443 réponses à ce sujet

[daveliam]

Thaaaaaaaaank you! My god do people get butthurt over gay or bi characters. This is a comment I made of Youtube in response to someone complaining over Kaidan being Bi in ME3

 

 

To be honest, I understand why a person who has little experience with bisexuals might have a hard time understanding this concept at first.  It does kind of fly in the face of typical heteronormative practices.  Gender and sexuality are latent constructs (i.e., complex invisible aspects), but people want them to be manifest constructs (i.e., something that you can see) so they assign sexuality onto a person with whatever information they have.  Once they've done that, they've categorized that person in a particular way (whether accurate or not) and it's jarring at first to see that the category doesn't fit given new information.

 

What I don't understand are the people who have had this conversation numerous times on the board and either refuse to accept it ("I say he's straight so that's that!") or act as if they have never been told that sexuality doesn't have to happen in manifest way.  That's the part that gets a little frustrating to me.  If you just don't know, then that's one thing.  If you know, but pretend not to or reject it altogether, I get frustrated.

[Spirit Keeper]

To be honest, I understand why a person who has little experience with bisexuals might have a hard time understanding this concept at first.  It does kind of fly in the face of typical heteronormative practices.  Gender and sexuality are latent constructs (i.e., complex invisible aspects), but people want them to be manifest constructs (i.e., something that you can see) so they assign sexuality onto a person with whatever information they have.  Once they've done that, they've categorized that person in a particular way (whether accurate or not) and it's jarring at first to see that the category doesn't fit given new information.

 

What I don't understand are the people who have had this conversation numerous times on the board and either refuse to accept it ("I say he's straight so that's that!") or act as if they have never been told that sexuality doesn't have to happen in manifest way.  That's the part that gets a little frustrating to me.  If you just don't know, then that's one thing.  If you know, but pretend not to or reject it altogether, I get frustrated.

I understand why people want to bury their heads in the sand. Because they are at best, Idiots. Or at worst bigots. 

 

It's a good thing that, for the most part, the world is evolving without need of their approval.

[Captain_Harkness]

 Be warned, this is a big read. I like to go into detail when I say or explain something. Feel free to skim 

 

I play the series on PC and have modded characters. In DA:O I was a Male, Human Noble Mage. My character was gay and romanced Alistair and they became kings of Ferelden. Because of save importing, Awakening and DA2 recognised that my Warden was a: Male, b:Human Nobel c: Mage d:Gay e:Romanced Alistair in an s/s relationship and rules the country together (It was nice seeing Alistair come to meet his king in Awakening dawww :3). Bodahn referred to the marriage in DA2.

So since it seems save importing won't be in DA:I (though I have seen tweets from...however long ago, saying that they were hoping to implement save importing) i'm afraid they won't have the options to recreate my Gay Warden/Alistair pairing using the keep. I only mention this because even though I did it though modding, BECAUSE DA:O, DA:A and DA2 used save importing, it still recognised everything. I'm not sure how aware the Dragon Age team at Bioware is of modding, especially went to comes to same sex romances, but if they are going to go for The Keep only then I really would like FULL control over the options I use to create the save. Don't just lock me into HAVING to pick a female rogue/warrior in order to have married Alistair and become his joint ruler. Let me recreate my gay noble mage who is married to Alistair as the kings of Ferelden. If The Keep method is a bust then I guess i'll just have to cross my nuts that save importing happens. Note: see my post on page 4 to clarify this topic.

 

As for the engine thing. My character in DA:O and DA2 was a mage Warden/Hawke and I wore many different armours (the DA2 templar armour, Hawke Mage Champion armour, Sebastian's armour and the regalia of weisshaupt etc. for both games) and used a greatswords, staves (Starfang, Parthalan etc again through modding). Since it may be impossible to mod DA:I i'm worried that we'll lose so much custom content, i'm thinking specifically ported armour and weapons which is how I was able to use all those items in both of the games so far.

I guess i'm scared that in trying to ship a beautiful game they will be cutting out user creativity which as been a staple of PC gaming for so many years in Bioware games. My first ever mod was for the first Knights of the Old Republic game and I finally got round to making a DA2 mod.

 

 

Now for the sexuality thing. Bioware has depicted every non-straight character so far as being promiscuous, yes Morrigan says that she has had many men however She is perhaps the straight romance (that I can think of) in the series who has had casual sex. As a gay man myself playing these games it comes across as Bioware thinking that all non-straight people just have sex, sex, sex and more sex. I'm not a stereotype and my sexuality isn't something to be fetishised.

 

Aveline: woman - Does the whole marriage before sex thing.

Merrill: woman - Isn't stated to be promiscuous. Her whole clan hates her and she doesn't exactly seem like a people person.

Alistair: Straight male - Virgin.

Sebastian: Straight male: Chaste.

Anders, Zevran, Fenris, Isabela, Leliana also are promiscuous for differing reason but at the end of the day all of them are non-straight and they are all promiscuous.

 

I have no issues with anyone who want to engage in casual sex and I think it is good that Bioware are representing those people in their games, but this isn't my true issue. What I do not appreciate that I haven't been represented in any of the games so far in the romances, I like many of my fellow LGBT people are not all sex crazed 24/7 casual sex, sexy sex. I guess this is somewhat of a rant because i'm feeling that Bioware has the mindset at we are all like that, I hope that isn't the case but after so many Bioware games, that's how it feels and that's rather sad. With so many people consuming video games I feel that Bioware is perpetuating a stereotype which is an issue and speaking for myself, as someone who over the years has had people give me the look of being genuinely surprised when i've corrected them in saying that i'm still a virgin because they've assumed I must have had lots of sex based on my sexuality alone (some more of the werido ones which refused to believe me when I tried correcting them). I don't want Bioware to stop making promiscuous characters, I just want them to stop making them ALL that way, especially the men. I ended up romancing Merrill in DA2 out of spite because my only choices where Anders or Fenris  . (though I will admit that she's super cute and sweet with such a nice accent).

 

Edit/Note/Thing: I don't think anyone so far as misinterpreted what I have said about the sexuality part yet, this is good and I thank all for not doing that since it probably has to highest potential to be a hot topic, again thanks. Still I do what to make this part just a bit more clear for new people who come across this thread so they don't misinterpret. I have no issues with characters like Isabela, Anders, Zevran being in the game, I think their inclusion is a good thing and makes the games more realistic. What my issue is that for a progressive company like Bioware, the idea of a non-straight character not wanting to have casual sex doesn't seem to have crossed their minds. Search 'tvtropes - All Gays Are Promiscuous' to get a better feeling on my issues. I feel non-straight people are being stereotyped and that bothers me as someone who isn't like that.

 

However I am still looking forward to playing Inquisition and playing as a blood mage, hopefully i'll finally be able to change people's minds on blood magic so they won't kill me. My heart almost stopped when Wynn right in front of Greagoir
and Irving, accused me of using blood magic....which I was. I convinced them I wasn't but I reloaded to see where it would go. I told them I was using blood magic and then Greagoir tried to arrest me. I had to kill Wynn, Irving, Greagoir, the mages, the templars. Never again, it was horrible.

First, I don't think any here really need to hear about your sexual history or lack thereof. Second, I think your reading way to much into the fact that the more promiscuous characters in the game happened to be gay or swing both ways. My last point is that it's a bit unreasonable to expect Bioware to include ANYTHING for something that was not put into their previous games by them. Support in a sequel for a modded story is completely unrealistic

[efd731]

I will shank whoever necro'ed this thread. It deserves a dirt nap.

[Spirit Keeper]

First, I don't think any here really need to hear about your sexual history or lack thereof. Second, I think your reading way to much into the fact that the more promiscuous characters in the game happened to be gay or swing both ways. My last point is that it's a bit unreasonable to expect Bioware to include ANYTHING for something that was not put into their previous games by them. Support in a sequel for a modded story is completely unrealistic

I have more posts explaining this on one of the pages in this thread (the keep situation). As for the sexuality thing, I don't think i'm looking to deep into anything, the stereotyping is plain to see and right there on the surface. It's an issue with media as a whole and Bioware is no different or better when it comes to it. Even Game of Thrones decided to stereotype gay men when the book didn't. It's frustrating and there is no such thing as a god stereotype.  

[efd731]

Well, I'm pretty sure most gods are stereotyped as all-powerful absentees with a penchant for vengeance and hypocrisy.
And I think you're missing the forest for the trees sovereign. Zevran is promiscuous. He is not so because he is bisexual. They exist independently as traits. He happens to be a bisexual, who was thrown into the lap of luxury(crows get what they want) given his choice of booze, drugs, sexual partners, and developed a hedonistic lifestyle. It's not like it's "I like boys and girls and sleep around a lot" because reasons.
Edit: I know you meant good,

[Tielis]

I didn't read through the whole thread because I got annoyed at all the pitchforks, but I am a straight ally and I support everything you've said, OP.

 

I think what a lot of people forget is that this isn't a book or movie where the characters are the characters and they are set in stone.  This is an interactive video game.  Once these characters are released to the public, they are OURS to do with what we will (for our own selfish pleasure).    They cease to belong to the writers.  I am a jewelry designer by trade.  If one of my customers buys one of my pieces and then changes it strictly because they like to wear it that way, I have no problem with that.  My ego is not in charge of my art, unlike some BioWare writers.

 

I gave up on my Dalish Mage playthrough because I, too, am afraid that it will not last throughout the series.  

 

We are not asking that other people's canon be changed.  We are asking that the Keep simply respect the choices we've made for games played on our own machines!

[AlanC9]

You should probably read the Bio comments. Looks like they've already rejected the idea.

[ladyoflate]

I didn't read through the whole thread because I got annoyed at all the pitchforks, but I am a straight ally and I support everything you've said, OP.

 

I think what a lot of people forget is that this isn't a book or movie where the characters are the characters and they are set in stone.  This is an interactive video game.  Once these characters are released to the public, they are OURS to do with what we will (for our own selfish pleasure).    They cease to belong to the writers.  I am a jewelry designer by trade.  If one of my customers buys one of my pieces and then changes it strictly because they like to wear it that way, I have no problem with that.  My ego is not in charge of my art, unlike some BioWare writers.

 

I gave up on my Dalish Mage playthrough because I, too, am afraid that it will not last throughout the series.  

 

We are not asking that other people's canon be changed.  We are asking that the Keep simply respect the choices we've made for games played on our own machines!

 

No one cares about your straightness, there's no need to announce it, jesus.

 

No, this is like selling a mass-produced bracelet, someone taking the clasp off it or re-stringing it with a different clasp in the style they prefer, and then you release a necklace which is fine on it's own, but you can lengthen it by adding the bracelet you previously sold to it. The person who replaced the clasp is now unhappy because said necklace is only compatible with the original clasp, not theirs.

 

I would have liked everyone in origins to be bi, and once I get a PC copy I am totally gonna romance Morrigan as a woman. But I am not going to ask Bioware to support someone's unofficial mod. That's ridiculous.

[Tielis]

No one cares about your straightness, there's no need to announce it, jesus.

 

No, this is like selling a mass-produced bracelet, someone taking the clasp off it or re-stringing it with a different clasp in the style they prefer, and then you release a necklace which is fine on it's own, but you can lengthen it by adding the bracelet you previously sold to it. The person who replaced the clasp is now unhappy because said necklace is only compatible with the original clasp, not theirs.

 

I would have liked everyone in origins to be bi, and once I get a PC copy I am totally gonna romance Morrigan as a woman. But I am not going to ask Bioware to support someone's unofficial mod. That's ridiculous.

 

Um, no.  It's like if a customer put on a new clasp and found they didn't like it, and they were able to replace the original and be good to go.  You do know that removing a mod doesn't make your entire game unplayable?

 

And nobody is asking anyone to support anything.  If you haven't modded your game, nothing would be different for you.  That seems kind of obvious to me, but I suppose I should never assume.

 

And why the heck do you have a problem with the term "straight ally"?  The OP announced that he was gay, and you don't have a problem with that.

[efd731]

I didn't read through the whole thread because I got annoyed at all the pitchforks, but I am a straight ally and I support everything you've said, OP.

 

I think what a lot of people forget is that this isn't a book or movie where the characters are the characters and they are set in stone.  This is an interactive video game.  Once these characters are released to the public, they are OURS to do with what we will (for our own selfish pleasure).    They cease to belong to the writers.  I am a jewelry designer by trade.  If one of my customers buys one of my pieces and then changes it strictly because they like to wear it that way, I have no problem with that.  My ego is not in charge of my art, unlike some BioWare writers.

 

I gave up on my Dalish Mage playthrough because I, too, am afraid that it will not last throughout the series.  

 

We are not asking that other people's canon be changed.  We are asking that the Keep simply respect the choices we've made for games played on our own machines!

except that the equivalent metaphor is someone replacing the clasp on a golden  necklace, selling the chain, replacing it with string and then getting mad at you for not providing them with a refund. its a completely different thing then what the start product was. why on earth should bioware be responsible for fan mods being incorporated? and if that mod is accomodated, why not the make isabella white mod?, or the weapons addition mods. do you see what im getting at?

[efd731]

Um, no.  It's like if a customer put on a new clasp and found they didn't like it, and they were able to replace the original and be good to go.  You do know that removing a mod doesn't make your entire game unplayable?

 

And nobody is asking anyone to support anything.  If you haven't modded your game, nothing would be different for you.  That seems kind of obvious to me, but I suppose I should never assume.

 

And why the heck do you have a problem with the term "straight ally"?  The OP announced that he was gay, and you don't have a problem with that.

because you have to use the mod in order to get that result? bacause even if people wanted that result they couldnt get it? because it would require the devs altering twp games worth of plot flags. long story short, because despite the OP's sexuality.....its irritating entitled whining. the devs shouldnt have to alter their game based on what we like. sure, if they do then all the power to those who wish to (B)romance Alistair or whatever. But the way its been phrased in this thread makes it seem like bioware is obligated to do so and if they don't its some kind of slight.

[Tielis]

except that the equivalent metaphor is someone replacing the clasp on a golden  necklace, selling the chain, replacing it with string and then getting mad at you for not providing them with a refund. its a completely different thing then what the start product was. why on earth should bioware be responsible for fan mods being incorporated? and if that mod is accomodated, why not the make isabella white mod?, or the weapons addition mods. do you see what im getting at?

 

No, because we are not talking about extra models or voice acting.  We are simply talking about flags being recognized if they are changed.

[efd731]

No, because we are not talking about extra models or voice acting.  We are simply talking about flags being recognized if they are changed.

and if they are flags allready in the game...sure. but the Keep exists to remove all logic errors in the save states. so the male warden alistair romance...is a flag in error.

what we are talking about is a mod.... regardless of anything else, it is unsupported content. so why does this one deserve never before created plot flags in the keep? i dont know how to say it more simply then that. bioware's under no obligation to alter their product to accomodate mods or fanfic. to assume they owe you/us/consumers that is immensely stupid.

[Allan Schumacher]

No, because we are not talking about extra models or voice acting.

 

This would only be true if the prior content was never referenced in future content.

 

It'd be asking for us to account for the fact that Alistair could be married to a guy, so we cannot use female pronouns or other names exclusively.  I'm not sure if it'd be all that meaningful if the game tells you over and over "nope, that wasn't actually a gay relationship."

[Tielis]

This would only be true if the prior content was never referenced in future content.

 

It'd be asking for us to account for the fact that Alistair could be married to a guy, so we cannot use female pronouns or other names exclusively.  I'm not sure if it'd be all that meaningful if the game tells you over and over "nope, that wasn't actually a gay relationship."

 

If I am interpreting the OP's request properly, I'd say that he wasn't really all that concerned with a few improper pronouns.  As for my Dalish Mage thing, I wouldn't be all that bent out of shape if someone reacted to my character as a Mage instead of a Dalish elf or vice versa.

 

Why not let us be able to set our own flags the way we want?

[Allan Schumacher]

The OP also refers to their own character as "King" ("It was nice seeing Alistair come to meet his king in Awakening dawww :3").  Does it still work if Alistair explicitly refers to the Warden as a Queen?

 

It's easy to say "yeah yeah it wouldn't bother me" until you actually experience it.  How about Morrigan referring to the Warden as being the father of her child?  Does that still work?

 

 

 

 

Why not let us be able to set our own flags the way we want?

When deciding any feature, it's always important to look at the potential cost.  What costs do you think get associated with this?  Are there any potential cascade effects?

 

Especially at this stage of the project (or even April 6).

[Tielis]

The OP also refers to their own character as "King" ("It was nice seeing Alistair come to meet his king in Awakening dawww :3").  Does it still work if Alistair explicitly refers to the Warden as a Queen?

 

It's easy to say "yeah yeah it wouldn't bother me" until you actually experience it.  How about Morrigan referring to the Warden as being the father of her child?  Does that still work?

 

 

 

 

When deciding any feature, it's always important to look at the potential cost.  What costs do you think get associated with this?  Are there any potential cascade effects?

 

Especially at this stage of the project (or even April 6).

 

I suppose we'll just have to count on the modders, then.  Yet again.

[AlanC9]

The OP also refers to their own character as "King" ("It was nice seeing Alistair come to meet his king in Awakening dawww :3").  Does it still work if Alistair explicitly refers to the Warden as a Queen?

 

 

Come to think of it, what does Alistair say there?  I haven't played through that scenario in DAA, though I have seen Alistair and Teagan referring to the Warden's gender. Whatever it was, the OP was obviously OK with it or he wouldn't be asking for more.

 

But yeah, requests against the explicit design intent have a low probability of success. The Keep is there to stamp out unintended world-states, not to allow players to put them in.

[Allan Schumacher]

I suppose we'll just have to count on the modders, then.  Yet again.

 

....

 

 

Come to think of it, what does Alistair say there?  I haven't played through that scenario in DAA, though I have seen Alistair and Teagan referring to the Warden's gender.

 

I actually don't know the precise words he uses.

[Tielis]

....

 

If not for modders, I would not be purchasing DA:I, nor would I have purchased DA2.  It is due to the modders that I have played DA:O through about five times.  

 

Good business practices indicate that EA, being very interested in their bottom line, would want to give their games as much replay value as they can.

[Allan Schumacher]

If not for modders, I would not be purchasing DA:I, nor would I have purchased DA2.  It is due to the modders that I have played DA:O through about five times.  

 

Good business practices indicate that EA, being very interested in their bottom line, would want to give their games as much replay value as they can.

 

I apologize, but the bold emphasis I added was because it came across as a snide parting shot.

 

I actually asked you what costs you think there could be, and you responded with that.  So yes, it was a snarky response to what I saw was snark in response to me trying to explain the complications with doing so.

 

 

If you wish to discuss things further with me, feel free to take it to PM.

[Tielis]

I apologize, but the bold emphasis I added was because it came across as a snide parting shot.

 

I actually asked you what costs you think there could be, and you responded with that.  So yes, it was a snarky response to what I saw was a hefty in response to me trying to explain the complications with doing so.

 

 

If you wish to discuss things further with me, feel free to take it to PM.

 

I apologize.  I felt that you were just dismissing my request with the proverbial "sorry, it would cost too much so forget it".  

 

I have loved BioWare games since the original Baldur's Gate, and modded versions of all their games have increased my enjoyment of them 100-fold.  Honestly, I think it's a silly move not to take it into consideration, but I will not ****** and moan here.

[efd731]

^^^you have been, and so what. "Mods make the game more fun" is not exactly groundbreaking news. However, implying that any company should be adapting mods into their main game or sequels to a modded game is madness.

[Captain_Harkness]

What ever your stance on this it really doesn't matter. You are asking Bioware to include or exclude something because you think it needs to be in there. You want them  to change something a a future on current game based on FAN-MADE content on a game they have already released. You had certain options for DA:O and DA2. DA:I will reflect the different possibilities they built for those games. It will not reflect things from modded content. As a fan and customer Bioware owes us nothing. Bioware goes out of their way to pay attention to what many fans want. Sometimes they there is something not included that your particular group wanted. When this happens Bioware gets yelled at and insulted by their fans. This is nothing less then self-entitled whining and quite frankly I am a little disgusted. Bioware could just decide to completely ignore their fan base like some companies do and they have every right to do so. They choose to listen, respond and in some cases take what fans want into consideration for what content does or does not go in their games. They deserve a bit more appreciation for this then they receive.