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Should Loghain Live or Die?


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#2376
TEWR

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Confirmed how, when, and by whom? If it's in the game, I don't recall.

 

Gaider said it on the forums some time ago. Not the "As for his association with Howe, Loghain hated him and Howe did a number of things behind Loghain's back" post, but an actual post that was point blank saying he wasn't responsible.

 

Alas, such a post has fallen into oblivion. I believe it was from one of the oldest parts of the old forums. I've tried to dig for it but I've never been able to find it as both google and the BSN search feature lead me to any thread that mentions any single word I type.

 

Beyond that, the time it would've taken Howe to plan such a thing means that it was happening before the Blight was even discovered (which was three weeks prior to the Human Noble origin). And Loghain would've had no reason to kill off the Couslands when there wasn't a Blight, never mind how it'd be foolish for him to kill off a family of royalists when his daughter's the queen (meaning Bryce would be loyal to the throne, if only to help keep the peace during a time of Blight).


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#2377
Natureguy85

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I'm pretty sure the game is the primary media.

 

If books were released before the game, I can only put that down to the extra time it takes for a game to go through production. It was cooking for over 5 years, iirc, whereas books can go from writer to bookshelf relatively quickly.

 

That's what I thought too, but I wanted to check. I don't like all the references to the books because the character should have been presented fully in the game. I shouldn't have to track down other sources to make sense of it.

 

Gaider said it on the forums some time ago. Not the "As for his association with Howe, Loghain hated him and Howe did a number of things behind Loghain's back" post, but an actual post that was point blank saying he wasn't responsible.

 

Alas, such a post has fallen into oblivion. I believe it was from one of the oldest parts of the old forums. I've tried to dig for it but I've never been able to find it as both google and the BSN search feature lead me to any thread that mentions any single word I type.

 

Beyond that, the time it would've taken Howe to plan such a thing means that it was happening before the Blight was even discovered (which was three weeks prior to the Human Noble origin). And Loghain would've had no reason to kill off the Couslands when there wasn't a Blight, never mind how it'd be foolish for him to kill off a family of royalists when his daughter's the queen (meaning Bryce would be loyal to the throne, if only to help keep the peace during a time of Blight).

 

Ah, so it's "Word of God" then. I was hoping for something in the narrative itself, but it is what it is.

 

Loghain may have hated Howe, but he saw the man's usefulness and kept him close.

 

Some have suggested Loghain would want the Cousland's out of the way so that he could control Highever through Howe or because a landsmeet might elect Bryce as King. Doesn't them being Royalists mean they were loyal to the Therin line? Anora is just Cailan's wife, from that point of view and they'd much more readily look to Alistair if his royal lineage was ever revealed.


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#2378
Monica21

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Gaider said it on the forums some time ago. Not the "As for his association with Howe, Loghain hated him and Howe did a number of things behind Loghain's back" post, but an actual post that was point blank saying he wasn't responsible.

 

Alas, such a post has fallen into oblivion. I believe it was from one of the oldest parts of the old forums. I've tried to dig for it but I've never been able to find it as both google and the BSN search feature lead me to any thread that mentions any single word I type.

 

I think that it's either in Why Teryn Loghain is the deepest character in Dragon Age, or The Complete Defense of Loghain Mac Tir. I did succeed in finding the latter at one point recently, but can't now. The former is over 500 pages and if there's a way to just find posts by devs, I don't know how.



#2379
TEWR

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 Doesn't them being Royalists mean they were loyal to the Therin line? Anora is just Cailan's wife, from that point of view and they'd much more readily look to Alistair if his royal lineage was ever revealed.

 

Anora is still the queen, even being referred to as such consistently throughout the game. As such, she's technically a royal

 

As for whether Bryce would be loyal to solely the Theirins or not, it's not overtly stated what their branch of royalism is, only that they fought against Calenhad at one point but swore an oath to him upon being beaten (which doesn't mean they're like Eamon in that they believe a Theirin must always rule).

 

But Bryce is still a shrewd guy. We know the Couslands are ardent royalists, and while that can mean supporting a particular dynastic claim like the Theirins, that to me speaks more of traditionalism. In the case of Ferelden, this would tie into a sentiment that the Theirin bloodline is Ferelden.

 

Me, I happen to believe that a man like Bryce, who condemns Howe for trying to use the chaos to advance himself, would stick with the throne's sole remaining monarch -- particularly since at that time, no one knew Alistair or the Warden survived, so if he knew about Alistair's existence there wouldn't be much he could do -- in an effort to prevent the realm from falling apart even further, more so since he would've been at Ostagar and seen how bad it was.

 

Assuming the battle would've gone more or less the same and that Bryce wouldn't have been able to bring Cailan under control. If Cailan had been brought under control the battle plan would've been different, as the battle plan Loghain devised was one he had to devise because Calian "wanted a battle the bards would sing of for centuries" and where a "king rides with the fabled Grey Wardens". Loghain had to make a battle plan that would satisfy Cailan's ego and lust for glory while making the best use of the information at hand and their dwindling manpower -- Note: Ostagar's structure is better served with the soldiers not on the outside.

 

If Bryce had returned to Denerim, he would've served as a calming sentiment among the Bannorn. Two Teyrns standing with Queen Anora to prevent Civil War, while corroborating each other, and Bryce serving as perhaps a chancellor to the throne (I imagine Bryce would've convinced Loghain that he need only be the Commander of the Army and Anora and he (Bryce) could handle the politics).

 

 

I think that it's either in Why Teryn Loghain is the deepest character in Dragon Age, or The Complete Defense of Loghain Mac Tir. I did succeed in finding the latter at one point recently, but can't now. The former is over 500 pages and if there's a way to just find posts by devs, I don't know how.

I managed to cut in the tack-on that allows for dev posts to be seen for the former, and none exist. I've seen the dev posts in the latter before and unfortunately it wasn't in that one (and also, some of Gaider's posts there make the timeline even worse then it already was from just in-game material).



#2380
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Some have suggested Loghain would want the Cousland's out of the way so that he could control Highever through Howe or because a landsmeet might elect Bryce as King. Doesn't them being Royalists mean they were loyal to the Therin line? Anora is just Cailan's wife, from that point of view and they'd much more readily look to Alistair if his royal lineage was ever revealed.

Debatable. Alistair is a bastard; this is heavily implied by Eamon, Teagan, and Alistair himself to be something that's supposed to put him out of the running. This is later confirmed by the conversation between Arl Bryland and Bann Ceorlic, in which Bryland brings up that his main problem with the idea of Alistair's succession is that he is a bastard; he states that it is "an ill precedent" which heavily implies it has never happened before. Ceorlic chimes in that it's better to put the Mac Tirs on the throne than Alistair, and while Ceorlic has his own reasons to support Loghain you'd expect him to get some looks at least if he wasn't expressing a pretty common sentiment. Cousland may have wanted to put a descendant of the Theirins on the throne above all else, or he might have decided that Anora really was the sensible choice... or, since I get the impression he was a relatively close relative of Maric's he might have decided that there was no better candidate than himself by blood and therefore that his duty was to run that time despite his previous refusal to do so. I really don't think we know.



#2381
TEWR

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I still maintain that if Bryce were to not side with Anora and Loghain, in the absence of Alistair he would put forth the HN, if male, as a potential spouse for Anora -- rather then try to take the throne for himself. One, being that the Couslands would likely have some Theirin blood in them (the Drydens did, after all, and they were merely arls/arlessas) and two it would secure more prestige and power for the Cousland family. It's the more politically savvy option.

 

EDIT: Hell, I think he'd probably do that even if he was working with them.


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#2382
springacres

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To be fair, Loghain does use the argument "What's worse, to die without hope or live as a slave?" IIRC.

 

 

You know, one should really listen to what Dorian has to say about slavery in Tevinter versus living in an alienage. I'm on my phone otherwise I'd post it.

 

Then there's also Fenris' version of slavery. They dont match because their status are worlds apart.

Zevran also has a few words to say about slavery in Antiva, if you recruit him (and a bit more later on, if he survives the encounter with Taliesen)

 

But as far as the elvhen Wardens I've played are concerned, they'd rather die than live as slaves.  Even if life in the Alienage or the Circle isn't exactly "freedom", they would still prefer it to being some shemlen's property.  Life among the Dalish may not be ideal either, but it's as close to true freedom as an elf can get in Ferelden.


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#2383
Xetykins

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At this point all I can say is: Your loss.


I'm sorry but killing him for the dog that he is did not feel like I've lost anything. I actually don't feel anything. He was just one obstacle I had to get rid along the way. And I never disagreed that he is a complex character. I wont be here knocking heads otherwise. Like I dont like da2 Anders yet you dont see me on any of his hate threads nor any of his threads for that matter. Our opinions on Loghain differs, but does not make your decisions on him any more valid than mine.
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#2384
dragonflight288

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Well, there is another angle we can look at, and one I don't think has been explored at all but is also central to Ferelden culture. 

 

A mabari's ability to tell if someone is good or not.

 

And my Warden's mabari gets along just fine with Loghain.  ;)


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#2385
Xetykins

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Not with mine. Mine gave Loghain a wedgie during the first meeting at Eamon's. Come the landsmeet, theyrr just circling around pissing on each other's territory :-)
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#2386
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Not with mine. Mine gave Loghain a wedgie during the first meeting at Eamon's. Come the landsmeet, theyrr just circling around pissing on each other's territory :-)

Things that the in-game evidence doesn't support: that.



#2387
phaonica

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Zevran also has a few words to say about slavery in Antiva, if you recruit him (and a bit more later on, if he survives the encounter with Taliesen)
 
But as far as the elvhen Wardens I've played are concerned, they'd rather die than live as slaves.  Even if life in the Alienage or the Circle isn't exactly "freedom", they would still prefer it to being some shemlen's property.  Life among the Dalish may not be ideal either, but it's as close to true freedom as an elf can get in Ferelden.


DAI Spoilers Ahead

Spoiler



#2388
Monica21

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DAI Spoilers Ahead

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And is much more of a player issue than a DA character issue. Understandably so, but I don't think we know quite enough about Tevinter slavery to assume it's anything like what we know of modern, real world slavery. We're very much aware of mistreated slaves like Fenris, but the slaves who are just fine with their station and, as Dorian said, can support a family, are the ones we don't hear about because there's little reason for them to appear in our games.



#2389
Xetykins

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Things that the in-game evidence doesn't support: that.


Ofc there is. I know a wedgie when i see one

#2390
Xetykins

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lets not conveniently forget that ..

Spoiler


#2391
springacres

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And is much more of a player issue than a DA character issue. Understandably so, but I don't think we know quite enough about Tevinter slavery to assume it's anything like what we know of modern, real world slavery. We're very much aware of mistreated slaves like Fenris, but the slaves who are just fine with their station and, as Dorian said, can support a family, are the ones we don't hear about because there's little reason for them to appear in our games.

It's certainly true that slavery as an institution is at least as varied as the cultures that have practiced it, possibly more so.  What makes slavery so hard for my elvhen characters to swallow, though, is how it serves to reinforce their legal status as (at best) second-class citizens subject to the wills of their shemlen rulers.


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#2392
Monica21

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It's certainly true that slavery as an institution is at least as varied as the cultures that have practiced it, possibly more so.  What makes slavery so hard for my elvhen characters to swallow, though, is how it serves to reinforce their legal status as (at best) second-class citizens subject to the wills of their shemlen rulers.

 

The city elves and the Dalish are already second-class citizens and subject to the will of human rulers.



#2393
springacres

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The city elves and the Dalish are already second-class citizens and subject to the will of human rulers.

Which is part of my point.  The existence of slavery enables the human rulers to point to countries where it exists and say, in essence, "But look how much worse it could be."



#2394
TEWR

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DAI Spoilers Ahead

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Spoiler



#2395
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Ofc there is. I know a wedgie when i see one

Current evidence seems to suggest otherwise.

 

lets not conveniently forget that ..

Spoiler

Not necessarily.

 

Spoiler



#2396
TEWR

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Well, there is another angle we can look at, and one I don't think has been explored at all but is also central to Ferelden culture. 

 

A mabari's ability to tell if someone is good or not.

 

And my Warden's mabari gets along just fine with Loghain.  ;)

 

I agree, but also we have to take into account the symbolic nature of his story with his Mabari. It represents how Orlais acts in regards to their expansionist conquests. The Mabari is considered the representative figure of Fereldan culture. The way Orlesians treated the Mabari is in and of itself a representation of how they treated Fereldans, and moreover how they treated any place they took control of.


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#2397
phaonica

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lets not conveniently forget that ..

Spoiler


Spoiler


#2398
phaonica

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Spoiler


Spoiler


#2399
Xetykins

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Spoiler


Probably. I'm just going with what I saw in the game itself and based on the conversations that I saw.

#2400
dragonflight288

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I agree, but also we have to take into account the symbolic nature of his story with his Mabari. It represents how Orlais acts in regards to their expansionist conquests. The Mabari is considered the representative figure of Fereldan culture. The way Orlesians treated the Mabari is in and of itself a representation of how they treated Fereldans, and moreover how they treated any place they took control of.

 

True.