines, but it would have just prolonged Cailan's life a few minutes at best. The only survivors of Ostagar as far as I know are the Warden, Alistair, and possibly Dog (if a Cousland Warden). You could also count the guy from the Return to Ostagar DLC I guess. And there is an obvious reason for Loghain to tell Cailan to stay in the camp; to keep up appearances. He doesn't want anyone to suspect him, so tells Cailan he should be in the slightly safer - but ultimately would be overrun just like the front - camp inside Ostagar. Without Loghain's troops, Ostagar was a complete and utter slaughter. The only reason ANYONE survived was because of the intervention of Flemeth.

 

Loghain was not in camp when he signaled the retreat; he was on the hill far enough away to either flank the darkspawn or retreat. He did the latter as planned, and all those in Ostagar save those rescued by Flemeth were massacred. Whether Cailan was at the front or in the camp makes no difference, but Loghain telling Cailan to stay in camp, feigning worry for the King, works right into his plans and keeps suspicion off him. Going "Yes my king, go to the front!" or something would've looked real suspicious, especially given Loghain's character.

 

As for Howe's takeover of Highever; yes, he did 'take' it. But he wouldn't keep it for long. Amaranthine isn't the richest city in Ferelden either. The codex entry Howes of Amaranthine makes no mention of that, nor does the description in game or on Bioware's website. They mostly make reference to strong walls and it being an important port that establishes contacts with Northern Ferelden and beyond. Also, Howe wouldn't be under the likely jurisdiction of Highever (more likely the Howe's are sworn into fealty to Gwaren, as Highever is to the north and Amaranthine more southeast and closer to Gwaren) so wouldn't necessarily be Highever nobility. Ferelden nobility yes, Highever nobility no. He also wouldn't be the heir apparent in the event of the death of the entire Cousland family, either. First, Fergus and a Cousland Warden are known to be still alive, so even if Howe WAS it wouldn't matter; there are Cousland heirs. Second, when Flemeth killed Conobar (who was then Bann of what would become Castle Cousland and Highever), it wasn't any noble who acquired the title and land. It was his Captain of the Guard, Sarim Cousland. Third, someone doesn't get a teyrnir by attacking and occupying another as Howe did; in the system of nobility that Ferelden has, only a King or Queen can name a teyrn. In the event of the total demise of the Couslands, the teyrnir of Highever would have reverted to the Crown, who would have appointed a new Teyrn. In this case, Howe demolishes the Couslands and believes Fergus and the Cousland Warden lost as Ostagar. Loghain returns to Denerim and instates himself as Regent to Anora. Then he either persuades Anora to name Howe Teyrn of Highever or he just does it himself under the guise of "Regent".

 

Just because Loghain *could* have set up Cailan doesn't mean he *did* set up Cailan. And just because Loghain *could* have sent Howe, it doesn't mean he *did.*

 

Does the proper succession of the teyrnir matter when the King/Queen has the authority to strip the family in question of their titles and lands? I do think it is possible that Howe could have spun a convincing enough story to turn Cailan against the Couslands, even with survivors, especially with Cailan preoccupied with the Blight.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I think we're missing an important piece about Ostagar; Loghain wanted Cailan to stay in the camp, not the front lines just outside Ostagar right? Well, where is the camp? It's inside Ostagar. Which was overrun by darkspawn. Sure, technically the camp inside Ostagar was 'safer' than the front lines, but it would have just prolonged Cailan's life a few minutes at best. The only survivors of Ostagar as far as I know are the Warden, Alistair, and possibly Dog (if a Cousland Warden). You could also count the guy from the Return to Ostagar DLC I guess. And there is an obvious reason for Loghain to tell Cailan to stay in the camp; to keep up appearances. He doesn't want anyone to suspect him, so tells Cailan he should be in the slightly safer - but ultimately would be overrun just like the front - camp inside Ostagar. Without Loghain's troops, Ostagar was a complete and utter slaughter. The only reason ANYONE survived was because of the intervention of Flemeth.

 

Loghain was not in camp when he signaled the retreat; he was on the hill far enough away to either flank the darkspawn or retreat. He did the latter as planned, and all those in Ostagar save those rescued by Flemeth were massacred. Whether Cailan was at the front or in the camp makes no difference, but Loghain telling Cailan to stay in camp, feigning worry for the King, works right into his plans and keeps suspicion off him. Going "Yes my king, go to the front!" or something would've looked real suspicious, especially given Loghain's character.

 

As for Howe's takeover of Highever; yes, he did 'take' it. But he wouldn't keep it for long. Amaranthine isn't the richest city in Ferelden either. The codex entry Howes of Amaranthine makes no mention of that, nor does the description in game or on Bioware's website. They mostly make reference to strong walls and it being an important port that establishes contacts with Northern Ferelden and beyond. Also, Howe wouldn't be under the likely jurisdiction of Highever (more likely the Howe's are sworn into fealty to Gwaren, as Highever is to the north and Amaranthine more southeast and closer to Gwaren) so wouldn't necessarily be Highever nobility. Ferelden nobility yes, Highever nobility no. He also wouldn't be the heir apparent in the event of the death of the entire Cousland family, either. First, Fergus and a Cousland Warden are known to be still alive, so even if Howe WAS it wouldn't matter; there are Cousland heirs. Second, when Flemeth killed Conobar (who was then Bann of what would become Castle Cousland and Highever), it wasn't any noble who acquired the title and land. It was his Captain of the Guard, Sarim Cousland. Third, someone doesn't get a teyrnir by attacking and occupying another as Howe did; in the system of nobility that Ferelden has, only a King or Queen can name a teyrn. In the event of the total demise of the Couslands, the teyrnir of Highever would have reverted to the Crown, who would have appointed a new Teyrn. In this case, Howe demolishes the Couslands and believes Fergus and the Cousland Warden lost as Ostagar. Loghain returns to Denerim and instates himself as Regent to Anora. Then he either persuades Anora to name Howe Teyrn of Highever or he just does it himself under the guise of "Regent".

Point One: The Wardens, their Dog, and the guy from RtO aren't the only survivors of that battle. Carver Hawke, Aveline, and Hawke (unless he's a mage) all fought in Ostagar. And I believe they were on the front lines or something close. If Cailan was in camp, or right next to Loghain, he'd have had a decent chance of not dying. (If Loghain didn't assassinate him, which becomes harder to hide in the camp. If one or two men loyal to Cailan who is/are willing to risk his/their life/lives to spread the word of what happened find(s) out, Loghain's life becomes really complicated. It did anyway, but this would have been worse.)

 

Point Two: This Codex from Awakening puts Amaranthine in Northern Ferelden, and thus under the Couslands if he even reports to anyone, which makes sense considering that Howe's dialogue during the Human Noble Origin heavily implies that he is answerable to Bryce. And while I was remembering a stronger superlative than Amaranthine got it really is said to be one of the wealthiest cities in the kingdom. As for the argument against Howe as a natural successor, my argument for Howe's legitimacy as a successor was that Howe would be a good choice and from all we can tell the best if they'd died of something other than his own actions, so arguing that you don't get to be a teryn by Klingon Promotion is fairly pointless.

 

Arguing that Howe couldn't hold Highever if Loghain attacked him is also not really a good counter for my argument, since I've noted that Howe might be overthrown if Loghain put his mind to it. I'm arguing that the problem is that now really isn't the best time for Loghain to open a new front, since he's already got more on his plate than any sane ruler would want, which I don't think you've adequately addressed. Like I said, Loghain has to deal with the Blight, the Civil War, and (he thinks) the Orlesians. And you think he could spare the men for Howe?

[MissScarletTanager]

I'd forgotten about that little tidbit from DA2 about the MCs having fought in Ostagar. Explains why it took them so long to hightail it out of Lothering at least. If Cailan was right next to Loghain then yes, he most likely would have survived. If he was in the camp however, he would be dead as a doornail unless he managed to escape like Aveline and Carver (and maybe Hawke) did. Loghain wasn't in the camp when he signaled the retreat; he was in position for the flanking maneuver they'd originally planned on. In DAO, Cailan shoots Loghain's suggestion of staying in camp down and going to the front lines, and he dies there. But even if he'd taken Loghain's suggestion and stayed in camp, he'd still be dead. You see the camp get overrun and decimated during the attack, especially after the darkspawn take over the Tower of Ishal. Loghain turned his back and his men on Cailan and the army and left him there to die, knowing full well that the horde of darkspawn attacking would slaughter everyone.

 

My assumption on Amaranthine being under the jurisdiction of Gwaren stemmed more from looking at the map, as the city is closer to Gwaren then Highever, but after that codex entry I'll concede I was wrong there. My argument against Howe as successor more stemmed from the fact that only kings and queens can name Teyrns. I'll grant you that Howe would have been a good candidate for the teyrnir in the event of the death of all the Couslands, but he couldn't just instate himself without the authority of the Crown. But the point is moot anyway, as there are surviving Cousland children regardless of whether or not you play as a Human Noble; Fergus survives either way, and would be the rightful heir to Highever.

 

I never said that Loghain would have attacked Howe. I'm saying that they planned the attack on the Couslands and abandoning Cailan at Ostagar. We don't know exactly how big Bryce Couslands forces were, but I'd wager they were rather sizeable given his political important and the lands he governed. They could have taken up the slack that Loghain's men from Gwaren left when retreating. Granted, Fergus took some of their troops to Ostagar ahead of schedule, but not all of them. Also, as it is stated by Dairren that many wanted Bryce to be king after the death of Maric (and he abdicated in favor of Cailan). Loghain would have had a much, much harder time dealing with a living Bryce Cousland after Ostagar. With Bryce Cousland dead and Howe instated as Teyrn by Loghain as Regent, Loghain would have had the power to stop any of that Orlesian interference he was so afraid of. Remember, Loghain didn't even believe this was a true Blight until it was almost too late (the Landsmeet).

[phaonica]

Well, if I understand correctly the person who wrote Loghain said that Loghain had no intention before Ostagar of having Cailan die. That's good enough for me.

[DinkyD]

Hmm.. if one person can be certain of what he did, it's Loghain himself. So what does he feel the need for atone for by dying by Archdemon? It's called the Redemption Ending, not the "Sending-an-innocent-man-to-his-death-who-was-unfairly-blamed-for-crimes-yet-feels-inexplicably-guilty" ending. 

[phaonica]

Hmm.. if one person can be certain of what he did, it's Loghain himself. So what does he feel the need for atone for by dying by Archdemon? It's called the Redemption Ending, not the "Sending-an-innocent-man-to-his-death-who-was-unfairly-blamed-for-crimes-yet-feels-inexplicably-guilty" ending. 

 

I'm not saying that I think he did no wrong. I'm disagreeing, even with him, that he needs to die to atone.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Hmm.. if one person can be certain of what he did, it's Loghain himself. So what does he feel the need for atone for by dying by Archdemon? It's called the Redemption Ending, not the "Sending-an-innocent-man-to-his-death-who-was-unfairly-blamed-for-crimes-yet-feels-inexplicably-guilty" ending. 

Speaking as a former criminal justice major, people who are unfairly blamed for crimes really do feel guilty sometimes. It's called the labeling theory. But I'm not arguing Loghain has nothing to atone for. I'm arguing that Cailan's death is not one of these things and that there's no ironclad logical case that says that premeditating the Couslands' destruction is on the list either.

[MissScarletTanager]

Okay, let's assume Loghain didn't originally intend to abandon Ostagar and didn't know of/help plan Howe's massacre of the Couslands (both points I disagree with, but hear me out). Even still, that retreat and his total abandonment of Gwaren and the south of Ferelden to the darkspawn led to thousands, if not tens of thousands of deaths. Denerim is in the far north of Ferelden; Ostagar and Gwaren are deep south. The darkspawn would have had to cut a bloody swath through the whole country and through the bannorn to get to Denerim. Loghain's treachery and abandonment of the king, the grey wardens, and everyone at Ostagar also led to the deaths of huge amounts of Ferelden as the darkspawn marched to Denerim. There's no way the darkspawn just left all the farmers and civilans between Ostagar and Denerim alone. All those deaths because of a decision of his, whether or not he made it in the heat of the moment or pre-planned, is more than enough damning in my mind to call for his execution.

[DinkyD]

I'm not saying that I think he did no wrong. I'm disagreeing, even with him, that he needs to die to atone.

 

 

Yes sorry, that wasn't actually addressed to anyone in particular, just to the thread in general.

 

The whole thread topic question is odd really reflecting on it. So what does he have to be guilty of to deserve such punishment? If you're roleplaying, desertion, regicide, slavery possibly (in Ferelden)? Conspiring to poison, etc would all or some be capital offences in this fantasy world, assuming he is guilty. Even just conspiring to poison an Arl could be considered enough.  Or is the question "do you believe in the Death Penalty and for what crimes"?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Okay, let's assume Loghain didn't originally intend to abandon Ostagar and didn't know of/help plan Howe's massacre of the Couslands (both points I disagree with, but hear me out). Even still, that retreat and his total abandonment of Gwaren and the south of Ferelden to the darkspawn led to thousands, if not tens of thousands of deaths. Denerim is in the far north of Ferelden; Ostagar and Gwaren are deep south. The darkspawn would have had to cut a bloody swath through the whole country and through the bannorn to get to Denerim. Loghain's treachery and abandonment of the king, the grey wardens, and everyone at Ostagar also led to the deaths of huge amounts of Ferelden as the darkspawn marched to Denerim. There's no way the darkspawn just left all the farmers and civilans between Ostagar and Denerim alone. All those deaths because of a decision of his, whether or not he made it in the heat of the moment or pre-planned, is more than enough damning in my mind to call for his execution.

The argument wasn't whether or not it was preplanned, it was whether or not it was justified. You have a good argument that it isn't given the consequences of this retreat, but the flaw it it is this: what would the consequences of not retreating be? That's a harder question. Loghain argues, even after he's been found guilty of being a supervillain and has nothing further to gain from it, that the darkspawn would have either had Cailan's half of the army (if Loghain did what he did) or the entire thing (if Loghain tried to save Cailan using his half.) And then what would have happened? You can argue that Loghain was misjudging his chances, but given the darkspawn column we're able to see early into the battle I'm not sure how much of a case you've got.

[DinkyD]

The argument wasn't whether or not it was preplanned, it was whether or not it was justified. You have a good argument that it isn't given the consequences of this retreat, but the flaw it it is this: what would the consequences of not retreating be? That's a harder question. Loghain argues, even after he's been found guilty of super-treason and has nothing further to gain from it, that the darkspawn would have either had Cailan's half of the army (if Loghain did what he did) or the entire thing (if Loghain tried to save Cailan using his half.) And then what would have happened? You can argue that Loghain was misjudging his chances, but given the darkspawn column we're able to see early into the battle I'm not sure how much of a case you've got.

 

I've never read that on the forum before, what exactly does he say?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I've never read that on the forum before, what exactly does he say?

Basically exactly what I said.

 

 

• Wynne: How cold does the King's metal feel in your hands, Loghain?
• Loghain: I feel nothing, old woman, and your constant prodding for regrets will gain you little.
• Wynne: And what if it had been your daughter in his place? Would you have regrets then?
• Loghain: Had I raised her to be such a fool as that, I'd have been in no better position to save her! What you forget is that your king was beyond saving. The darkspawn would either have had him or have had us all. Do you really believe we would have been so much better off had I chosen otherwise?
• Wynne: It is my belief that a man who ties his own hands behind his back should not cry foul that there is no one left to defend his king!

Edit: This one is pretty similar.

 

• Loghain: So you didn't rush to your king's rescue? I see. Then both of us left the boy to die.
• Wynne: I was no general at the head of an army! I could never have reached him!
• Loghain: And I had no magic that could break those darkspawn ranks. But perhaps you think I ought to have tried, regardless. No doubt, the lives of mere soldiers are cheap in the eyes of the Circle.
• Wynne: And what of all the soldiers who died with their king? Their lives were worth nothing to you.
• Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families.
• Loghain: I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day.

[MissScarletTanager]

The argument wasn't whether or not it was preplanned, it was whether or not it was justified. You have a good argument that it isn't given the consequences of this retreat, but the flaw it it is this: what would the consequences of not retreating be? That's a harder question. Loghain argues, even after he's been found guilty of being a supervillain and has nothing further to gain from it, that the darkspawn would have either had Cailan's half of the army (if Loghain did what he did) or the entire thing (if Loghain tried to save Cailan using his half.) And then what would have happened? You can argue that Loghain was misjudging his chances, but given the darkspawn column we're able to see early into the battle I'm not sure how much of a case you've got.

The consequences of not retreating can only be speculated, since we have no idea what would have happened had Loghain not retreated. Maybe Loghain's forces would have died along with the rest. Maybe they would have won and pushed them back. Maybe the Archdemon would have shown up against this large force and the Grey Wardens would have killed it, ending the Blight at Ostagar. Maybe Cailan would have still died. But chances are, with Loghain's forces, they would have been able to at least push back the darkspawn, especially with all of Ferelden's Grey Wardens there. They'd survived multiple skirmishes to that point, and had even more soldiers with the edition of the Cousland army. With Loghain's soldiers, they could have at the very least pushed back the darkspawn until the Archdemon showed up, at which point the Grey Wardens do their job. Or push them back to give enough time to call for reinforcements from Orlais.

 

Even then, Loghain committed regicide by leaving Cailan to his death, desertion for abandoning his post - and again, for abandoning his kind - treason for both those things, was complacent in the slavery of the elves of the Alienage, abandoned his teyrnir to be overrun back darkspawn, attempted murder with his hiring of the Antivan Crows (even if Howe convinced him, he still did it and paid them), and left a huge swath of Ferelden to be overrun by darkspawn. Any one of those things would be enough to order a beheading, especially in the pseudo-medieval period DAO is set in.