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Same here. I never gave it much thought, to be honest, the first time I played. Later, I wondered...but still thought probably not. I try my best not to assume sexuality on anyone unless I'm told. Even if someone is dating a person of a particular gender, they still could be bi/pan/demi or what have you.
Yeah, I could see that argument about Wade and Herren. However, at least from my perspective, it wouldn't have been an issue at all to me because they would just be two more of the, literally, dozens of named NPCs who were getting slaughtered. If the gay couple were the only ones to get slaughtered, then I'd look side-eyed at the game. But killing the gay couple along with every single other named NPC in Denerim? Not an issue in my eyes. Just my opinion though.
Serendipity came up at PAX Prime too, both from developers and fans, as a poor representation of trans people.
Let me start with a disclaimer: I have no desire to be offensive at all, and if this post offends someone because of my ignorance I'll remove it. I'm looking for clarification in an era outside my personal knowledge, so know that if I put a foot in my mouth it was unintentional.
Anyways, I keep hearing this about Serendipity being a joke at the expense of trans people, and I totally get that bit. However, was it ever said specifically that Serendipity is in fact trans? My first impression was always that she was a drag queen, hence the sort of over-the-top performance. Was this possibly the intention? If so, would that make her portrayal less/more offensive?
I believe David has said she was intended to be a male in drag but that intent doesn't really matter.
It was perfectly reasonable to see her as transgender, and her portrayal in the game was unintentionally offensive. (And even if she were just in drag, that's still no cause to make a joke of her.)
But perhaps it would have been different if she were explicitly identified, who can say?
Thanks for sharing you two. I think I understand a little better now.
Let me start with a disclaimer: I have no desire to be offensive at all, and if this post offends someone because of my ignorance I'll remove it. I'm looking for clarification in an era outside my personal knowledge, so know that if I put a foot in my mouth it was unintentional.
Anyways, I keep hearing this about Serendipity being a joke at the expense of trans people, and I totally get that bit. However, was it ever said specifically that Serendipity is in fact trans? My first impression was always that she was a drag queen, hence the sort of over-the-top performance. Was this possibly the intention? If so, would that make her portrayal less/more offensive?
Gaider says that Serendipity was supposed to be a drag queen, but didn't have the assets to properly show that. The first and only known transexual in Dragon age is Maevaris Tilani.
I believe David has said she was intended to be a male in drag but that intent doesn't really matter.
It was perfectly reasonable to see her as transgender, and her portrayal in the game was unintentionally offensive. (And even if she were just in drag, that's still no cause to make a joke of her.)
But perhaps it would have been different if she were explicitly identified, who can say?
I'm beating a dead horse here, but they never made a joke of her. There was a dialogue bug that caused her to use the dialogue if her and hawke had slept together regardless of if that had happened. Not a joke, not a In insult, a bug. The results (apparently) were very offensive, but that's not the point.
Well, I think that this is just one of those things that people will have to agree to disagree about. Some people get offended by things that others don't. It doesn't mean that the person who gets offended is being too sensitive and it doesn't mean that the person who doesn't is being ignorant. It's just that people experience things differently.
I wasn't offended by Serendipity, but I do think that she was a bit of a joke character. She was either trans or drag (clearly intended as drag, but people thought of her as trans); she was a pretty lady with a deep manly voice; she was a sex worker; and there was the whole bugged conversation issue. I don't think that Bioware intended for people to be offended by her, but I can see why they do.
Frankly, I don't think it's a big issue at this point because the point has been raised and the devs have stated that they kind of regret how she came across. I'm confident that, if there is another drag queen or transgendered character in DA: I, he or she will be treated with more respect.
Gaider says that Serendipity was supposed to be a drag queen, but didn't have the assets to properly show that. The first and only known transexual in Dragon age is Maevaris Tilani.
Isn't Tim Curry in DA:O? 
Isn't Tim Curry in DA:O?
I see what you did there.
Isn't Tim Curry in DA:O?
I actually watched Rocky Horror like four hours ago. lol.
As a gay transman (yes we do exist!) , it's nerve-wracking to see the trans* community made out to be a joke. I loved Maevaris; she's the first positive portrayal of a transwoman I've seen in a fantasy franchise and gives me hope. 
As a straight Man myself I hope Bioware continues adding more same-sex Lis and other couples as well I freaking loved Wade and Herren they are in my Top Five Origins Characters. Everyone should have as much fun as I am and thats my belief anyway.
I wish B-Ware would have made Traynor Bi in ME3 I fell for her immediatly but alas it was not to be 
Weird reading this thread. There are points being made about things I'd never encountered (played DA2 more than a dozen times, never went to bed with Serendipity, never got the bugged convo in MotA, always viewed him as a drag queen) and points about Herren and Wade that I'd never considered, (I'd pegged both as gay, but not as a couple!)
Just goes to show that, as in real life, "Ya' don't always know...", and "People are mistaken." (in both senses. )
To address one of the OP's points:
No, the Keep will not accommodate mods. It has its own internal logic to prevent conflicting plot states from being set, and indeed that's the point of the Keep to begin with--to get rid of all the logic bugs and false positives which have crept in over the last two games.
As to whether the Keep itself can be modded, I honestly have no idea. Modding DAI to accommodate your previous mods, however, would indeed be your only option. The moment we tried to accomodate any modded world states with the Keep, the (rightful) expectation would be that the game itself also did so...and it will not. So there's no way we can do that. Whether there will be any kind of support to make modders have an easier time to make those changes in the future, I can't really say. Right now all I know is that we have enough of a challenge on our plate to simply get the Keep to work.
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
To me, Wade and Herren had a Burt and Ernie thing going on. I could see why people would think they were a couple, but I can also easily see them as just friends or business partners in context. I don't assume people are a couple unless it's stated, though.
Some of us knew Burt and Ernie were gay a decade ago
(yes, I'm actually serious)
As for Wade and Herren, I'm with eluvianax (Sp???) here, I thought he was quirky but didn't realize he was gay.
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
It should be pointed out that there's no relationship between Bioware's view as a company and their actions in developing the games, It's entirely possible for them to be supportive in their statements while messing up the implementation - which is what happens, occasionally, despite that goodwill. Some of the examples were above. It's entirely valid that people can criticise the way LGBT content is handled even while Bioware is, overall, doing a pretty good job.
Where I think they would disagree with you is in even having the option to disagree with homosexuality. I think this is exceedingly unlikely to happen. Not just at Bioware, but at pretty much every major game developer, and the situation is getting better, not worse. Say what you like about changing cultural values, but I think it's getting to the point where the industry as a whole feels rather strongly about this sort of stuff.
I'll remind you that Dragon Age's lead writer is a gay man.
So I'm not inclined to think that Bioware's actions in developing their games, DA in particular, are negative towards gays.
And I think you're right on that last paragraph: moral thought is slowly being combined with business, until one day we'll live in a world where Ford Motor Co. has an opinion on moral matters.
*I genuinely did not even know this was a thing until a minute ago.
Edit: And, I'm bumping a dead topic. My apologies.
"THIS gay man doesn't have a problem, so why do YOU, other gay man? Maybe your connection to the hivemind is faulty."
Now for the sexuality thing. Bioware has depicted every non-straight character so far as being promiscuous, yes Morrigan says that she has had many men however She is perhaps the straight romance (that I can think of) in the series who has had casual sex. As a gay man myself playing these games it comes across as Bioware thinking that all non-straight people just have sex, sex, sex and more sex. I'm not a stereotype and my sexuality isn't something to be fetishised.
I have no issues with anyone who want to engage in casual sex and I think it is good that Bioware are representing those people in their games, but this isn't my true issue. What I do not appreciate that I haven't been represented in any of the games so far in the romances, I like many of my fellow LGBT people are not all sex crazed 24/7 casual sex, sexy sex. I guess this is somewhat of a rant because i'm feeling that Bioware has the mindset at we are all like that, I hope that isn't the case but after so many Bioware games, that's how it feels and that's rather sad. With so many people consuming video games I feel that Bioware is perpetuating a stereotype which is an issue and speaking for myself, as someone who over the years has had people give me the look of being genuinely surprised when i've corrected them in saying that i'm still a virgin because they've assumed I must have had lots of sex based on my sexuality alone (some more of the werido ones which refused to believe me when I tried correcting them). I don't want Bioware to stop making promiscuous characters, I just want them to stop making them ALL that way, especially the men. I ended up romancing Merrill in DA2 out of spite because my only choices where Anders or Fenris
. (though I will admit that she's super cute and sweet with such a nice accent).
Ok, I get where you are coming from. As a gay man, I can strongly relate to stereotyping homosexual "behaviour" in games, and particularly the DA franchise. To an extent it is true that promiscuity seems to accompany some of the Bisexual/Homosexual characters in the games so far. But then again, it is very hard to escape from such a stereotype, mainly because of context. This is a fantasy medieval setting. While it would be nice to depict a proper, "normal" gay character as just a normal human being that seeks meaningful love, it is very, very hard (at least for me) to completely and openly justify it in such a setting. Dragon Age, despite all the dragons and magic and darkspawn and what not, still needs to retain a sense of realism in order to relate to the players. If historical parallels and context are to play any role in this game, then we have to consider the historical parallels in our real world. Medieval times - generally a bad time to go around professing love to people of the same gender (definitely not recommended). Adding to that the fact that gay people are a minority, it becomes harder. In fact, being sexually promiscuous in the past might have made it easier to find other people with the same "interests". While others are dismissing you as a ****** or a gigollo, you are in fact worse (in their eyes), by seeking same-sex love, but you are masking this behaviour with promiscuity. So, in a fantasy setting with monarchy, nobility, fanatical zealots, a class system etc., it must be hard to go about such business openly, not to mention it is rare to find a person with the same inclinations (even in real life).
I actually quite oppose any decisions to make romancable options "player-sexual" or generally bisexual, unless they incorporate a more complex system of romance development in DA:I . With all of the above in mind, I think to have a proper, "normal" gay or lesbian in the game, in a medieval setting, is to have a person that is very reluctant to share anything about personal life or preferences, someone who would make the player sweat to even start a romance - again, because the social context should (I think) be punishing to characters in such a game setting. I know it doesn't sound fun, but for me realism is fun. I would rather have to work to make that handsome hunk/sexy lady open up to my character and "come out", and let the romance flower, than have a promiscuous bisexual hitting on me randomly when my character is just being polite. I don't know how other gay and lesbian players perceive this kind of things, maybe they think having a higher rate of meeting gay and lesbian characters in the game quite realistic. It can be fun, but for me the game world is a reflection of the social mores of the real world, and the real world is a really shitty place to be gay. Apart from North America and Western Europe, the "bastions" of rights and support for LGBTQ people, Eastern Europe and the rest of the world is insanely homophobic. History, especially medieval, is ripe with homophobia. One way to integrate that sort of "gritty" realism into a fantasy game is to make it more complex, to make it harder (but more rewarding for the player) for romancable characters to come out. This is what to me will make Dragon Age a truly complex and satisfying game to play. Of course, turning to the "player-sexual" option is definitely easier, and maybe for now it will be a nice substitute, given how complex the game is already 
I don't expect the game to cater to all of my needs and preferences, and I certainly don't mind having less bi/gay/lesbian options.
As long as it's engaging, believable and interesting, I'm happy, even if it doesn't provide me with the "perfect" option, with my prince charming. I accommodate myself to the game and take it for what it is, and hopefully in the future (DA:I maybe? ) we will see romancing becoming more complex and nuanced
This is a fantasy medieval setting. While it would be nice to depict a proper, "normal" gay character as just a normal human being that seeks meaningful love, it is very, very hard (at least for me) to completely and openly justify it in such a setting. Dragon Age, despite all the dragons and magic and darkspawn and what not, still needs to retain a sense of realism in order to relate to the players. If historical parallels and context are to play any role in this game, then we have to consider the historical parallels in our real world. Medieval times - generally a bad time to go around professing love to people of the same gender (definitely not recommended). Adding to that the fact that gay people are a minority, it becomes harder. In fact, being sexually promiscuous in the past might have made it easier to find other people with the same "interests". While others are dismissing you as a ****** or a gigollo, you are in fact worse (in their eyes), by seeking same-sex love, but you are masking this behaviour with promiscuity. So, in a fantasy setting with monarchy, nobility, fanatical zealots, a class system etc., it must be hard to go about such business openly, not to mention it is rare to find a person with the same inclinations (even in real life).
The only issue that I have with this comparison is that you are taking one particular aspect of a historical setting (i.e. the homophobia, for lack of a better word) and applying it to a fictional setting that is similar, but you are forgetting the major drive for the homophobia to begin with: religion. Most rigid homophobia can be traced back to religious doctrine (whether accurately so or not). The reason why s/s relationships weren't accepted until the past 40 years or so was because the very influencial non-secular pressures.
In Thedas, the dominant religious entity is the Chantry and, from what we've seen, the Andrastean religion doesn't have any official stance either way on s/s relationships. So without that same pressure, it's not fair to draw that comparison. The pressure for nobility to reproduce would still be there, but not the out and out persecution, which is ultimately what drove people to hide their sexuality for hundreds of years. The lore dictates that s/s relationships are seen merely as a quirk of character, so unless a person is determined to not be seen as quirky in any way, there would be no reason for them to hide their sexuality.
Ha. My major issue is that he conflates promiscuity with being "abnormal", and as being antithetical to finding "meaningful love".
Ha. My major issue is that he conflates promiscuity with being "abnormal", and as being antithetical to finding "meaningful love".
Fair enough. Perhaps, "My only issue" should have read, "A major issue". I was trying to be diplomatic, though.
The only issue that I have with this comparison is that you are taking one particular aspect of a historical setting (i.e. the homophobia, for lack of a better word) and applying it to a fictional setting that is similar, but you are forgetting the major drive for the homophobia to begin with: religion. Most rigid homophobia can be traced back to religious doctrine (whether accurately so or not). The reason why s/s relationships weren't accepted until the past 40 years or so was because the very influencial non-secular pressures.
In Thedas, the dominant religious entity is the Chantry and, from what we've seen, the Andrastean religion doesn't have any official stance either way on s/s relationships. So without that same pressure, it's not fair to draw that comparison. The pressure for nobility to reproduce would still be there, but not the out and out persecution, which is ultimately what drove people to hide their sexuality for hundreds of years. The lore dictates that s/s relationships are seen merely as a quirk of character, so unless a person is determined to not be seen as quirky in any way, there would be no reason for them to hide their sexuality.
A valid point. But being a "quirk" I am still not convinced it is seen in any positive light. Tolerated for sure, but ridiculed perhaps? Mocked? And don't regard religion as the only drive. The social elite usually has a large role to play in defining the morals and tendencies of societies at a given time. Maybe Orlais is more relaxed on such issues, let's say, but I think there are a lot of parts of Thedas that wouldn't look kindly upon such practices, wasting the opportunity to produce offspring (especially for elves, who can only prolong their race by mating exclusively with their kind). But mind you - I didn't say anything about persecution or violence. Rather, social derision and criticism, but not extreme intolerance, if that makes sense.
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