3201 réponses à ce sujet

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Spoiler

Maybe the fact that you did the same thing Loghain did and didn't lose out big should tell you something about the relative stupidity of his plan?

 

Spoiler

The Inquisitor does not know of their necessity to kill an Archdemon, however, even if the player does, so you cannot really hold that over them. Hell, our own Warden did not know until very late in the game. Quite frankly it's strange that a Warden's sacrifice is not required to kill Cory.

 

If anyone is guilty of stupid planning, I would argue it's the Wardens.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Spoiler

I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that since the Inquisitor can exile the Wardens and everything turn out fine, that Loghain's plan to exile the Wardens was equally as likely to turn out fine?

That exiling the Wardens is generally a good plan, and it would have worked if Loghain hadn't screwed up other things?

Spoiler

No, I'm saying that it's evidence that Loghain's plan could have turned out fine. The reason Loghain's plan could not have succeeded (apart from Loghain and Howe being in charge of it) was a complete curveball that he really can't be faulted for not seeing coming. In Inquisition we see how it could have turned out without those three factors.

 

 

Spoiler

The Inquisitor does not know of their necessity to kill an Archdemon, however, even if the player does, so you cannot really hold that over them. Hell, our own Warden did not know until very late in the game. Quite frankly it's strange that a Warden's sacrifice is not required to kill Cory.

 

If anyone is guilty of stupid planning, I would argue it's the Wardens.

Spoiler

I'm not calling Loghain or the Inquisitor stupid. In fact I'm saying that the Inquisitor is proof of concept that it's not entirely stupid.

[phaonica]

Spoiler

No, I'm saying that it's evidence that Loghain's plan could have turned out fine. The reason Loghain's plan could not have succeeded (apart from Loghain and Howe being in charge of it) was a complete curveball that he really can't be faulted for not seeing coming. In Inquisition we see how it could have turned out without those three factors.

Spoiler

Exactly. Loghain has the complete dumb bad luck that the Archdemon must be killed by a Warden, but the Inquisitor has the complete dumb good luck that the dragon isn't an Archdemon after all. So the exact same decision (exiling the Wardens) leads to different outcome because of luck in the Inquisitor's favor. It's irritating.

[Persephone]

Been a very long time since I played Origins but I'll write my opinion on this matter anyway.

 

I pity Loghain a lot, but he made way too many mistakes.

 

Choosing to be a politician was the worst one. All Loghain had to do was allow Anora to rule while he leads the military. But nooo, he demanded absolute control and unquestionable obedience from everyone... despite him having little experience to rule, being of common birth and many being suspicious of him leaving the king to die. The nerve of these people! Was he honestly expecting them all to just bend over? The civil war could have been avoided. Or at least there could have been much less bloodshed.

 

Loghain wasn't only paranoid and arrogant -- he was insane. He was a madman that had to be removed. I also cannot ignore the thousands and thousands of unnecessary deaths caused by his idiocy. Therefore, my Wardens usually have him executed.

 

A lot of his supporters keep mentioning that he had a very traumatic past. I know and I completely understand, but this is a terrible point to bring up. Why? Because it points out that he's a damaged resource, therefore not worth the use.

 

Bolding mine.

 

Agreed. Or at least have her as his political advisor instead of Howe, they could have teamed up even to play Howe like a fiddle (Since they both clearly despise him).

 

That actually isn't accurate since he was Maric's regent for quite some time after Rowan died & kept the ship afloat while Maric dealt with his depression & loss and played adventurer with the Wardens.

 

No, he was expecting them to be reasonable and unite against the darkspawn (The greater and more imminent threat). The Bannorn reacted like idiots and began a civil war instead. Now, I def. agree that he could've and should've been more diplomatic but that's just not who he is. He is a general, a commander, not a politician. He has no time or patience for intrigue and diplomacy when there's an enemy to repel.

 

Except that his paranoia was well founded & proven to be accurate. Insane? I wouldn't go quite that far. He had hella lots of baggage but insane as in clinical insanity? Nope.

 

He had to step down from the regency, yes. But the many deaths that occurred weren't all caused by him, a lion's share was caused by the Wardens' negligence, secrecy and incompetence. By the Bannorn's selfish refusal to fight the darkspawn. By Howe's power grab. By Cailan's incompetence.

 

He's a human being first and foremost. Something that really doesn't sit well with me is how you seem to use pyschological trauma/damage/insanity to explain why you think he should not just be deposed but killed. That's a pretty sinister way of reasoning. There are reasons to execute him, surely, he himself would be the first to agree with that. It's just that reducing someone to a "damaged resource" and an "insane madman" who should be killed makes me very uncomfortable. That reasoning has been used in RL to commit atrocious crimes. I'm sure that wasn't your intent but as someone dealing with trauma, depression and anxiety myself, that cut very deeply.

[Natureguy85]

If Cailan had been brought under control the battle plan would've been different, as the battle plan Loghain devised was one he had to devise because Calian "wanted a battle the bards would sing of for centuries" and where a "king rides with the fabled Grey Wardens". Loghain had to make a battle plan that would satisfy Cailan's ego and lust for glory while making the best use of the information at hand and their dwindling manpower -- Note: Ostagar's structure is better served with the soldiers not on the outside.
 

 

This is true, and I wish this had been explored more, since Loghain was made to be the primary antagonist even if the darkspawn were the more serious, looming threat.

[Xetykins]

 
He had to step down from the regency, yes. But the many deaths that occurred weren't all caused by him, a lion's share was caused by the Wardens' negligence, secrecy and incompetence. By the Bannorn's selfish refusal to fight the darkspawn. By Howe's power grab. By Cailan's incompetence .

Wow, it seems that almost all of all the dirt on Loghain's boots was wiped clean. Well there's slavery but that's ok because he needed the money. Its everyone else's fault but the one actually doing the atrocity.

[Persephone]

Wow, it seems that almost all of all the dirt on Loghain's boots was wiped clean. Well there's slavery but that's ok because he needed the money. Its everyone else's fault but the one actually doing the atrocity.

Wow, seems like you entirely missed my point?

 

I said that he isn't entirely to blame & listed why. (These reasons being supported by in game Canon)

 

And please point me to where I made that excuse about slavery, I dare you. Because I never did.

 

Yeah, saying that this was more a result of circumstances and more than one man's misguided decisions is rendering him blameless.

 

Lemme say it again, with bolding to help: But the many deaths that occurred weren't all caused by him, a lion's share was caused by the Wardens' negligence, secrecy and incompetence. By the Bannorn's selfish refusal to fight the darkspawn. By Howe's power grab. By Cailan's incompetence .

 

I didn't even bring up the slavery at all in the part you chose to quote?

[Elhanan]

Wow, seems like you entirely missed my point?
 
I said that he isn't entirely to blame & listed why. (These reasons being supported by in game Canon)
 
And please point me to where I made that excuse about slavery, I dare you. Because I never did.
 
Yeah, saying that this was more a result of circumstances and more than one man's misguided decisions is rendering him blameless.
 
Lemme say it again, with bolding to help: But the many deaths that occurred weren't all caused by him, a lion's share was caused by the Wardens' negligence, secrecy and incompetence. By the Bannorn's selfish refusal to fight the darkspawn. By Howe's power grab. By Cailan's incompetence .
 
I didn't even bring up the slavery at all in the part you chose to quote?

Welcome back!

While the Warden's do have to bear the burden of their own secret society, as Regent and Commander, Loghain has to shoulder the responsibility for Howe, the Bannorn's reaction, and even Cailan's poor training, if extant. The guilt may not be as direct, but is till present due to the responsibility for command.

[Xetykins]

So just so we are clear. Its the wardens thats doing the killing physically because of their secrets? Negligence of what? In origins they died killing darkspawn, not other people. And their secrets made that loghain do what he did? The bannorn will not bow down to someonr who steals their land and call himself king loghain. Deffo to a man who cant control the people around him. And the bannorn did not see the actual horrors of the darkspawn. Would they take the word of a usurper about that? You said it was confirmed somewhere that orlais did have a plot. 15 years later into inquisition and it still did not happen yet while the darkspawn was the clear and present danger in origins.

And i touched the slavery topic since you pretty much wiped his dirt on everyone else i was surprised you did not wipe that one on someone too.

[Elhanan]

So just so we are clear. Its the wardens thats doing the killing physically because of their secrets? Negligence of what? In origins they died killing darkspawn, not other people. And their secrets made that loghain do what he did? The bannorn will not bow down to someonr who steals their land and call himself king loghain. Deffo to a man who cant control the people around him. And the bannorn did not see the actual horrors of the darkspawn. Would they take the word of a usurper about that? You said it was confirmed somewhere that orlais did have a plot. 15 years later into inquisition and it still did not happen yet while the darkspawn was the clear and present danger in origins.

And i touched the slavery topic since you pretty much wiped his dirt on everyone else i was surprised you did not wipe that one on someone too.

If the Warden's allowed their secrets to be revealed, more would know they could sense Darkspawn, Archdemons, and are required to kill one permanently. But the whole 'Die in 30 yrs' thing might hurt recruiting....

[Xetykins]

If the Warden's allowed their secrets to be revealed, more would know they could sense Darkspawn, Archdemons, and are required to kill one permanently. But the whole 'Die in 30 yrs' thing might hurt recruiting....

Or that there's a big chance you'll die in the joining. And if you survive you will most likely be forever having nightmares and those arent bad enough you'll also have to die killing the archdemon. And since blights could be years apart, you'll have to turn into a ghoul or die in the deep roads. And if you're female you'll turn into a brood mother. Pretty sucky to be a warden idd. Not the kind of recruitment banner you wave around and expect huge amount of volunteers.

[Elhanan]

Not certain that a female Warden can be reshaped into a Darkspawn, as they are already infected with the Taint. And the secret to surviving the Joining is to fall in the correct direction; the other way is all but certain death.

Agreed, it ain't the most attractive incentive package, but one I would prefer to be made known for actual volunteers.

[Persephone]

So just so we are clear. Its the wardens thats doing the killing physically because of their secrets? Negligence of what? In origins they died killing darkspawn, not other people. And their secrets made that loghain do what he did? The bannorn will not bow down to someonr who steals their land and call himself king loghain. Deffo to a man who cant control the people around him. And the bannorn did not see the actual horrors of the darkspawn. Would they take the word of a usurper about that? You said it was confirmed somewhere that orlais did have a plot. 15 years later into inquisition and it still did not happen yet while the darkspawn was the clear and present danger in origins.

And i touched the slavery topic since you pretty much wiped his dirt on everyone else i was surprised you did not wipe that one on someone too.

 

Let me explain further then:

 

In DAO, we learn that Wardens sense darkspawn and they in turn sense the Wardens, Alistair says as much. We further learn in RTO that Cailan wanted to kill Archie with Maric's sword & was never told that this may not be a great idea.

 

Now, army & formation. This is where their responsibility & negligence AND secrecy comes in: Given that they were ALL clustered at the Vanguard in a "Come hither & kill us" formation AND had the king among them (Whom they really should've warned), maybe pointing out that this formation can only lead to disaster would've been smarter? (Hint: It would have been smarter) Aka: "Spread us across the board so we can help more effectively." You can say as much without revealing a single Warden secret and the odds would've been far less high, the king would've been in less danger and.......... Well, BioWare never was any good at writing warfare and politics, they needed a "big betrayal" & shoehorned it in. I'm not letting them get away with that though. (NVM the delayed signal destroying the entire vice or hammer/anvil stratagem)

 

That got plenty of people, including themselves harmed/killed. Casualities of war even before the signal went up (too late).

 

No. Had they been less secretive (Doesn't mean you have to blab EVERYTHING, aka shortened lifespan, blood magic Joining that may kill ya), esp. given their shady history, they would have been trusted more. Even Duncan tells the Warden that they're not trusted & for good reasons but also hopes that "Loghain will make all the difference." (No pressure lol)

 

Except he didn't steal their land nor declare himself king. He told them to unite, so they could march against the darkspawn. Which was, you know, more important than their hurt pride. What happened in the civil war was horrific, no question. But that's not what we're discussing right now.

 

Yeah, they didn't because they disobeyed their king & didn't send troops. Which makes me esp. angry at Teagan for snapping at his (grieving) queen even though he never was at Ostagar in the first place.

 

He is not a usurper. His daughter named him her regent, she was there & gave him her support because then she still trusted him. It's not like Loghain is a jumped up greenhorn general Fereldan soldiers/nobles didn't know. He is the Hero Of River Dane, the Teyrn Of Gwaren, ruled Ferelden as regent when Maric was incapable.....so yes, his word def. carries weight.

 

It was confirmed in DAII, DAI, The Masked Empire and Witch Hunt. It's political logic, nvm Orlais' history with occupying countries they just wanted to "help" against a Blight. Or Gaspard's expansion plans. Or Celene's plotting regarding Cailan.

 

No, you used the slavery as an "I win" card to end the argument. Even there more elements were involved, I.E. Howe bleeding the treasury dry and purging the Alienage in the first place.

 

BUT once more and clearly to the point: What I am saying is not to clear Loghain from his guilt or to delegate blame. It is to show that these things are far less b/w than originally perceived. It is easier to paint it in b/w, evil/good like Alistair does for example because that leaves little room for doubt or self examination. But what makes Loghain and his character so fantastic AND so controversial almost six years later is how layered, how complex, how morally gray his character is.

 

Which is why he and he alone is still so hotly debated, not even Anders can claim as much. That's an achievement in the character and writing department. It's why he was the only DA character making it into the Top Ten Gaming Characters of the Decade list Game Informer did.

 

None of this means you have to like him/support him/recruit him. It just means that reducing him to such simple labels is unnecessary. It cheapens one of the few complex antagonists/characters this franchise actually has.

[Xetykins]

Not certain that a female Warden can be reshaped into a Darkspawn, as they are already infected with the Taint. And the secret to surviving the Joining is to fall in the correct direction; the other way is all but certain death.Agreed, it ain't the most attractive incentive package, but one I would prefer to be made known for actual volunteers.

Which probably be once in a blue moon :')

[Xetykins]

Let me explain further then:
 
In DAO, we learn that Wardens sense darkspawn and they in turn sense the Wardens, Alistair says as much. We further learn in RTO that Cailan wanted to kill Archie with Maric's sword & was never told that this may not be a great idea.
 
Now, army & formation. This is where their responsibility & negligence AND secrecy comes in: Given that they were ALL clustered at the Vanguard in a "Come hither & kill us" formation AND had the king among them (Whom they really should've warned), maybe pointing out that this formation can only lead to disaster would've been smarter? (Hint: It would have been smarter) Aka: "Spread us across the board so we can help more effectively." You can say as much without revealing a single Warden secret and the odds would've been far less high, the king would've been in less danger and.......... Well, BioWare never was any good at writing warfare and politics, they needed a "big betrayal" & shoehorned it in. I'm not letting them get away with that though. (NVM the delayed signal destroying the entire vice or hammer/anvil stratagem)
 
That got plenty of people, including themselves harmed/killed. Casualities of war even before the signal went up (too late).
 
No. Had they been less secretive (Doesn't mean you have to blab EVERYTHING, aka shortened lifespan, blood magic Joining that may kill ya), esp. given their shady history, they would have been trusted more. Even Duncan tells the Warden that they're not trusted & for good reasons but also hopes that "Loghain will make all the difference." (No pressure lol)
 
Except he didn't steal their land nor declare himself king. He told them to unite, so they could march against the darkspawn. Which was, you know, more important than their hurt pride. What happened in the civil war was horrific, no question. But that's not what we're discussing right now.
 
Yeah, they didn't because they disobeyed their king & didn't send troops. Which makes me esp. angry at Teagan for snapping at his (grieving) queen even though he never was at Ostagar in the first place.
 
He is not a usurper. His daughter named him her regent, she was there & gave him her support because then she still trusted him. It's not like Loghain is a jumped up greenhorn general Fereldan soldiers/nobles didn't know. He is the Hero Of River Dane, the Teyrn Of Gwaren, ruled Ferelden as regent when Maric was incapable.....so yes, his word def. carries weight.
 
It was confirmed in DAII, DAI, The Masked Empire and Witch Hunt. It's political logic, nvm Orlais' history with occupying countries they just wanted to "help" against a Blight. Or Gaspard's expansion plans. Or Celene's plotting regarding Cailan.
 
No, you used the slavery as an "I win" card to end the argument. Even there more elements were involved, I.E. Howe bleeding the treasury dry and purging the Alienage in the first place.
 
BUT once more and clearly to the point: What I am saying is not to clear Loghain from his guilt or to delegate blame. It is to show that these things are far less b/w than originally perceived. It is easier to paint it in b/w, evil/good like Alistair does for example because that leaves little room for doubt or self examination. But what makes Loghain and his character so fantastic AND so controversial almost six years later is how layered, how complex, how morally gray his character is.
 
Which is why he and he alone is still so hotly debated, not even Anders can claim as much. That's an achievement in the character and writing department. It's why he was the only DA character making it into the Top Ten Gaming Characters of the Decade list Game Informer did.
 
None of this means you have to like him/support him/recruit him. It just means that reducing him to such simple labels is unnecessary. It cheapens one of the few complex antagonists/characters this franchise actually has.

Ok sooooo kill all wardens to the last 2 surviving that was running for their lives because of their secrets? Kill anything he does not understand. Lets say that they tell people some of their secrets. Where does it stop? They will be grilled again and again for the rest of the information grilled, bullied or or tortured most probably i mean look at Riordan. Once some info comes out, it will not stop there. People will demand more and more.

But their secrets aren't really the reasons why he wanted to annihilate them all isn't it? Just pure paranoia. I am not labelling anything but call him for what he is.

And yes he was stealing lands, or trying to. My warden killed his men so no land. And yes he was king loghain, didn't you meet his emersary in orzammar? It's king loghain this and king loghain that. His own representative to meet up with orzammar ruler if they had one called him king loghain.

And for the hostile Orlesian take over? Ferelden is.at it's weakest, so taking over it by force without needing an excuse would have been easy. But 15 years later, still not happening. The only thing that came close was Gaspard talking about it.

You're mad at Teagan for snapping at his grieving queen? What about his grief for loosing his nephew, and his king and then someone struts in and demand total obedience? These are nobles, nobles that were obviously not at Ostagar who has seen the horror first hand. They won't just immediately lick his hand. Teagan is as decent as they come imho. What about the people who are grieving for their families? Like people in Lothering whom Loghain abandoned to burn? Well he did not really abandon it. Just left a few of his lackeys for one reason only. To kill the wardens.

And I thought we're discussing Loghain's motives here and not how fantastic he is?

[Persephone]

Ok sooooo kill all wardens to the last 2 surviving that was running for their lives because of their secrets? Kill anything he does not understand. Lets say that they tell people some of their secrets. Where does it stop? They will be grilled again and again for the rest of the information grilled, bullied or or tortured most probably i mean look at Riordan. Once some info comes out, it will not stop there. People will demand more and more.

But their secrets aren't really the reasons why he wanted to annihilate them all isn't it? Just pure paranoia. I am not labelling anything but call him for what he is.

And yes he was stealing lands, or trying to. My warden killed his men so no land. And yes he was king loghain, didn't you meet his emersary in orzammar? It's king loghain this and king loghain that. His own representative to meet up with orzammar ruler if they had one called him king loghain.

And for the hostile Orlesian take over? Ferelden is.at it's weakest, so taking over it by force without needing an excuse would have been easy. But 15 years later, still not happening. The only thing that came close was Gaspard talking about it.

You're mad at Teagan for snapping at his grieving queen? What about his grief for loosing his nephew, and his king and then someone struts in and demand total obedience? These are nobles, nobles that were obviously not at Ostagar who has seen the horror first hand. They won't just immediately lick his hand. Teagan is as decent as they come imho. What about the people who are grieving for their families? Like people in Lothering whom Loghain abandoned to burn? Well he did not really abandon it. Just left a few of his lackeys for one reason only. To kill the wardens.

And I thought we're discussing Loghain's motives here and not how fantastic he is?

 

Would you please, please stop twisting everything I say and not put words in my mouth?

And you realize that your scenario of them being pressed for more will likely come to pass, esp. after what they pulled in DAI? Riordan wasn't locked away for the secrecy though. Anyway, that's not the point.

 

Given their track record in The Calling & even before that, I can't blame him one bit for being "paranoid" about them. IDK where this need to defend the Wardens comes from either, they're just.....not that great? (Heck, even The Warden can commit atrocities to end the Blight, some of which cannot be avoided) I mean, DAO had them borderline worthy of suspicion but The Calling & DAI showed that Loghain's "paranoia" was really close to reality. Was he wrong? Yes. But he didn't owe the Wardens anything, be it loyalty or fealty. Yet, when recruited, he gives both, even as far as death (NVM his arc in DAI). But why derail to his treatment of the Wardens now? We weren't discussing that?

 

You mean the (ridiculous) Chantry Quest "Loghain's Push"? That was AFTER the Civil War had begun and it wasn't so much about land as about troops. I can't take that quest seriously though, it's one of the most badly written ones I've ever encountered.

 

No, he wasn't. He was Regent. No more, no less. The emissary at Orzammar is the ONLY person in the entire game to call him that and likely did so to persuade the guard to let him in. Loghain makes it very clear that Anora is queen and that he leads her armies/supports her as her regent (As he did with Maric) in this chaos. He never declared himself king, nor does he wish to be king.

 

It wasn't all that easy, besides Celene didn't want to take over by force but by marriage. Gaspard later decided to do so by force. However, the civil war in Orlais put expansion plans on hold.

 

Yes, I am mad at him for treating his queen so rudely and lacking basic decency when it comes to dealing with someone who is trying to reach out to him. Ofc he grieved for Cailan but that should make him more sensitive to Cailan's widow mourning him as well rather than using that to twist the knife. And yes, a Regent has the right to demand obedience, esp. in a matter so urgent.

Nobody asked them to do that, simply to use their brains & get their priorities straight. But these short sighted fools fought over trees before, so I guess it's only logical for them to negate the darkspawn threat but to use Ostagar as a punching ball? You can't have it both ways.

You mean the people the Warden also has to abandon to burn? Because, as brought up by Leliana, the greater good outweighs saving them, as tragic as it is? And because in war, you cannot save everyone? Lothering had a Bann who left his people, he could have provided aid. He didn't. Said Bann followed the army to Denerim, but we don't know what he did there. So....?

 

We apparently aren't discussing his motives, you are PA snapping at me, derailing & putting words into my mouth. This discussion isn't going anywhere at this point. Because I cannot do more than say that while I believe ABC & back it up with in game canon, there are reasons to decide either way at the Landsmeet. You've never even recruited him once, you seem to despise him. So let's cut this short here.

 

I will say one last thing though. Yes, he is fantastic. A deep, complex, rich character with a backstory spanning 5 decades, a personality not easily defined and his allure hasn't waned in almost six years. Like him or not, but that's quite the achievement. And now I'm done discussing this with you. We're just never gonna agree on a single thing re: his character & so let's acknowledge that & move on.

[Monica21]

Ok sooooo kill all wardens to the last 2 surviving that was running for their lives because of their secrets? Kill anything he does not understand. Lets say that they tell people some of their secrets. Where does it stop? They will be grilled again and again for the rest of the information grilled, bullied or or tortured most probably i mean look at Riordan. Once some info comes out, it will not stop there. People will demand more and more.

But their secrets aren't really the reasons why he wanted to annihilate them all isn't it? Just pure paranoia. I am not labelling anything but call him for what he is.

And yes he was stealing lands, or trying to. My warden killed his men so no land. And yes he was king loghain, didn't you meet his emersary in orzammar? It's king loghain this and king loghain that. His own representative to meet up with orzammar ruler if they had one called him king loghain.

And for the hostile Orlesian take over? Ferelden is.at it's weakest, so taking over it by force without needing an excuse would have been easy. But 15 years later, still not happening. The only thing that came close was Gaspard talking about it.

You're mad at Teagan for snapping at his grieving queen? What about his grief for loosing his nephew, and his king and then someone struts in and demand total obedience? These are nobles, nobles that were obviously not at Ostagar who has seen the horror first hand. They won't just immediately lick his hand. Teagan is as decent as they come imho. What about the people who are grieving for their families? Like people in Lothering whom Loghain abandoned to burn? Well he did not really abandon it. Just left a few of his lackeys for one reason only. To kill the wardens.

And I thought we're discussing Loghain's motives here and not how fantastic he is?

 

Loghain's only experience with the Wardens was when they almost got Maric killed and worked with the Architect to turn humanity into blighted creatures. So yeah, paranoia. He has no knowledge of why the Wardens exist or what their purpose is, but he is very aware of their past behavior. What's the best prediction of future behavior? Past behavior.

 

I think you're confusing "stealing land" with "trying to win a civil war." Winning a civil war necessitates taking land and putting the loser under your thumb so that you can then use the loser to, you know, fight the darkspawn.

 

The Orlesian takeover was not going to be hostile. Loghain was right that it was planned, but wrong about how.

 

I think "not at Ostagar" is really the important bit here. They were not at Ostagar so they didn't see the hoard and didn't see what Loghain's forces were actually facing. And you know, I like Teagan. But, I won't say that anyone but Teagan was responsible for the civil war. Teagan (also not at Ostagar) questioned Loghain's retreat. Again, Loghain was the one who said, "We will defeat this darkspawn incursion," to which Teagan replied, "The Bannorn will not bow to you simply because you demand it." Was Loghain ham-fisted about it? Yes, but Teagan was also kinda dumb.

[Xetykins]

I think good ol' Teagan got loghain sassed out and rightly so. That's why he spoke out. God bless his cotton socks.

[TEWR]

It's gotten to the point that I don't even need to read Persephone's arguments or Monica's arguments or other Loghain defenders' arguments. I just know I'll like them.

[Callidus Thorn]

It's gotten to the point that I don't even need to read Persephone's arguments or Monica's arguments or other Loghain defenders' arguments. I just know I'll like them.

 

Personally, I'm wondering why anyone even bothers responding to Xetykins anymore.

 

It's a dead end argument. It doesn't matter what you cite from the games or the books, Xetykins' opinion is not going to change, is barely even based on the game or books, and revolves around the assertion that Loghain is aparanoid lunatic, tyrant, and so on and so forth, and bears no resemblance whatsoever to Loghain in The Stolen Throne or The Calling, despite the fact that the game disagrees with that.

 

Add to that the way Xetykins argues, and it's just a farce. If the whole point of this thread is to discuss Loghain, why bother talking to someone who basically refuses to discuss the character?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I think good ol' Teagan got loghain sassed out and rightly so. That's why he spoke out. God bless his cotton socks.

Suppose that Teagan was right about Loghain's motives. So what?

 

This is not the time for Civil War. There are darkspawn in Ferelden. When Eamon says that Loghain needs to be taken down bloodlessly, and that if that can't be done they need to surrender to Loghain, he is (barring the out-of-nowhere revelation of the US) entirely right. If Loghain can't be taken down bloodlessly (which, given the US, it's lucky he can be), he needs to be taken down after the darkspawn are so as not to waste men on him that could be better spent. If Loghain can't be taken down bloodlessly before the war and he's too entrenched after the war, (or if it becomes clear he needs to die before the war is over because he's absolutely going about this the wrong way, which in context of the US would be the case) send the Crows. The only reason they support Loghain is because they think he can handle the Blight; when he outlives or turns out to have never had usefulness the Guerrins probably get a discount.

 

 

Personally, I'm wondering why anyone even bothers responding to Xetykins anymore.

 

It's a dead end argument. It doesn't matter what you cite from the games or the books, Xetykins' opinion is not going to change, is barely even based on the game or books, and revolves around the assertion that Loghain is aparanoid lunatic, tyrant, and so on and so forth, and bears no resemblance whatsoever to Loghain in The Stolen Throne or The Calling, despite the fact that the game disagrees with that.

 

Add to that the way Xetykins argues, and it's just a farce. If the whole point of this thread is to discuss Loghain, why bother talking to someone who basically refuses to discuss the character?

I like hearing myself talk.

[Xetykins]

Personally, I'm wondering why anyone even bothers responding to Xetykins anymore.

It's a dead end argument. It doesn't matter what you cite from the games or the books, Xetykins' opinion is not going to change, is barely even based on the game or books, and revolves around the assertion that Loghain is aparanoid lunatic, tyrant, and so on and so forth, and bears no resemblance whatsoever to Loghain in The Stolen Throne or The Calling, despite the fact that the game disagrees with that.

Add to that the way Xetykins argues, and it's just a farce. If the whole point of this thread is to discuss Loghain, why bother talking to someone who basically refuses to discuss the character?

And here you are killing all my fun.
When people can point out any of loghain's heroic deeds in game instead of one screw up after another, before people gets the option to chop off his head in the landsmeet then I'd listen more. Or not trying to hang his actions on someone or something.

[Elhanan]

I believe Loghain should die, and have contended this for many, many years. I also believe Loghain is my favorite cRPG villain; deep, rich, and should be allowed to live at least once to examine the backstory. Then allow him to sacrifice himself....

[Monica21]

And here you are killing all my fun.
When people can point out any of loghain's heroic deeds in game instead of one screw up after another, before people gets the option to chop off his head in the landsmeet then I'd listen more. Or not trying to hang his actions on someone or something.

 

He retreats at Ostagar to save the rest of Ferelden's forces instead of sending them all to die in a lost cause. There. Heroism 101.