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[DinkyD]

 

Basically exactly what I said.

 

 

• Wynne: How cold does the King's metal feel in your hands, Loghain?
• Loghain: I feel nothing, old woman, and your constant prodding for regrets will gain you little.
• Wynne: And what if it had been your daughter in his place? Would you have regrets then?
• Loghain: Had I raised her to be such a fool as that, I'd have been in no better position to save her! What you forget is that your king was beyond saving. The darkspawn would either have had him or have had us all. Do you really believe we would have been so much better off had I chosen otherwise?
• Wynne: It is my belief that a man who ties his own hands behind his back should not cry foul that there is no one left to defend his king!

Edit: This one is pretty similar.

 

• Loghain: So you didn't rush to your king's rescue? I see. Then both of us left the boy to die.
• Wynne: I was no general at the head of an army! I could never have reached him!
• Loghain: And I had no magic that could break those darkspawn ranks. But perhaps you think I ought to have tried, regardless. No doubt, the lives of mere soldiers are cheap in the eyes of the Circle.
• Wynne: And what of all the soldiers who died with their king? Their lives were worth nothing to you.
• Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families.
• Loghain: I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day.

 

 

 

Return to Ostagar, I presume. If he's telling the truth though, it does make his behaviour bizarre and doesn't explain the scenes at Ostagar. And why does he tell Wynne this but not Anora? Why wait for the beacon? How did he know that he was too late? Maybe Wynne's right that he is rationalising after the fact over the guilt. After all, it's easy to say, well he would have died anyway. 

 

And that's the thing for me - either he is guilty at Ostagar, or his behaviour is irrational. But I don't assume that was intended by the authors, as we are aware of the attempts to rehabilitate the perception of Loghain after the release of DAO. That's why I prefer to consider DAO in isolation, and give a pass to some of the DLC. I mean, do they really expect us to believe Fiona was Alistair's mother all along? 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Return to Ostagar, I presume. If he's telling the truth though, it does make his behaviour bizarre and doesn't explain the scenes at Ostagar. And why does he tell Wynne this but not Anora? Why wait for the beacon? How did he know that he was too late? Maybe Wynne's right that he is rationalising after the fact over the guilt. After all, it's easy to say, well he would have died anyway. 

 

And that's the thing for me - either he is guilty at Ostagar, or his behaviour is irrational. But I don't assume that was intended by the authors, as we are aware of the attempts to rehabilitate the perception of Loghain after the release of DAO. That's why I prefer to consider DAO in isolation, and give a pass to some of the DLC. I mean, do they really expect us to believe Fiona was Alistair's mother all along? 

The first one was from RtO. The second one was not. And he does put Cailan's death on Cailan's own head when speaking to Anora. And I don't remember the quote from Wynne saying he was rationalizing. Could you please provide it?

[DinkyD]

The first one was from RtO. The second one was not. And he does put Cailan's death on Cailan's own head when speaking to Anora. And I don't remember the quote from Wynne saying he was rationalizing. Could you please provide it?

 

Anora flat out asks him did he kill her husband. He is ambiguous and evasive. Cailan being the "author of his own fate" is compatible with Loghain feeling he had no choice but to get rid of him for the good of Ferelden, similarly, to remove the wardens with Cailan as a side casualty. He says nothing about the futility of any rescue to clear his own name from blame for deliberate murder. Yet he believes he has to give - well a bit better -  account of himself to Wynne? Anora later tells the warden that Loghain murdered Cailan. He can't or won't keep Anora on side. Loghain comes across as incompetent and irrational.

 

My rationalising thing was just how I interpreted Wynne's meaning in the last line of the first one: He tied his hands behind his back to prevent himself, then later, says that it was other circumstances made it impossible, "forgetting" about the self-tied hands.

[phaonica]

Maybe he was acting emotionally and not rationally in regards to Anora. Maybe he was finding himself in over his head and he doesn't want to admit it to anyone, especially her. It is irrational, it's not a good plan, and it's dangerous, given the position he's put himself in, but it's not malevolent.

[phaonica]

The consequences of not retreating can only be speculated, since we have no idea what would have happened had Loghain not retreated. Maybe Loghain's forces would have died along with the rest. Maybe they would have won and pushed them back. Maybe the Archdemon would have shown up against this large force and the Grey Wardens would have killed it, ending the Blight at Ostagar. Maybe Cailan would have still died. But chances are, with Loghain's forces, they would have been able to at least push back the darkspawn, especially with all of Ferelden's Grey Wardens there. They'd survived multiple skirmishes to that point, and had even more soldiers with the edition of the Cousland army. With Loghain's soldiers, they could have at the very least pushed back the darkspawn until the Archdemon showed up, at which point the Grey Wardens do their job. Or push them back to give enough time to call for reinforcements from Orlais.

 

Even then, Loghain committed regicide by leaving Cailan to his death, desertion for abandoning his post - and again, for abandoning his kind - treason for both those things, was complacent in the slavery of the elves of the Alienage, abandoned his teyrnir to be overrun back darkspawn, attempted murder with his hiring of the Antivan Crows (even if Howe convinced him, he still did it and paid them), and left a huge swath of Ferelden to be overrun by darkspawn. Any one of those things would be enough to order a beheading, especially in the pseudo-medieval period DAO is set in.

 

You say the consequences of not retreating can only be speculated, but then you turn around and say that without a doubt, they would have at least been able to hold long enough for the Archdemon to show up. You don't know that.

 

If you want to execute him any given one of those reasons, so be it. Between my understanding of his history before the Blight, and his motivations throughout his lifetime, I believe he deserves a second chance.

[MissScarletTanager]

You say the consequences of not retreating can only be speculated, but then you turn around and say that without a doubt, they would have at least been able to hold long enough for the Archdemon to show up. You don't know that.

 

If you want to execute him any given one of those reasons, so be it. Between my understanding of his history before the Blight, and his motivations throughout his lifetime, I believe he deserves a second chance.

I said "could have" and never typed the phrase "without a doubt". I never said I knew that would happen. I said it maybe could have. I posted possible scenarios had they not retreated and the closest thing I said was that, chances are they could have held out. Which is my opinion, just as yours is that there's no way and they would have been wiped out (or at least Loghain believed that).

 

Between what I know of the game and my playthroughs and such, I believe he deserves to die ten times over. Nothing he did could justify the deaths of all those civilians, of the decimation of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden, regicide, and slavery. It was also far to horrid to warrant any kind of second chance. That's my opinion.

[HiroVoid]

Generally don't like brining in meta-game arguments, but it should also be kept in mind that Ostagar probably suffers the worst of scrapped storylines and revised storylines.  In a recent iteration before the final product(it seems), it was intended for part of the story to include Cailan abandoning Anora for Celene meaning Cailan, in Loghain's eyes, would be betraying Ferelden and his daughter: the two things he cared most about.  Ultimately, signs are still there in Return to Ostagar, but Loghain didn't actually know.  In this case, I believe Loghain's words that he abandoned Ostagar because he believed it was a lost cause.  He still did plenty of crap afterwards, but I don't see Ostagar as one.

[phaonica]

Between what I know of the game and my playthroughs and such, I believe he deserves to die ten times over. Nothing he did could justify the deaths of all those civilians, of the decimation of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden, regicide, and slavery. It was also far to horrid to warrant any kind of second chance. That's my opinion.

 
That's fine. I see that you played DAI. Can I ask you something about it? I'll put it in spoilers in case someone here hasn't played it.

[MissScarletTanager]

I'm not gonna quote that 'cause it'll show me the spoiler. I haven't beaten Inquisition yet; I just finished Wicked Hearts and did the Grey Warden stuff xD So if it's any further down the road than that, I don't wanna know.

[phaonica]

I'm not gonna quote that 'cause it'll show me the spoiler. I haven't beaten Inquisition yet; I just finished Wicked Hearts and did the Grey Warden stuff xD So if it's any further down the road than that, I don't wanna know.

Ok I tried not to spoil. I'd feel bad if I did. I got rid of it just in case!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I said "could have" and never typed the phrase "without a doubt". I never said I knew that would happen. I said it maybe could have. I posted possible scenarios had they not retreated and the closest thing I said was that, chances are they could have held out. Which is my opinion, just as yours is that there's no way and they would have been wiped out (or at least Loghain believed that).

 

Between what I know of the game and my playthroughs and such, I believe he deserves to die ten times over. Nothing he did could justify the deaths of all those civilians, of the decimation of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden, regicide, and slavery. It was also far to horrid to warrant any kind of second chance. That's my opinion.

My opinion is that barring the Archdemon suddenly appearing and the Wardens killing it (which judging by Oghren's dialogue right after the full-party fight and the number of surviving darkspawn in the scene where it dies, is the only reason the PC won at Denerim) Ostagar was a lost cause. My major support for this opinion is the large darkspawn column we see from the bridge of the Tower of Ishal, though the problem where the beacon gets lit at what is almost certainly the wrong time (Alistair can't really be sure of keeping track of time, though even if he could he admits he believes it to be late) is also unhelpful. I've admitted that the Archdemon could have turned this around (again, I believe that happened in Denerim) but Loghain's scout report leads me to believe that that was unlikely to happen. So unless you have some good support for an opinion that the battle was winnable I'd have to say that Cailan dying was almost certainly unavoidable as soon as Loghain failed to keep him off the front lines.

 

That leads directly into your opinion as to the Wardens, the validity of which depends on whether or not we have reason to believe we know whose idea it was that they all be on the front lines with Cailan. If it was Loghain, that is indeed on his head due to his failure to keep some in reserve, but from pattern-matching with people who previously cited that as worthy of death in and of itself you're probably factoring in the literal necessity of the Wardens when you calculate that as execution. The problem is that Loghain had no real reason to believe that to be true, since it does not logically follow from any information that we had any reason to suspect Loghain was privy to. I'm not saying that Loghain was being logical. He was not. I am saying that the conclusion his non-logical mind came to as to the legend that only a Warden can kill an Archdemon is the one a logical mind would come to barring a specific reason to come to any other. (I freely admit that this argument rests on a rather major assumption as to your rationale; feel free to give your true rationale if this is not it.)

 

Blaming Loghain for the civilian deaths at Ostagar is fairer, but I don't view him as culpable enough for the death penalty (even accounting for my distaste for it.) Loghain makes clear at the Landsmeet you get to see part of before Lothering that he wants to attack the darkspawn horde again. He has the irrational idea of doing so with a mostly* Ferelden army, despite the fact that Ferelden's best attempt at raising an army has proven insufficient, but his exact words so far as I remember them are "We must defeat this darkspawn threat, but we must do so sensibly and without hesitation." It is Teagan who does not see this as the first priority. That he does nothing to attempt to placate Teagan puts some of the blame on Loghain, but once the war started I don't know what you expected him to do differently than he did. The rebel lords' lands were between him and the darkspawn. He'd have needed to move his supply trains either right through their lands or within spitting distance. I don't see how making the darkspawn his first priority was still doable at that point.

 

As for the slavery, that's out of scope. I've stated numerous times that I'm only defending Ostagar. The rest of it I agree with you was indeed heinous. I don't agree with you that it merited the death penalty, since I'm not big on capital punishment, but that's moot since I agree that the Warden was smarter to kill Loghain than to keep him in the same camp the Warden sleeps in. (To the best of my knowledge those are the only ideas anyone floats.)

 

* DA2 establishes that he went to the Free Marches for help, which I don't believe contradicts anything in DA:O; all that is made clear in the first game is that he's not accepting help from Orlais, and that he's willing to accept support from certain countries that are not Orlais. Of course, this doesn't make much difference, since Loghain's requests for aid apparently weren't getting many bites.

 

 

Anora flat out asks him did he kill her husband. He is ambiguous and evasive. Cailan being the "author of his own fate" is compatible with Loghain feeling he had no choice but to get rid of him for the good of Ferelden, similarly, to remove the wardens with Cailan as a side casualty. He says nothing about the futility of any rescue to clear his own name from blame for deliberate murder. Yet he believes he has to give - well a bit better -  account of himself to Wynne? Anora later tells the warden that Loghain murdered Cailan. He can't or won't keep Anora on side. Loghain comes across as incompetent and irrational.

 

My rationalising thing was just how I interpreted Wynne's meaning in the last line of the first one: He tied his hands behind his back to prevent himself, then later, says that it was other circumstances made it impossible, "forgetting" about the self-tied hands.

That probably is what Wynne means, now that I look, but it doesn't seem to be supported by the evidence I cited as to why the battle just wasn't winnable, and by Loghain's (apparently persistent, to judge by Cailan's tone) attempts to get Cailan out of the deathtrap. As for your interpretation of his dialogue to Anora I see no evidence against it during the scene it appears in, but I don't think there's strong evidence to support it either. In that scene or the rest of the game. I agree that Loghain's behavior looks weird at certain points if you accept my explanation for these dialogues, but I think it causes more during Ostagar itself to make sense than it causes not to.

 

As a final note, I apologize for the wall of text, but I don't think I could have done much better.

[Persephone]

*Takes a deep breath*

 

I believe that, truly, there is no set in stone "right" answer to this question.

 

The fact that Loghain Mac Tir is still dividing an entire fandom into threads discussing him for dozens of pages shows what a rich, complex, important character he is. To me, he is the most fascinating character of the franchise.

 

There are arguments to recruit him ranging from mercy/trust in Riordan to pragmatism/cruelty. And there are arguments to kill him ranging from revenge/love for Alistair to an idea of justice/principles.

 

At the end of the day, none of them matter.

 

Because Loghain's character defines how this moment plays out (Both at the Landsmeet and in the Redeemer Ending). He literally wants to die after that duel. It's not just his behavior after the duel leading up to the possible execution that confirms this. But post recruitment suicidal ideation. Treat him with contempt and he will answer with "Or what? You'll kill me? Go ahead." and his very first conversation in camp has him telling you to stab him in the back to finally have him die on you.

 

NVM how he begs you to let him deliver the final blow against the AD to atone. Or his preference of that over being forced to bed Morrigan (After that happened with his mother, this makes it beyond squicky).

 

You may decide whether or not he lives or dies.

 

But he decides whether or not dying is a punishment to him. It isn't. It is what he wants. He ad verbatim calls it "the kinder fate". The revenge of the Warden and Alistair is completely powerless, other than wounding/traumatizing an innocent woman by killing her father in front of her. (But hey, lotsa people enjoy that....gross)

 

So what's the final verdict? As I said at the beginning, there is no set in stone "right" answer.

 

I for one always spare/recruit him. Alistair will just have to suck it up & deal with it like an adult. *Shrugs*

[springacres]

*Takes a deep breath*

 

I believe that, truly, there is no set in stone "right" answer to this question.

 

The fact that Loghain Mac Tir is still dividing an entire fandom into threads discussing him for dozens of pages shows what a rich, complex, important character he is.

<snip>

THIS.  I haven't played very many RPGs (shameful, I know) but of those that I have played, Loghain is possibly the best-written antagonist I have come across.  In fact, based on this and similar threads, I may have to recruit him in playthroughs other than just my (planned) super-mean, out for himself M!Aeducan one, so I can experience more of his character.

 

<snip>

 

As for the slavery, that's out of scope. I've stated numerous times that I'm only defending Ostagar. The rest of it I agree with you was indeed heinous. I don't agree with you that it merited the death penalty, since I'm not big on capital punishment, but that's moot since I agree that the Warden was smarter to kill Loghain than to keep him in the same camp the Warden sleeps in. (To the best of my knowledge those are the only ideas anyone floats.)

<snip>

A fair point.  I'm still not certain I approve of his actions at Ostagar (in the unlikely event that Cailan HAD survived, Loghain would probably have been executed for treason because of his retreat) but you may be right about that.  The rest of it... I personally am not in favor of the death penalty, but my Wardens have to date all found reasons to disagree with me when it comes to things like selling elves and making deals with blood mages.  It's times like this when I have to remember that I'm not playing as myself.  (Which it'd be kind of hard to do, anyway.  A female pacifist character probably wouldn't get far in Thedas.)

Modifié par springacres, 30 janvier 2015 - 08:39 .

[Natureguy85]

I don't know if Loghain ordered Howe's attack on Highever, but I feel confident that he knew about it and gave it his approval. Howe was his right hand man throughout Origins so that didn't just happen after Ostagar.  As intelligent viewers, we also know that Loghain decided to quit the field as early as the end of the strategy meeting based on the framing and delivery of Loghain's line at the end. He also raises a very mild objection to the Warden's being sent to the tower, but doesn't press it. How long before this was Eamon being poisoned? I don't remember the exact timeline, but when we get to Redcliffe, the knights have been gone, searching for the Urn of Sacred Ashes, for awhile.

[Xetykins]

Seriously, if only he surrendered before the landsmeet, i wont have any problems sparing him sometimes. The fact that he needed to be backed into an absolute corner beaten to pulp and a sword on his neck is what gets me everytime. Im not a morality muppet. I've recruited Sten, Zevran even Blackwall and even like them a lot. There's just one difference Sten and Blackwall seeked their atonement without anyone forcing them. They did that on their own. Sten practically locked himself in that cage and Blackwall practically marched towards that rope. They needed to show they're willing to owe up to what they've done by themselves otherwise, its just forced and insincere. To me that's very important.

Edit. Fck, i just realized im spoiling here. I'm so sorry. I also don't know how to spoiler tag.

[Persephone]

I don't know if Loghain ordered Howe's attack on Highever, but I feel confident that he knew about it and gave it his approval. Howe was his right hand man throughout Origins so that didn't just happen after Ostagar.  As intelligent viewers, we also know that Loghain decided to quit the field as early as the end of the strategy meeting based on the framing and delivery of Loghain's line at the end. He also raises a very mild objection to the Warden's being sent to the tower, but doesn't press it. How long before this was Eamon being poisoned? I don't remember the exact timeline, but when we get to Redcliffe, the knights have been gone, searching for the Urn of Sacred Ashes, for awhile.

 

No. It's been confirmed that he neither knew of it, nor was he involved in it.

 

"We" don't "know" that at all. In fact, the writers have suggested that it was a decision made when the signal went up (too late). DAI references also confirm this, as does the cutscene following the retreat showing an already overwhelmed army.

 

Because he (logically) doesn't trust them by themselves. Reading The Calling helps to understand why he feels that way.

 

The timeline is muddled because part of that plotline (Involving Celene) was cut, which is why it's messed up. Neither Eamon NOR Teagan even came to Ostagar even though Bryce Cousland states that ALL nobles were ordered to send troops/show up. TBH though, I don't give a single damn about Eamon, so there's that too.

[dragonflight288]

Seriously, if only he surrendered before the landsmeet, i wont have any problems sparing him sometimes. The fact that he needed to be backed into an absolute corner beaten to pulp and a sword on his neck is what gets me everytime. Im not a morality muppet. I've recruited Sten, Zevran even Blackwall and even like them a lot. There's just one difference Sten and Blackwall seeked their atonement without anyone forcing them. They did that on their own. Sten practically locked himself in that cage and Blackwall practically marched towards that rope. They needed to show they're willing to owe up to what they've done by themselves otherwise, its just forced and insincere. To me that's very important.

 

That's the thing about Loghain, and Anora as well, until Loghain is defeated, he genuinely thinks he's the only one who can save Ferelden, and that's why he doesn't back down. I mean, look at what everyone else in Ferelden was doing (not us.) Nearly all the nobles were fighting a civil war, some in support of Loghain and others opposing him. Not all of them were doing it for idealistic reasons like Teagan. And yet, by the time of the Landsmeet Loghain had pretty much won the civil war and kicked all their butts, and the only ones who had enough men to make any real difference was the Wardens with the treaties, Eamon who never went to Ostagar, and perhaps a few scattered nobles. And the nobles who had pushed back Loghain were quickly overrun by the blight because they no longer had enough men to defend themselves. 

 

Take away Ostagar, and Loghain pretty much as a general and a soldier beat the best and brightest Ferelden had to offer that wasn't in the Warden's party. And when he loses the duel, that's when the realization strikes him that there is someone else capable of saving Ferelden, and he happily serves the Warden. Well, not happily unless he and the Warden become more friendly, but he does give it everything he has. 

 

As a side note, it's absolutely hilarious listening to Zevran's and Loghain's party banter. 

[Persephone]

Seriously, if only he surrendered before the landsmeet, i wont have any problems sparing him sometimes. The fact that he needed to be backed into an absolute corner beaten to pulp and a sword on his neck is what gets me everytime. Im not a morality muppet. I've recruited Sten, Zevran even Blackwall and even like them a lot. There's just one difference Sten and Blackwall seeked their atonement without anyone forcing them. They did that on their own. Sten practically locked himself in that cage and Blackwall practically marched towards that rope. They needed to show they're willing to owe up to what they've done by themselves otherwise, its just forced and insincere. To me that's very important.

Edit. Fck, i just realized im spoiling here. I'm so sorry. I also don't know how to spoiler tag.

 

That'd be political SUICIDE, nvm the risk he'd be putting his daughter under. He doesn't surrender for the same reason Eamon won't. (Even if you lose the vote)

I understand what you're saying, but the circumstances aren't comparable. Like at all. The characters above didn't have a family to protect, nvm the political circumstances and having an entire kingdom depending on you.

Loghain doesn't beg for his life or offer deals because he doesn't think he deserves atonement. (He says as much later) He wants to die. He just likened you to the one man he ever loved more than Ferelden (Maric), do you have any idea how great a compliment that is, coming from him?

And afterwards? He does more than own up. He shoulders EVERYTHING, telling you that not only was everything that went wrong his fault (Not true) but.....just to list a few quotes.....

 

Call him out on only wanting to do the US for glory......

His response? In a very subdued tone: "Glory? No. But....forgiveness, perhaps."

The Redeemer Ending with having him on Friendly:

"But I have much to atone for. And if my death can serve some purpose here, then I would greet it gladly. I would have expected you to kill me for what I did to you and you didn't. You have proven......a friend. I thought all along that only I could save Ferelden but it was you. Please, I have done so much wrong. Allow me to do one last thing right."

He doesn't just save your life and lose his. He dies and his soul is obliterated by that final blow, and he knows that too. Which means that, unlike after his execution, he will not have an afterlife in the Fade and he will never see Maric and Rowan again. Still, he will do it without hesitation. And will step back if you tell him to.

His redemption arc is one of the most sublime I have ever encountered. (Though I can't do the Redeemer ending, it's too cruel) I'm sorry but much as I love Sten and Zev......they can't compare in that department. Blackwall comes closer but......it's still not on the same level. IMHO anyway.

[Lady Artifice]

Edit. Fck, i just realized im spoiling here. I'm so sorry. I also don't know how to spoiler tag.

 

 

[ spoiler ] your text [ / spoiler ]

 

take all the spaces out inside of the brackets, and you've got your spoiler tag.

[Xetykins]

That'd be political SUICIDE, nvm the risk he'd be putting his daughter under. He doesn't surrender for the same reason Eamon won't. (Even if you lose the vote)
I understand what you're saying, but the circumstances aren't comparable. Like at all. The characters above didn't have a family to protect, nvm the political circumstances and having an entire kingdom depending on you.
Loghain doesn't beg for his life or offer deals because he doesn't think he deserves atonement. (He says as much later) He wants to die. He just likened you to the one man he ever loved more than Ferelden (Maric), do you have any idea how great a compliment that is, coming from him?
And afterwards? He does more than own up. He shoulders EVERYTHING, telling you that not only was everything that went wrong his fault (Not true) but.....just to list a few quotes.....
 
Call him out on only wanting to do the US for glory......
His response? In a very subdued tone: "Glory? No. But....forgiveness, perhaps."
The Redeemer Ending with having him on Friendly:
"But I have much to atone for. And if my death can serve some purpose here, then I would greet it gladly. I would have expected you to kill me for what I did to you and you didn't. You have proven......a friend. I thought all along that only I could save Ferelden but it was you. Please, I have done so much wrong. Allow me to do one last thing right."
He doesn't just save your life and lose his. He dies and his soul is obliterated by that final blow, and he knows that too. Which means that, unlike after his execution, he will not have an afterlife in the Fade and he will never see Maric and Rowan again. Still, he will do it without hesitation. And will step back if you tell him to.
His redemption arc is one of the most sublime I have ever encountered. (Though I can't do the Redeemer ending, it's too cruel) I'm sorry but much as I love Sten and Zev......they can't compare in that department. Blackwall comes closer but......it's still not on the same level. IMHO anyway.

Political suicide? Probably. But the land is in deep sht. Civil war and darkspawn ravaging the land. There's really no time for vanity.

Oh i've seen his sacrifice videos on youtube once. Still i think we have to agree to disagree on who's more worthy of second chances. He had too much to atone for, thousands more than Sten & Blackwall together, and and the only way he sees this is to have a blade at his throat? I'm sorry but no. In fact it makes me think more of the common people who got road crashed along his way. The families who lost everything because of his priorities. And the thousands people of Thedas who lost their sons, daughters, mother father because of his pride. They need justice too. And if you metagame and know that you really don't need him to finish the game, made it easier for me.

But i understand and respect where you are getting at :-)) unfortunately, we have to remain on the opposite side of the fence on this.

[phaonica]

Oh, noes. Please go back and fix your spoilers.

[Persephone]

Political suicide? Probably. But the land is in deep sht. Civil war and darkspawn ravaging the land. There's really no time for vanity.

Oh i've seen his sacrifice videos on youtube once. Still i think we have to agree to disagree on who's more worthy of second chances. He had too much to atone for, thousands more than Sten & Blackwall together, and and the only way he sees this is to have a blade at his throat? I'm sorry but no. In fact it makes me think more of the common people who got road crashed along his way. The families who lost everything because of his priorities. And the thousands people of Thedas who lost their sons, daughters, mother father because of his pride. They need justice too. And if you metagame and know that you really don't need him to finish the game, made it easier for me.

But i understand and respect where you are getting at :-)) unfortunately, we have to remain on the opposite side of the fence on this.

 

This isn't vanity. Things are never that neatly/clearly cut. And if that's the case, you better have a word with Eamon.....

 

If that is your argument, you'd have to execute the entire Bannorn (As they began the civil war) because blame for this doesn't solely rest with him but with the system. And it would be just as pointless as executing Loghain is for these arguments because revenge helps no one, it taints the victim as much as the wielder. Killing won't bring the dead back, it only continues a hellish cycle of violence.

 

A quote:

"Revenge is barren of itself: it is the dreadful food it feeds on; its delight is murder, and its end is despair." (Friedrich von Schiller)

 

Also I haven't said that he is MORE deserving of redemption than Sten, Blackwall or Zev. I said that his redemption arc was the most sublime of the lot.

 

Zev had to have a knife at his throat too. Sten's alternative was starving in a cage or being killed by his people as a deserter. I mean.......? All of them needed some hard prodding. But that's not really important to me.

 

To me, results matter. And I prefer redemption over killing, traumatizing an innocent woman (And a powerful ally) and depriving Ferelden of one of her greatest heroes. I'd rather mend what was torn asunder. And truly......the only one who cannot see that is Alistair. So he'll get the crown, marry the queen and grow up.

 

But I appreciate you discussing this with me in such a friendly fashion. It makes all the difference.   

 

[Xetykins]

Did ever talk to sten? He regretted what he has done as soon as he ran out of fuel. He was just sitting there and let the templars lock him. When you talk to him in the cage he said he seeks atonement by doing something good and stopping the blight is just what he seeked. If you do not mention the blight he will refuse to get out of the cage even if you leave the door open. His sword does not even come up until later. As much as he cared for his sword pretty much refered to as his "soul" his atonement is more important. If you ask him " what if i can't give you your atonement?" He answers " I will get it elsewhere" or in that context.

[Callidus Thorn]

Political suicide? Probably. But the land is in deep sht. Civil war and darkspawn ravaging the land. There's really no time for vanity.

Oh i've seen his sacrifice videos on youtube once. Still i think we have to agree to disagree on who's more worthy of second chances. He had too much to atone for, thousands more than Sten & Blackwall together, and and the only way he sees this is to have a blade at his throat? I'm sorry but no. In fact it makes me think more of the common people who got road crashed along his way. The families who lost everything because of his priorities. And the thousands people of Thedas who lost their sons, daughters, mother father because of his pride. They need justice too. And if you metagame and know that you really don't need him to finish the game, made it easier for me.

But i understand and respect where you are getting at :-)) unfortunately, we have to remain on the opposite side of the fence on this.

 

Sorry to jump in here, but it's not vanity or pride on Loghain's part. Loghain played a huge part in freeing Ferelden, and since there aren't many left of those who were making the strategic decisions back then, there aren't many left who know just how much was sacrificed, especially by Loghain himself. He's ready to make the sacrifices that others will hesitate over. Like at Ostagar. He's easily the best military commander that Ferelden has. Who's he supposed to hand off to exactly? Two Grey Wardens, one of whom has only been a Grey Warden for a very short time, and to whom Alistair defers? Arl Eamon? Who would simply hand over to Alistair where the Blight is concerned, who defers to the rookie.

 

He tells the Bannorn: "we must defeat this darkspawn incursion, but we must do so sensibly and without hesitation." The plan at Ostagar was not sensible by any means, particularly since they had nothing to go on but legends and the word of the Grey Wardens, without explanation, that they could defeat the archdemon. But anyone else in Ferelden would have followed Cailan to their deaths, and what defence would Ferelden have then? How many would die if Loghain threw himself on his sword at Ostagar, or handed over to this noble or that noble, any of whom he could best in battle?

 

Loghain is perfectly justified in refusing to surrender. Remeber that it isn't until the Landsmeet that the Warden and Alistair even find out what's necessary to stop the Blight, which proves how ill-prepared they are. They're backed by what might as well be considered a rabble; most of their forces already weakened and without a commander to match Loghain, and who've never fought together. Once the Blight is dealt with, then he can look to atonement, but while Ferelden is threatened, if he can't see anyone better able to protect it than he, why should he hand it over to someone else?

[Xetykins]

Sorry to jump in here, but it's not vanity or pride on Loghain's part. Loghain played a huge part in freeing Ferelden,

Yes I have read the stolen throne. And it does not matter his actions before, but it's not what he's doing anymore in the game. In fact, he sold some of them to slavery. In fact, now that I think of it, if the warden didnt put a stop on it, there wont be any elves left in denerim.

And i'm sorry. If not for those "rookies" Ferelden would have burned to the ground because of him.