443 réponses à ce sujet

[daveliam]

A valid point. But being a "quirk" I am still not convinced it is seen in any positive light. Tolerated for sure, but ridiculed perhaps? Mocked? And don't regard religion as the only drive. The social elite usually has a large role to play in defining the morals and tendencies of societies at a given time. Maybe Orlais is more relaxed on such issues, let's say, but I think there are a lot of parts of Thedas that wouldn't look kindly upon such practices, wasting the opportunity to produce offspring (especially for elves, who can only prolong their race by mating exclusively with their kind). But mind you - I didn't say anything about persecution or violence. Rather, social derision and criticism, but not extreme intolerance, if that makes sense.

 

Yeah, but we haven't seen any derision of s/s relationships from the nobility.  In fact, the only characters who have shown any even remotely negative reactions to s/s relationships are Oghren and Gamlen.  Both show the stereotypical:  "Ew, which one is the girl?" reaction to m/m relationships; and the "that's hot" reaction to f/f relationships (which is particularly disturbing in Gamlen's case, given that it's his niece that he's objectifying.....).  In fact, within the nobility, we have one great example of a noble family that is perfectly fine with the s/s relations of their youngest child:  the Couslands.  I found it totally endearing and really awesome that Fergus comments in a positive way on the Warden's relationship (if that's what you want to call it) with Darrien or Iona.  He was totally fine with his younger brother or sister being in a s/s relationship and treated it like any other older brother would, which was refreshing to see and, I think, a big sign that Thedas has different views than Earth.

 

So I'm just not sure why it would be justified in Thedas.  We don't have one of the major driving influences to create this outlook and we have no evidence up to this point that there are really any negative views on s/s relationships outside of the two examples that I mentioned.  I do think that perhaps it could be interesting to explore it within the different races:  reproduction for the species continued existence for elves and dwarves; reproduction for a family line for humans with a noble lineage; sex without reproduction for qunari.  But I don't think that these would create a situation like you were describing where people are hiding or being shamed because of their sexuality.

[Dobyk]

Yeah, but we haven't seen any derision of s/s relationships from the nobility.  In fact, the only characters who have shown any even remotely negative reactions to s/s relationships are Oghren and Gamlen.  Both show the stereotypical:  "Ew, which one is the girl?" reaction to m/m relationships; and the "that's hot" reaction to f/f relationships (which is particularly disturbing in Gamlen's case, given that it's his niece that he's objectifying.....).  In fact, within the nobility, we have one great example of a noble family that is perfectly fine with the s/s relations of their youngest child:  the Couslands.  I found it totally endearing and really awesome that Fergus comments in a positive way on the Warden's relationship (if that's what you want to call it) with Darrien or Iona.  He was totally fine with his younger brother or sister being in a s/s relationship and treated it like any other older brother would, which was refreshing to see and, I think, a big sign that Thedas has different views than Earth.

 

So I'm just not sure why it would be justified in Thedas.  We don't have one of the major driving influences to create this outlook and we have no evidence up to this point that there are really any negative views on s/s relationships outside of the two examples that I mentioned.  I do think that perhaps it could be interesting to explore it within the different races:  reproduction for the species continued existence for elves and dwarves; reproduction for a family line for humans with a noble lineage; sex without reproduction for qunari.  But I don't think that these would create a situation like you were describing where people are hiding or being shamed because of their sexuality.

 

Fair enough, I haven't played the Human Noble origin, so thanks for bringing up this example In that case there really is no evidence (so far) to believe that, in general, s/s relationships are frowned upon. With the exception of Oghren and Gamlen perhaps, it seems at least humans are pretty chill about it (unless it comes to the need to have heirs of course). I also hope they explore these issues further with the elves and the dwarves, especially with the Dalish and the Noble Caste dwarves. I think perhaps for these two races, and these two specific social groups, it would in fact matter quite a bit, seeing that they are bound to tradition and a need to produce offspring. Thanks for the responses

[daveliam]

I also hope they explore these issues further with the elves and the dwarves, especially with the Dalish and the Noble Caste dwarves. I think perhaps for these two races, and these two specific social groups, it would in fact matter quite a bit, seeing that they are bound to tradition and a need to produce offspring. Thanks for the responses

 

I almost always play as a gay male dwarf noble on my DA: O playthroughs now.  And I usually still sleep with Mardy in order to produce an heir.  I head canon it that Lord Aeducan would have pressure to produce a son, especially if Trian is really going to be overlooked by the Assembly.  So he figures that he can "get it over with" by sleeping with a Noble Hunter and recognizing the child officially, then he would be free to pursue whatever romantic interests he desires, since he wouldn't have pressure to marry Mardy.  I would have loved to have seen some dialogue around that when you return to Orzammar.  Especially given that I came back with my male elf lover.  Why don't Mardy, Harrowmont, Bhelen, or Zevran comment on the fact that Lord Aeducan is a gay father?  That would have been a great place for just a few lines of dialogue from each that would shed some more light on how the dwarves and elves view s/s relationships. 

 

I also played a single City Elf origin and played her as a lesbian who was really not feeling the idea of an arranged marriage to a guy.  I was a little disappointed that there wasn't a "But I'm not into men, father!" option in the dialogue.  That would also have given some room for her father to explain what his thoguhts on the matter would be.

[Spirit Keeper]

So many news posts. Darn Uni tearing me away from the forums, never again D8

[In Exile]

A valid point. But being a "quirk" I am still not convinced it is seen in any positive light. Tolerated for sure, but ridiculed perhaps? Mocked? And don't regard religion as the only drive. The social elite usually has a large role to play in defining the morals and tendencies of societies at a given time. Maybe Orlais is more relaxed on such issues, let's say, but I think there are a lot of parts of Thedas that wouldn't look kindly upon such practices, wasting the opportunity to produce offspring (especially for elves, who can only prolong their race by mating exclusively with their kind). But mind you - I didn't say anything about persecution or violence. Rather, social derision and criticism, but not extreme intolerance, if that makes sense.

 

Read up on historical Japan. There was certainly a normative type of sexual relationship among the upper-class, but by moderns standards it most definitely not heterosexual. 

[Silcron]

I am against the retcon of Alistair or Morrigan or any character really. The ratio was bad? Well make a better ratio in the newer games. My point is character. If there is to be homosexual characters I want them to be homosexual (see Traynor for example) not heterosexual or homosexual that will change their sexuality on the basis of what the player wants. With that idea in mind I'd say that there are more bisexual characters (just because they are playersexual, but if we take the idea as them being attracted to the player, despite gender, the conclusion is that they are bisexual, and just happen to fall for the PC) than homosexual in the DA series.

Don't get me wrong, I don't say bi characters should be removed, I'm just saying that if a character is to have one sexuality, it should stay like that not change on the basis of what the player wants. That is what mods are for, to change the product from the vision of the company who made it into yours. I'd say mods are just fanfiction in the same sense as if I take an electronic book and edit it to something I like better.

This idea can also be applied to other thing. If a character is designed to not be sexually attracted to the PC, let it stay that way. I like that you have companions who you cannot romace (see Varric). Maybe he will be in DA:I, but that's fine with me, if the PC was still Hawke and suddenly he was romanceable, then I'd have a problem. Let the characters be themselves in the official game, then mod it if you want, nothing wrong with that.

Edit: so h-omo is censured? Well I can see why. Oh well, I'll be less lazy and type sexual

[daveliam]

I am against the retcon of Alistair or Morrigan or any character really. The ratio was bad? Well make a better ratio in the newer games. My point is character. If there is to be homosexual characters I want them to be homosexual (see Traynor for example) not heterosexual or homosexual that will change their sexuality on the basis of what the player wants.

 

Has this ever been a problem in a Bioware game?  I'm not aware of any character whose sexuality changes.....

[AlanC9]

Has this ever been a problem in a Bioware game?  I'm not aware of any character whose sexuality changes.....

Alenko comes to mind. There's no evidence of him being anything but straight in the released version of ME1. The same might be true about Anders; it's been a while since I played DAA.

[daveliam]

Alenko comes to mind. There's no evidence of him being anything but straight in the released version of ME1. The same might be true about Anders; it's been a while since I played DAA.

 

Neither Kaidan nor Anders were confirmed as heterosexual.  People assumed they were heterosexual, but it was never confirmed.

[Silcron]

Has this ever been a problem in a Bioware game? I'm not aware of any character whose sexuality changes.....

Oh as far as I know Bioware haven't done this, which I'm really happy about. It was more an answer to the OP's petition of puting the Alistair mod into the Keep.

[ElitePinecone]

Alenko comes to mind. There's no evidence of him being anything but straight in the released version of ME1. The same might be true about Anders; it's been a while since I played DAA.

 

Showing interest in women does not make you straight.

 

It might make people assume you're straight, but you can't determine a person's sexuality until they tell you. And maybe even they don't know.

[SilkieBantam]

Okay seriously I don't care how people mod their games but you broke lore by putting a mage on the throne of Fereleden. So you can't be too angry if the Keep doesn't accommodate your lore breaking decision to put a mage on the throne.

[LoudAngryJerk]

its my understanding that on PC they might add some kind of import feature. That being said they have said theyre going to have a version something similar to the genesis comic thing from mass effect except WAY more in depth. 

 

didn't actually read this one but its newer and seems to have more info

http://www.ign.com/b...keep.453313121/

 

 

[AlanC9]

Showing interest in women does not make you straight.
 
It might make people assume you're straight, but you can't determine a person's sexuality until they tell you. And maybe even they don't know.

So the argument isn't just that Bio has never retconned any character's sexuality, it's that it's conceptually impossible for Bio to do so.

[Darth Krytie]

So the argument isn't just that Bio has never retconned any character's sexuality, it's that it's conceptually impossible for Bio to do so.

 

Yes.

[Mockingword]

So the argument isn't just that Bio has never retconned any character's sexuality, it's that it's conceptually impossible for Bio to do so.

By George, I think he's got it!

[TKavatar]

So even a person like Oghren can't be considered straight now because he could theoretically be repressing his homosexuality...for some reason.

[Nashiktal]

Why would he be repressing it? Not showing interest, and repressing his feelings are two different things. We can assume Oghren is straight, but if he started showing interest in a man that would not be considered a retcon as we had no concrete evidence of him being just straight.

Now if Oghren mentioned at some point not being interested in men then there might be an argument for a retcon.

Could you please explain to me what is not understood?

[Allan Schumacher]

I am against the retcon of Alistair or Morrigan or any character really. The ratio was bad? Well make a better ratio in the newer games. My point is character. If there is to be homosexual characters I want them to be homosexual (see Traynor for example) not heterosexual or homosexual that will change their sexuality on the basis of what the player wants.

Frankly it's also a factor of "what the developer is comfortable with."  I think it's very safe to say that this type of content is something we're much more comfortable doing than we did with DAO.  If it comes down to moving a character in a direction that we thinks works based on what that character has done versus the assumptions of how the character must be based on the things players see, I'm not particularly married to a hardline perspective of "Well they didn't explicitly come across this way in an older game, so we absolutely cannot do it now."

 

The only place where I'd have reservations is if it was explicitly stated that a character was or was not interesting in a particular fashion, and then we changed that.  So if Morrigan were to be a lesbian in DAI, that would come across weird.  If she was bisexual, it's not something that I'd care too much about, because the only "evidence" for her not being a bisexual is that she didn't have romance content with a female in DAO.  Except... such content wasn't even written in.  It's not that Morrigan refuses the advances of a female Warden.  The game doesn't even let you try.

[ElitePinecone]

So the argument isn't just that Bio has never retconned any character's sexuality, it's that it's conceptually impossible for Bio to do so.

 

It's not impossible, but unless a character runs around screaming about how straight they are, we can never be sure of their sexuality. Expressing attraction towards women does not preclude also being attracted to men, unless every character is solidly at one end or the other of the Kinsey scale. 

 

Even in Kaidan's case, which you mentioned, nothing he said about relationships with women in ME1 rules out his also being attracted to men. It's hardly a retcon for him to be bisexual when he was never established as straight. 

 

(And if you *did* think he was straight, that's an issue of perception, not fact. Perhaps we're conditioned to assume heterosexuality by default, I don't know.)

[Mockingword]

Hahahahahaha.

 

Yes. "Perhaps". XD

[TKavatar]

Why would he be repressing it? Not showing interest, and repressing his feelings are two different things. We can assume Oghren is straight, but if he started showing interest in a man that would not be considered a retcon as we had no concrete evidence of him being just straight.
Now if Oghren mentioned at some point not being interested in men then there might be an argument for a retcon.
Could you please explain to me what is not understood?

He is disgusted at the thought of m/m relationships (Nathaniel playfully flirts with him and he's like NO) while he finds lesbian relationships (Branka and Hespith) to be hot.

So can he be considered straight or is he 'repressing' his homosexuality/bisexuality?

[ElitePinecone]

I think it varies by culture and age. As LGBT people are becoming more visible and probably more common, I think there's a welcome trend away from those kind of heteronormative assumptions. 

[daveliam]

He is disgusted at the thought of m/m relationships (Nathaniel playfully flirts with him and he's like NO) while he finds lesbian relationships (Branka and Hespith) to be hot.

So can he be considered straight or is he 'repressing' his homosexuality/bisexuality?

 

I tend to think the Gamlen and Oghren are pretty much the only guys that I would feel comfortable saying are 100% straight and that's due to their "Ew, gross.  Which one is the girl?" reactions to a s/s Warden and Hawke.  So I actually agree with you that if Oghren were to show up and be bisexual in a future game, I'd scratch my head at that one. 

 

But, outside of them, yes, the argument stands that simply expressing interest in one gender over another in the past does not indicate no interest in the other gender at some point as well.  I've never seen Kaidan or Anders as retcons because neither of them stated that they were straight in past games.

[Spirit Keeper]

I tend to think the Gamlen and Oghren are pretty much the only guys that I would feel comfortable saying are 100% straight and that's due to their "Ew, gross.  Which one is the girl?" reactions to a s/s Warden and Hawke.  So I actually agree with you that if Oghren were to show up and be bisexual in a future game, I'd scratch my head at that one. 

 

But, outside of them, yes, the argument stands that simply expressing interest in one gender over another in the past does not indicate no interest in the other gender at some point as well.  I've never seen Kaidan or Anders as retcons because neither of them stated that they were straight in past games.

Thaaaaaaaaank you! My god do people get butthurt over gay or bi characters. This is a comment I made of Youtube in response to someone complaining over Kaidan being Bi in ME3

 

"I don't get what peoples' problems are with Shepard and Kaidan being attracted to men in ME3 is. I mean, what? If they were bi then they should have been wearing 'I like chicks and dicks' t-shirts? Shepard can be Asexual in the series too if you choose, I don't see people complaining that Shepard doesn't accounce that he doesn't like sex with either gender.

Kaidan in ME1 talks about women and romance in the context of the conversation. He mentions Rahna when talking about his past when asked. He talks about preferring adventurous women when specifically asked about Liara. He doesn't HAVE to say "I prefer more...adventurous women....oh and also men".

As most people know Male Shepard can be in a romance with Kaidan since Mass Effect 1, the dialogue is there it's just inaccessible unless you have the PC version. Media will always suffer from the times it was created in and people around ME1s release where super bitches about anything not straight (which a lot of people still are). I should also mention that not only is Kaidan+MShep accessible in the PC release but Bioware has a perfectly working romance conversation between the two on Horizon in ME2 when the romance is imported into the game AND extra recorded dialogue between MShep and Kaidan on Mars when the romance is imported from 2 to 3 (since a romance between the two on Mars could ONLY have happened if imported anyway). So it's not like Bioware was unaware that people were doing the same sex romance and finished and/or added content into both ME2 and ME3 for these players.

People need to stop assuming that any non-straight man instantly tells everyone, everything about them and their sexual preferences. Kaidan and Shepard not sucking off all the male crew members, have rainbows coming out of their asses or speak in camp voices in the first game doesn't mean they can't be gay or bi or pan.

On a side note the Asari are a race of pansexuals not bisexuals."

 

I think that pretty much sums up what I think is wrong with people's perceptions of LGBT character.