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[springacres]

I don't know if Loghain ordered Howe's attack on Highever, but I feel confident that he knew about it and gave it his approval. Howe was his right hand man throughout Origins so that didn't just happen after Ostagar.  As intelligent viewers, we also know that Loghain decided to quit the field as early as the end of the strategy meeting based on the framing and delivery of Loghain's line at the end. He also raises a very mild objection to the Warden's being sent to the tower, but doesn't press it. How long before this was Eamon being poisoned? I don't remember the exact timeline, but when we get to Redcliffe, the knights have been gone, searching for the Urn of Sacred Ashes, for awhile.

If I recall correctly, Ser Donall mentions that Eamon fell ill before Ostagar, but I don't know how well that jives with the official timeline?  Of course, it's possible that Eamon fell ill from something else and Loghain/Jowan took advantage of this by poisoning him while he was already ill, but that may be a bit of a stretch.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And i'm sorry. If not for those "rookies" Ferelden would have burned to the ground because of him.

Nobody who has played the endgame will dispute that. What we're arguing is precisely how stupid it was for Loghain to think it was impossible for anyone except him (and especially those rookies) to have stopped Ferelden burning to the ground. I've argued several times that while I doubt Loghain rationally thought through what common wisdom thought it knew about Wardens and how it thought it knew it, I don't think he could have concluded otherwise based on anything he had reason to know if he had been thinking rationally. I don't think I've ever seen a good counterargument.

[TEWR]

 

 

That'd be political SUICIDE, nvm the risk he'd be putting his daughter under. He doesn't surrender for the same reason Eamon won't. (Even if you lose the vote)

Can't reply to all that much. at work now, but...

 

Funnily enough Eamon said that if they couldn't win he would have to surrender for the sake of Ferelden.

 

Nice to see Eamon is a man of his word. NOT.

 

(though I may be not be remembering how the lost Landsmeet plays out, since I never go the losing route)

 

If I recall correctly, Ser Donall mentions that Eamon fell ill before Ostagar, but I don't know how well that jives with the official timeline?  Of course, it's possible that Eamon fell ill from something else and Loghain/Jowan took advantage of this by poisoning him while he was already ill, but that may be a bit of a stretch.

 

 

Ser Donall's words can be adjusted to fit, but Gaider's words on the topic jives very poorly with the timeline for those who look at it enough. 

 

And that's always been my headcanon that Eamon fell ill with something else before Ostagar and Jowan/Loghain's poison capitalized on his weakened state.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Can't reply to all that much. at work now, but...

 

Funnily enough Eamon said that if they couldn't win he would have to surrender for the sake of Ferelden.

 

Nice to see Eamon is a man of his word. NOT.

 

(though I may be not be remembering how the lost Landsmeet plays out, since I never go the losing route)

The surrender he was describing when trying to convince Alistair to put himself forward as the heir to the throne seemed in context to be merely making clear to Loghain that he would not antagonize Loghain or contest his control of the country. The refusal to surrender in the Landsmeet when they've already antagonized the crap out of Loghain seems in context to be "Oh crap, he's going to execute us, fight back!" You could argue that he's being kinda hypocritical, but in context I can understand the about-face.

[Xetykins]

I wasn't even hoping for a towel down surrender. But anything to stop this game which only he was playing called cat&mouse so we can deal with the real danger thats been poking our arses and not those that are just in his mind. Anything. But the game did not give us that. So its not unnatural that by the time I reached the landsmeet, my warden is fuming. And it's pretty much a point of no return for him.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I wasn't even hoping for a towel down surrender. But anything to stop this game which only he was playing called cat&mouse so we can deal with the real danger thats been poking our arses and not those that are just in his mind. Anything. But the game did not give us that. So its not unnatural that by the time I reached the landsmeet, my warden is fuming. And it's pretty much a point of no return for him.

The scene in which Loghain greets Eamon in Denerim seems to me to have that. He's far less conciliatory than might be ideal, but he specifically tries to get Eamon to join his alliance for the sake of doing exactly what you describe for exactly that reason. He makes clear that you're not invited, which is less than optimal but understandable considering his paranoia about Orlais and the fact that for some reason that seems to be where all the Wardens Ferelden is being offered are coming from. (Loghain's paranoia about these facts and their coorelation seems understandable in turn if you look at the historical record. Though why he isn't at least considering the Godzilla Threshold option of allying with them (as Eamon did with him) is beyond me.)

[Xetykins]

My warden does not care about his paranoia though. Really she has no time for that when she has bigger headache to worry about.

Seriously I cant imagine catering to paranoid nobles after all the sht she's been though. Specially thats just immediately after Deep Roads

[dragonflight288]

My warden does not care about his paranoia though. Really she has no time for that when she has bigger headache to worry about.

Seriously I cant imagine catering to paranoid nobles after all the sht she's been though. Specially thats just immediately after Deep Roads

 

Loghain's paranoia isn't without just cause. Heck,Orlais offered to aid Nevarra during the third blight, and then never left and that's how they occupied Nevarra. Loghain personally saw Duncan's predecessor make a deal with the darkspawn (the Architect) in the Calling. 

 

And Loghain has no reason, unlike our Warden, to even think it's a blight. No scouts have seen the archdemon and no one knows why Grey Wardens are needed. 

 

And to be fair, Loghain doesn't cater to nobles either. He went to them for reinforcements, but his abrasive personality and lack of political tact threw them off, Teagan's idealistic statement cast a shadow on Loghain's own motivations, not to mention the nobles who wanted to take advantage of the power vacuum. 

 

And even if this is all ignored, there is one thing that is worth noting. Anora's life is in very real danger if he loses. If she doesn't retain her crown, she'll be deposed, and deposed monarchs never live long in history. 

[Callidus Thorn]

Yes I have read the stolen throne. And it does not matter his actions before, but it's not what he's doing anymore in the game. In fact, he sold some of them to slavery. In fact, now that I think of it, if the warden didnt put a stop on it, there wont be any elves left in denerim.

 

And if there hadn't been a civil war, then such measures might never have been taken. Every soldier who died fighting for or against Loghain was one less to fight the darkspawn. And from where Loghain's sitting, if he fails, all those elves are dead anyway. Selling them means they're just as dead, but it leaves him better able to act. Sure, it's a terrible move, but some of the things the Warden can do to gain allies are just as bad.

 

And i'm sorry. If not for those "rookies" Ferelden would have burned to the ground because of him.

 

And? We're metagaming here. We know that the Warden can win, because we're the one controlling his party. We're the heroes who are there to save Ferelden by stopping the Blight. Loghain doesn't have that knowledge, and can't. He has to act on what he sees before him: A threat to Ferelden in the form of The Blight, a potential threat from Orlais, and no-one he can hand off to except for the Warden; a person he has no reason to believe can do any better than himself, a proven commander who played a huge role in freeing Ferelden.

 

Seriously, what reasons can you give for why Loghain should have surrendered before the Landsmeet? Because things are going badly for him? That's happened before, and he still won. And we know he's sacrificed lives in the past because it was necessary for Ferelden. Because it's a Grey Warden? That only makes sense if he's been clued in on why it needs to be a Warden that strikes the killing blow. And we know that he hadn't been told that. Because they've got an army? So does he, and like I said, the Wardens army hasn't fought together, and they don't have a commander to match Loghain.

 

The simple fact is that Loghain has no reason to surrender to the Warden before the Landsmeet. Or do you think that as soon as the rest of Ferelden didn't simply follow his lead he should have thrown in the towel? And then sit around waiting to see if anyone else could save Ferelden?

[Xetykins]

As I've said his paranoia dont mean much to my warden one bit specially when I'm out of time because the map is almost all black. Obviously loghain can't see that but I sure can and its a frightening thing. And after just barely making it out alive from his assassination attempts, catering to his paranoia is the last thing on my mind. After all the shts he puts me through, come the landsmeet, i expect him to kiss my feet not the other way around :-)

[Xetykins]

Sorry I stopped reading after your defence on slavery. If he really thinks the same as you then he should start selling his own daughter first. Not someone else's.

[Callidus Thorn]

Sorry I stopped reading after your defence on slavery. If he really thinks the same as you then he should start selling his own daughter first.

 

Didn't you say on the previous page that you weren't a "morality muppet"?

 

So what do you think was Loghain's reason for selling the Elves into slavery? He's just a bastard? Doing it for kicks? Political powerplay?(In which case, against whom?) Or do you just think he's bat-**** crazy?(Which would completely undermine your entire perspective that he should have surrendered) Do you honestly think he did what he did solely for personal gain? That saving Ferelden was never his goal? Having read The Stolen Throne you know exactly how much Loghain is willing to sacrifice for Ferelden: Everything. He threw his Elves against chevaliers to save Maric, left Gwaren defenceless, and abandoned the army to save Maric when they were betrayed.

 

And seriously? "He should start selling his own daughter first"? The one move guaranteed to cause complete anarchy by removing the closest thing Ferelden has left to a ruler? Sure, because there's no way that's going to hinder an attempt to stop the darkspawn.

 

I'm sorry, I just can't take anything you post seriously anymore.

[Xetykins]

You are still obsessed on the man he once was. I get it. But in the game all his deeds did not point out to the same man on the books. Not a single trace.


No in not a morality muppet and I also explained why I found it easy yo forgive the others and not him. My statement about that subject is about your defence as to why he did it. If he really think slavery is much kinder fate to dying on your feet then he should start shipping Anora first.

[Callidus Thorn]

No in not a morality muppet and I also explained why I found it easy yo forgive the others and not him. My statement about that subject is about your defence as to why he did it. If he really think slavery is much kinder fate to dying on your feet then he should start shipping Anora first.

 

Now you're twisting what I posted. Where did you get "much kinder fate" from? I said: "Selling them means they're just as dead, but it leaves him better able to act", as in, the coin he gets for selling them is of more use fighting the darkspawn than the Elves themselves would be. If you're twisting things to this extent, I see no reason to continue this discussion.

[ConjurerDragon]

Now you're twisting what I posted. Where did you get "much kinder fate" from? I said: "Selling them means they're just as dead, but it leaves him better able to act", as in, the coin he gets for selling them is of more use fighting the darkspawn than the Elves themselves would be. If you're twisting things to this extent, I see no reason to continue this discussion.

 

Could Loghain do any worse against the Darkspawn if he would not have sold the elves? ;-)

 

Could it be any clearer how irrational he has become when he does to the elves what he fears most when it might be done by Orlesians to Ferelden?

 

And what capable general would turn away 200 good soldiers *regardless of what he planned at the fortress*? If he wanted to fight the darkspawn he could use them. If he did not trust the Orlesians 200 are not enough to overthrow Ferelden but enough to bleed against the darkspawn and save some Ferelden lives. And if he assumed an orlesian plot all the time 200 enemies less in whatever way is better than to send them back and not know where they will be in the future. .

[Persephone]

You are still obsessed on the man he once was. I get it. But in the game all his deeds did not point out to the same man on the books. Not a single trace.


No in not a morality muppet and I also explained why I found it easy yo forgive the others and not him. My statement about that subject is about your defence as to why he did it. If he really think slavery is much kinder fate to dying on your feet then he should start shipping Anora first.

 

Not my part of the discussion but I'd like to address the bolded:

 

This is untrue. Loghain, as we meet him in DAO, is still very much as he was in TST, both in his flaws and his virtues. They are merely viewed through a magnifying lens, a very biased one at that. (The Warden would have no way of seeing the "Meanwhile in Denerim" scenes)

 

What has changed?

 

He no longer has Maric by his side as a stabilizing force (Just as Loghain stabilized Maric in TST) and with both his best friends dead and gone, PTSD, survivor's guilt, suicide ideation and a broken heart take root.

 

Loghain's life has been defined by suffering and loss. (And I am not saying this to justify anything, merely to add to the very b/w picture DAO tends to paint of him pre-recruitment).

 

1. As a child, Orlesians took his beloved mabari from him, tortured her and literally threw her back at him, she died in his arms.
2. Also as a child, he had to watch, helplessly, as Orlesians gang-raped and murdered his mother
3. This and over-taxation turned him and his Dad into fugitives
4. Loghain's father and his friends sacrificed themselves so Loghain and Maric may live and escape
5. In his first battle with the rebels, he was in Cailan's shoes, knowing that the reinforcements under Rowan's father's command wouldn't come. And he accepted it.
6. At the battle of West Hill, Rowan guilted him into abandoning their army (And her father) to die because of Katriel's scheme, to save the king.
7. Said king grilled him for the decision and made him swear never to put a single man's fate above Ferelden again
8. Queen Rowan, his best friend and Canon love, dies of a wasting disease (The Blight?)
9. King Maric, the love of his life (Confirmed), disappears and though he spent years trying to find him, he is unsuccessful
10. King Cailan cheats on his daughter plans to set her aside for Empress Celene (!) because Anora isn't a good lil' baby maker, nvm that Cailan had her do his job
11. Ostagar where he did try to save Cailan but was overruled by Cailan's adoration of the Wardens (Who in their turn did NOTHING to set his head straight) while everyone at Ostagar expected him to save their asses by performing another River Dane miracle
12. And after that he is on a downwards spiral with no recourse, no one to support him, but an entire nation depending on him

Never mind everything he learns of the Wardens in The Calling (None of it is reassuring, in fact, they come across as super shady there & DAI confirmed he was right). There is A LOT to explain why he felt and acted the way he did in game without this information being brought up for CONTEXT. The whole decision would have been far more shades of grey otherwise and it's a big loss narrative wise IMHO.

 

Just something to keep in mind, I believe.

[Persephone]

Could Loghain do any worse against the Darkspawn if he would not have sold the elves? ;-)

 

Could it be any clearer how irrational he has become when he does to the elves what he fears most when it might be done by Orlesians to Ferelden?

 

And what capable general would turn away 200 good soldiers *regardless of what he planned at the fortress*? If he wanted to fight the darkspawn he could use them. If he did not trust the Orlesians 200 are not enough to overthrow Ferelden but enough to bleed against the darkspawn and save some Ferelden lives. And if he assumed an orlesian plot all the time 200 enemies less in whatever way is better than to send them back and not know where they will be in the future. .

 

There were 4 legions of Chevaliers at the border, twice as many as at the River Dane, not just 200 soldiers.

 

NVM Orlais' history with occupying countries they just wanted to "help" defend against the Blight.

[TEWR]

Now you're twisting what I posted. Where did you get "much kinder fate" from? I said: "Selling them means they're just as dead, but it leaves him better able to act", as in, the coin he gets for selling them is of more use fighting the darkspawn than the Elves themselves would be. If you're twisting things to this extent, I see no reason to continue this discussion.

 

To be fair, Loghain does use the argument "What's worse, to die without hope or live as a slave?" IIRC.

 

Or perhaps that's me not remembering the Loghain dialogues correctly. Persephone's got them memorized though so if I'm wrong she can set me straight

 

That said, there are a lot of other things brought up that must be taken into consideration, some you mentioned Callidus. First the Civil War the Bannorn started and Howe's embezzling, coupled with the lack of Lucrosians/Formari on his side, made it necessary to Loghain. Second, Loghain tells you that he would've supplied the remaining Elves once the army was fully supplied (the Warden stopped it when a few dozen Elves were shipped off and this brought the treasury back to 1/3 of its needed strength)

 

Not saying I excuse it or justify it. I merely explain the rationale behind it. And while I hold him accountable from an ethical/moral standpoint, I do understand a lot of what drove it to occur.

 

It's.... weird for me, how I feel about it. It's a crime I hold against him, but the situation that drove it to occur isn't his doing alone. Plus I think it was more Howe's idea then Loghain's. Loghain just signed off on it (which still makes him culpable)

 

Though I would say that the Wardens probably would've done the same thing. Hell, we very much can do the same thing and let Caladrius take the slaves with him.

There were 4 legions of Chevaliers at the border, twice as many as at the River Dane, not just 200 soldiers.

 

NVM Orlais' history with occupying countries they just wanted to "help" defend against the Blight.

 

Of course Riordan gives us a larger number (that makes no feasible sense and shows BW's ineptitude at writing, but it's still a different and larger number) -- two dozen divisions of cavalry.

 

Also, worth pointing out Celene admits she wanted to take control of Ferelden. The reason? Exactly what Loghain says about peace during RtO. Fighting someone else's war.

[GeorgiegGirl]

I kill him every time. If he lives I believe he can be added to your party but Alistair leaves you.

[Monica21]

To be fair, Loghain does use the argument "What's worse, to die without hope or live as a slave?" IIRC.

You know, one should really listen to what Dorian has to say about slavery in Tevinter versus living in an alienage. I'm on my phone otherwise I'd post it.

[Xetykins]

Then there's also Fenris' version of slavery. They dont match because their status are worlds apart.

[Xetykins]

Not my part of the discussion but I'd like to address the bolded:

This is untrue. Loghain, as we meet him in DAO, is still very much as he was in TST, both in his flaws and his virtues. They are merely viewed through a magnifying lens, a very biased one at that. (The Warden would have no way of seeing the "Meanwhile in Denerim" scenes)

What has changed?

He no longer has Maric by his side as a stabilizing force (Just as Loghain stabilized Maric in TST) and with both his best friends dead and gone, PTSD, survivor's guilt, suicide ideation and a broken heart take root.

Loghain's life has been defined by suffering and loss. (And I am not saying this to justify anything, merely to add to the very b/w picture DAO tends to paint of him pre-recruitment).

• As a child, Orlesians took his beloved mabari from him, tortured her and literally threw her back at him, she died in his arms.
• Also as a child, he had to watch, helplessly, as Orlesians gang-raped and murdered his mother
• This and over-taxation turned him and his Dad into fugitives
• Loghain's father and his friends sacrificed themselves so Loghain and Maric may live and escape
• In his first battle with the rebels, he was in Cailan's shoes, knowing that the reinforcements under Rowan's father's command wouldn't come. And he accepted it.
• At the battle of West Hill, Rowan guilted him into abandoning their army (And her father) to die because of Katriel's scheme, to save the king.
• Said king grilled him for the decision and made him swear never to put a single man's fate above Ferelden again
• Queen Rowan, his best friend and Canon love, dies of a wasting disease (The Blight?)
• King Maric, the love of his life (Confirmed), disappears and though he spent years trying to find him, he is unsuccessful
• King Cailan cheats on his daughter plans to set her aside for Empress Celene (!) because Anora isn't a good lil' baby maker, nvm that Cailan had her do his job
• Ostagar where he did try to save Cailan but was overruled by Cailan's adoration of the Wardens (Who in their turn did NOTHING to set his head straight) while everyone at Ostagar expected him to save their asses by performing another River Dane miracle
• And after that he is on a downwards spiral with no recourse, no one to support him, but an entire nation depending on him

Never mind everything he learns of the Wardens in The Calling (None of it is reassuring, in fact, they come across as super shady there & DAI confirmed he was right). There is A LOT to explain why he felt and acted the way he did in game without this information being brought up for CONTEXT. The whole decision would have been far more shades of grey otherwise and it's a big loss narrative wise IMHO.

Just something to keep in mind, I believe.

As I said many times I have read the two books and there I understand where he come from. I bought them immediately after I played the game because I want to know where these Hero worship comes from. And now I understand. There he was awesome but not as awesome as his father. Seriously, his past does not give him the right to do what he did in the game. But it explains his paranoia sure. Still that does not give him free pass.

And I will never see his post conscription personally in the game because he never gets to live beyond the landsmeet.

[Persephone]

As I said many times I have read the two books and there I understand where he come from. I bought them immediately after I played the game because I want to know where these Hero worship comes from. And now I understand. There he was awesome but not as awesome as his father. Seriously, his past does not give him the right to do what he did in the game. But it explains his paranoia sure. Still that does not give him free pass.

And I will never see his post conscription personally in the game because he never gets to live beyond the landsmeet.

 

I will say it again, he is still the same person in DAO. All that is missing is context. And how is his father "more awesome" than him? Because he sacrificed himself & died? I'm like.....what?

Point me to where the hell I said that it does. Because I never did & that's not the point. Like AT ALL.

 

As for the last bolded sentence? At this point all I can say is: Your loss. And that makes our discussion futile. And explains your b/w attitude towards a complex character who deserved better writers and a better fandom.

[Natureguy85]

No. It's been confirmed that he neither knew of it, nor was he involved in it.

 

"We" don't "know" that at all. In fact, the writers have suggested that it was a decision made when the signal went up (too late). DAI references also confirm this, as does the cutscene following the retreat showing an already overwhelmed army.

 

Because he (logically) doesn't trust them by themselves. Reading The Calling helps to understand why he feels that way.

 

The timeline is muddled because part of that plotline (Involving Celene) was cut, which is why it's messed up. Neither Eamon NOR Teagan even came to Ostagar even though Bryce Cousland states that ALL nobles were ordered to send troops/show up. TBH though, I don't give a single damn about Eamon, so there's that too.

 

Confirmed how, when, and by whom? If it's in the game, I don't recall.

 

When is it suggested that Loghain made the decision only after the Beacon was lit? Again, if it's in the game, I don't remember it.

 

That's fine that Loghain doesn't trust the Wardens. It fits with his paranoid character. and the history we learn from the Warden's Keep DLC. However, I shouldn't have to play optional DLC or even read side media to understand the main antagonist's actions. (I call Loghain the main antagonist because while the Archdemon and the Darkspawn are the main villains and the plot is about beating them, Loghain more actively opposes the Warden.The statement still applies if you'd put him as secondary.)

 

Duncan and Cailan have a conversation about Eamon's forces. It makes it sound like Cailan didn't want to wait for Eamon's forces, but Duncan does say the troops "can" be there, not "will", from which we could infer that Eamon hasn't sent them or won't send them without a specific request for his help. I don't know what, if anything, to take from that.

 

 

 

Edit; I just found out that the two books were published before Origins was released, unless the wiki is wrong. This was news to me. Were the books meant to supplement the game or was the game made to follow the books? It matters which is the primary media.

[Ferretinabun]

I'm pretty sure the game is the primary media.

 

If books were released before the game, I can only put that down to the extra time it takes for a game to go through production. It was cooking for over 5 years, iirc, whereas books can go from writer to bookshelf relatively quickly.