443 réponses à ce sujet

[ladyoflate]

Um, no.  It's like if a customer put on a new clasp and found they didn't like it, and they were able to replace the original and be good to go.  You do know that removing a mod doesn't make your entire game unplayable?

 

And nobody is asking anyone to support anything.  If you haven't modded your game, nothing would be different for you.  That seems kind of obvious to me, but I suppose I should never assume.

 

And why the heck do you have a problem with the term "straight ally"?  The OP announced that he was gay, and you don't have a problem with that.

 

Assumed heterosexuality is the norm. Why the need to announce your straightness and ally-ness specifically, rather than just saying that 'I co-sign this thing' and thus using your actions (as actiony as you can get in a forum, anyway) speak for themselves? Why the need to make sure some random internet person doesn;t actually mistake you for a non-heterosexual person?

 

And yes, said clasp replacement is fine for that bracelet to be used as a bracelet. That's why I specifically mentioned the second part--aka the important bit--wherein the bracelet is no longer compatible with the new thing. Which is the part we're talking about.

 

The OP is actually asking for support for their mod, in that they are asking Bioware to keep in a specific bug when they're building the game from scratch on a new engine, and said game also has to account for a new method of save import. It's very cool that the DA2 import preserved their mod, but it was a bug that is most likely gone now due the specific attention paid to the save-importing process in this game. It's entirely possible that the bug simply didn't happen in this new game, meaning to oblige this person's request, Bioware would have to go back in and add it. Which is support. For the mod.

[xXxshemlifexXx]

I suppose we'll just have to count on the modders, then.  Yet again.

Modding Frostbite lol

get a load of this guy

[Mockingword]

Assumed heterosexuality is the norm. Why the need to announce your straightness and ally-ness specifically, rather than just saying that 'I co-sign this thing' and thus using your actions (as actiony as you can get in a forum, anyway) speak for themselves? Why the need to make sure some random internet person doesn;t actually mistake you for a non-heterosexual person?

 

And yes, said clasp replacement is fine for that bracelet to be used as a bracelet. That's why I specifically mentioned the second part--aka the important bit--wherein the bracelet is no longer compatible with the new thing. Which is the part we're talking about.

 

The OP is actually asking for support for their mod, in that they are asking Bioware to keep in a specific bug when they're building the game from scratch on a new engine, and said game also has to account for a new method of save import. It's very cool that the DA2 import preserved their mod, but it was a bug that is most likely gone now due the specific attention paid to the save-importing process in this game. It's entirely possible that the bug simply didn't happen in this new game, meaning to oblige this person's request, Bioware would have to go back in and add it. Which is support. For the mod.

Oooooooooor they could change the Dragon Age Keep system to make Alistair and Morrigan retroactively romanceable by members of the same sex, since they are now aware of what a popular option it would have been.

 

That would not be supporting the mod, it would be making a legitimate option available where previously it was not.

[AlanC9]

Oooooooooor they could change the Dragon Age Keep system to make Alistair and Morrigan retroactively romanceable by members of the same sex, since they are now aware of what a popular option it would have been.

That would not be supporting the mod, it would be making a legitimate option available where previously it was not.

Plus change DAI itself to handle the newly possible states properly. Unless, of course, the issue never actually comes up in DAI.

[Mockingword]

Plus change DAI itself to handle the newly possible states properly. Unless, of course, the issue never actually comes up in DAI.

Well, how hard would that be? A few dialogue flags is all you'd need, and unless they're going out of their way to use gendered pronouns instead of just saying "The Hero of Ferelden", there wouldn't be any extensive rewriting either.

[AlanC9]

I didn't say it would be hard. Just pointing out that you're asking for more than you said you were asking for.

[ElitePinecone]

Well, how hard would that be? A few dialogue flags is all you'd need, and unless they're going out of their way to use gendered pronouns instead of just saying "The Hero of Ferelden", there wouldn't be any extensive rewriting either.

 

The team doesn't seem very partial to changing characters' romance arcs based on what fans want, though. The only precedent in Bioware's games is Kaidan as an m/m option in ME3, and in that case it seemed more like an olive branch offered to people who were (justifiably) annoyed at the absence of any gay romances in the previous two games. The situation in DA is significantly different, and the DA writers have made their discomfort with doing things "because fans want it" quite well known.

 

That doesn't even consider the possibility that the "popularity" of making Alistair and Morrigan s/s love interests would be vastly outweighed by the people who don't want that to happen. Whether that view is legitimate or not, a backlash would probably occur. It's easy to remain in a fandom bubble where something like an AlistairMorrigan s/s romance is an enormous concern that everyone supports, but by definition something like this is not a mainstream issue. I think it's quite likely that the general reaction would be negative.

 

And frankly, I feel uncomfortable with demands to change things in general. Bioware's fans have a hard time distinguishing "feedback" from entitlement, and if something like this encouraged more people to complain about [X thing they didn't get], I think it can only have a negative influence going forward. If fans expect to be heard to the point that they can change decisions in previous games, something's gone wrong with the developer-fan dialogue.

 

The writers wrote the game as it is, and IMO that should stand. Fans are free to express their dissatisfaction with what happened, and free to ask that things be different in the future (as they arguably were with DA2, and DAI's supposedly equal numbers of s/s and o/s LIs), but wanting to retroactively adjust content in ways the developer never intended is going down a risky path.

[Mockingword]

The team doesn't seem very partial to changing characters' romance arcs based on what fans want, though. The only precedent in Bioware's games is Kaidan as an m/m option in ME3, and in that case it seemed more like an olive branch offered to people who were (justifiably) annoyed at the absence of any gay romances in the previous two games. The situation in DA is significantly different, and the DA writers have made their discomfort with doing things "because fans want it" quite well known.

Uh, "obviously unbalanced" is not a significantly different situation from "even more obviously unbalanced".

 

And I don't really care what other people are comfortable with.

 

That doesn't even consider the possibility that the "popularity" of making Alistair and Morrigan s/s love interests would be vastly outweighed by the people who don't want that to happen. Whether that view is legitimate or not, a backlash would probably occur. It's easy to remain in a fandom bubble where something like an AlistairMorrigan s/s romance is an enormous concern that everyone supports, but by definition something like this is not a mainstream issue. I think it's quite likely that the general reaction would be negative.

Mainstream opinion supports inequality? Thanks for that newsflash.

 

And frankly, I feel uncomfortable with demands to change things in general. Bioware's fans have a hard time distinguishing "feedback" from entitlement, and if something like this encouraged more people to complain about [X thing they didn't get], I think it can only have a negative influence going forward. If fans expect to be heard to the point that they can change decisions in previous games, something's gone wrong with the developer-fan dialogue.

 

The writers wrote the game as it is, and IMO that should stand. Fans are free to express their dissatisfaction with what happened, and free to ask that things be different in the future (as they arguably were with DA2, and DAI's supposedly equal numbers of s/s and o/s LIs), but wanting to retroactively adjust content in ways the developer never intended is going down a risky path.

Just like ME3, right? Isn't it nice that BioWare fans have the compassion and rationality to support an artist's intended vision?

 

I can see your point, I wouldn't want to shatter such a beautiful, fragile relationship.

[ElitePinecone]

And I don't really care what other people are comfortable with.

 

 

You've made that quite clear.

 

I'm just saying - this is unlikely to happen, no matter how much you write about it here. 

 

Mainstream opinion supports inequality? Thanks for that newsflash.

 

No.

 

I'm saying significant numbers of people will probably be opposed to Bioware altering decisions retroactively in the Keep, in order to make Alistair and Morrigan available for relationships that the developers didn't intend to include them in.

 

This view has nothing to do with inequality, if it's done on the basis that fan feedback should not influence the game to that extent. A significant proportion of people might indeed have other reasons ("eww gays", "Alistair is my bro"), but someone can and should be able to oppose making Alistair and Morrigan s/s options without having that imply that they support unequal treatment of s/s romances.

 

I support having equal numbers of romance options. If I had the chance to re-make Origins, I'd have four bisexual LIs. But I do not support the view that Bioware should go back and change what they intended just because someone wants them to do so. 

 

The game might be the most unequal and horrible thing ever, and we should be able to complain about it - loudly - and agitate for something better in the future. People did that for ME and ME2, I was one of them. But wanting recognition of your personal fan fiction, when the developers don't support it, is a step too far.

[Mockingword]

 

You've made that quite clear.

 

I'm just saying - this is unlikely to happen, no matter how much you write about it here. 

 

 

No.

 

I'm saying significant numbers of people will probably be opposed to Bioware altering decisions retroactively in the Keep, in order to make Alistair and Morrigan available for relationships that the developers didn't intend to include them in.

 

This view has nothing to do with inequality, if it's done on the basis that fan feedback should not influence the game to that extent. A significant proportion of people might indeed have other reasons ("eww gays", "Alistair is my bro"), but someone can and should be able to oppose making Alistair and Morrigan s/s options without having that imply that they support unequal treatment of s/s romances.

 

I support having equal numbers of romance options. If I had the chance to re-make Origins, I'd have four bisexual LIs. But I do not support the view that Bioware should go back and change what they intended just because someone wants them to do so. 

 

The game might be the most unequal and horrible thing ever, and we should be able to complain about it - loudly - and agitate for something better in the future. People did that for ME and ME2, I was one of them. But wanting recognition of your personal fan fiction, when the developers don't support it, is a step too far.

 

"This view has nothing to do with inequality, it just happens to support the preservation of past inequality".

 

Your personal reason for supporting inequality isn't really relevant. The plain and simple fact of the matter is that you are supporting it.

 

The Keep is a chance to re-make Origins. It allows people who played the game to make different choices than they made before, and it allows people who didn't play the game to have some impact on how the plot played out. For all intents and purposes, The Keep essentially is a remake of Origins.

 

I already know exactly how likely BioWare is to make this change (zero likely). I don't need you to tell me that posting about it is futile. I'm not doing it for that reason.

[efd731]

Oh ma gawd, tumblr social justice to the rescue. Seriously, origins let you have a m/m relationship a w/w relationship, and the problem is you couldn't have it with specific characters? What makes that request more deserving of recognition than anyone else's? What about the people who wanted Hawkecest? Or to hatef*ck mother Petrice? Or romance character X a certain way. Why don't they deserve the same legitimacy? There was a mod(very badly done) that made a dark spawn companion, should that be honored? This is the DA fandom, we overwhelmingly support Equality in the game(with some vocal dissenters). But implying the devs are responsible for retroactively changing their games to suit your preferences is entitled whining. Which is why so many peoples knee jerk reaction is to say "no Shut up"

[Nohvarr]

If I don't get the ability to alter my saves so I can romance and win Avelines Heart, then you shouldn't get what you want. It's only fair.

[Mockingword]

Oh ma gawd, tumblr social justice to the rescue. Seriously, origins let you have a m/m relationship a w/w relationship, and the problem is you couldn't have it with specific characters? What makes that request more deserving of recognition than anyone else's? What about the people who wanted Hawkecest? Or to hatef*ck mother Petrice? Or romance character X a certain way. Why don't they deserve the same legitimacy? There was a mod(very badly done) that made a dark spawn companion, should that be honored? This is the DA fandom, we overwhelmingly support Equality in the game(with some vocal dissenters). But implying the devs are responsible for retroactively changing their games to suit your preferences is entitled whining. Which is why so many peoples knee jerk reaction is to say "no Shut up"

"We overwhelmingly support equality in the game".

 

I'm sorry, are you including yourself in this "we"? Because you seem to think the offering in Origins counts as "equality" when it demonstrably does not. And then you equated homosexuality with incest and rape. Finally, instead of being critical of the inequality in Origins, and thinking that it should be corrected, you told me people are justified in telling me to shut up.

 

If this is what ally-ship looks like, I reckon I'll pass.

[Kage]

I just cant imagine the amount of work that this decision of importing decisions is taking Bioware.

It is a very nice approach, and hugely part of their success, but they need to keep it controlled or they would waste too much development time on it.

 

I do not think supporting mods imports would be wise at all, it would be too much effort I am afraid. I would be happy enough if DAI would be "moddable", which will not be at the beggining at least....

 

So it is a hard time for mods :'(

[efd731]

I'm offering origins as "better than most everything else" not as a paragon of equality. And I equated your demand which is silly and unnecessary with other demands of similar quality. (Also, hatef*ck does not = rape) and people are justified. You are not the final arbiter on what is proper and good, the devs have no requirement to run everything by you. Changing the previous games to suit any agenda is silly. No one wants to slight anyone or support inequality. But can you really blame people for seeing your requests as entirely self-serving an entitled? Because you are asking for specific options that suit you. And due to your attitude, I have a hard time picturing you being so supportive of other retroactive changes.

[efd731]

And I don't really care what mod is demanding to be integrated. That's the crux of my disagreement. We're arguing over semantics, and that's not what matters to me. mods shouldn't be expected to be accommodated by anyone.

[Nohvarr]

And I don't really care what mod is demanding to be integrated. That's the crux of my disagreement. We're arguing over semantics, and that's not what matters to me. mods shouldn't be expected to be accommodated by anyone.

Lord knows I'd be annoyed if Certain mods (Changing Isabelle's hair color and skin color for example)  we're accommodated.

 

I can understand the dangers of allowing a user generated MOD to dictate changes to a character's previous defined history in the canon game. At that point the characters actual personality, the essence of who they are no longer matters, only the will of the fans matters and that is a bad idea.

 

An example (to me) would be a MOD changing ME 2 so Samara says 'Yes' to a relationship despite her code and the previous adherence to it making that impossible for her, and then expecting the fact she said 'yes' in your MOD being represented in ME3. The same goes for Aveline and Varric really.

 

Now if you want to argue "equality" in future romances I say have at it, especially when we're discussing new characters, but expecting them to go back and change someone...or really in this case, expecting them to accommodate a user mod just opens up a massive can of worms I feel needs to remain nailed shut.

 

I do wonder, though, do other RPG companies (like say CDProjeck Red) have fans asking for their mods to dictate future storyline? I am honestly curious if Bioware alone in dealing with this or if it's present across the RPG community?

[ladyoflate]

"This view has nothing to do with inequality, it just happens to support the preservation of past inequality".

 

Your personal reason for supporting inequality isn't really relevant. The plain and simple fact of the matter is that you are supporting it.

 

The Keep is a chance to re-make Origins. It allows people who played the game to make different choices than they made before, and it allows people who didn't play the game to have some impact on how the plot played out. For all intents and purposes, The Keep essentially is a remake of Origins.

 

I already know exactly how likely BioWare is to make this change (zero likely). I don't need you to tell me that posting about it is futile. I'm not doing it for that reason.

 

For the record: I would love if they did something like that, but only if (and ONLY if) they released some sort of official 'patch' that made Morrigan and Alistair bi. Otherwise it's just half-assing it to me, and I feel like Origins should remain as it is officially playable in the Keep either way simply for reasons of clarity/lack of user confusion. Also the half-assing thing like 'We can say we romanced them but not actually do so???' is kind of messed up.

 

What I take issue with specifically is the asking of support for an unofficial version of the game, esp when they're in the middle of a cycle of building for the next gen.

 

efd731-- this is why i took umbrage with the 'straight ally' pronouncement. you're telling, not showing.

[efd731]

Ummm, what? I never said I was a straight ally. In fact I really goddamn hate that term. I'm nobody's goddamn "ally" I just happen to think you should have the freedom to do what/who you like.
Edit: the above sounds really rude, and I'm sorry. But I really hate that phrase. It irks me
ReEdit: just realized you were talking about the other guy, my bad.

[ladyoflate]

Ummm, what? I never said I was a straight ally. In fact I really goddamn hate that term. I'm nobody's goddamn "ally" I just happen to think you should have the freedom to do what/who you like.
Edit: the above sounds really rude, and I'm sorry. But I really hate that phrase. It irks me
ReEdit: just realized you were talking about the other guy, my bad.

 

WHOOPS my eyes screwed up, also my apologies.

i keep making a dumb with mixing up people on here, it's embarrassing.

[HK-90210]

Bioware is no more obligated to support fanfictions than they are to support mods. Unless its to fix a bug, if you have to mod something it's no more accurate to the game or the story than fanfiction. And as much as I love the story about my Warden and Leliana going off and having twelve kids, I know game lore doesn't support it. So in my head it stays. It is content that is not created by them, and runs contrary to their intentions with both the story and the characters. I believe that Bioware shouldn't support it.

 

As a person who love kids, I wish Bioware let the PC have kids with more characters than just Morrigan. I think Hawke should have been able to do it too(At least with Merril, anyway). I think that would make things more 'equal'. If you can do it with one LI, why not all? But I also do not want Bioware to compromise work that they did five years ago(holy ****, has it REALLY been that long?!). I want Bioware to stay true to the original story that I played. Not the one I made up to suit my own preferences.

[Mockingword]

I'm offering origins as "better than most everything else" not as a paragon of equality. And I equated your demand which is silly and unnecessary with other demands of similar quality. (Also, hatef*ck does not = rape) and people are justified. You are not the final arbiter on what is proper and good, the devs have no requirement to run everything by you. Changing the previous games to suit any agenda is silly. No one wants to slight anyone or support inequality. But can you really blame people for seeing your requests as entirely self-serving an entitled? Because you are asking for specific options that suit you. And due to your attitude, I have a hard time picturing you being so supportive of other retroactive changes.

Yes, I absolutely can blame people for not understanding that the issue is one of equality, and I do. Claiming to support equality is utterly worthless when, in the very next sentence, you state that existing inequality should be preserved simply because changing it would be a "retcon". Well, guess what, sometimes retcons are good. X Men Origins: Wolverine, for example, should be retconned out of existence, we'd all be better off if we pretended it never happened. Every time same-sex marriage is legalised in a new area, the law is being retconned.

 

But that's all beside the point, because I was never talking about making a retroactive change to Dragon Age: Origins, I am talking about what I think should be included in an upcoming product, which is the Dragon Age Keep.

 

If people don't want to support inequality, maybe they should take that aspect of the situation into account when their opinion favours the continuation of inequality purely for the sake of protecting a fictional story that occurs in a make-believe place. 

 

You can say that it's "not about inequality", but all that means is that you haven't actually thought about the inequality that persists as a result of your opinion.

[karushna5]

Honestly? I feel that may be a whole lot of work that actually might never be seen in game. Very possible that The Wardens Romances (other than the ogb) will not be recognized at all and is disappointing. I don't think any manner of switching it in 3 can make up for the pronouns that are obvious in Origins.

That said. This is not "fanfiction" or Darkspawn mods, it certainly isn't like turning Isabella White Mods, AND it isn't about being able to romance characters who were specifically unromanceable.

It is saying that LGBT options were few and who we romanced was very limited. Some people wish that they could fix that inequality with the keep because it wasn't very fair.

Saying we should be happy with our options is ignoring the fact that Straight people had our options and then had extra. And I am sorry, but having kids/not having kids isnt really a huge issue in society. You can pick up most romance, several action, a few fantasy, some sci fi, drama with a certainty and even cartoons who say people have children after marriage and even show those children.

The amount of content I can find, is rarely going to be on the big screen. Books usually always reserve it for the side character who dies. The fact that being straight is affirmed everywhere is empowering to you and your relationship, while the amount of affirmation I can find to validate me is so small and limited to basically not exist unless I dig very deeply, and even then most lesbian content is made for straight men to ogle rather being anything about women. And gay men in media is used as a joke rather than a person.

Being dismissive of us trying to find balance in games we obviously enjoyed (I mean, we are on these forums years after a game has came out gathering any scraps we can. We are hard core) as you not being able to romance Aveline, or not having children is missing a key and vital point. Out of the last 4 franchises, Straight people have been able to romance 29 of the possible full romances. (Yes lumping together since the same is done fairly often with gay and lesbian people)
And lesbian/gay romances have had 13 full romances. Of those, 29, 18 of those characters are just for straight people more than all our options combined. Of our 13, 2 are exclusively for us.

Those are ridiculous odds, and asking them to even them if just an inch, even though they wont. Is not comparable to incest or not having children in a game.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yes, I absolutely can blame people for not understanding that the issue is one of equality, and I do. Claiming to support equality is utterly worthless when, in the very next sentence, you state that existing inequality should be preserved simply because changing it would be a "retcon". Well, guess what, sometimes retcons are good. X Men Origins: Wolverine, for example, should be retconned out of existence, we'd all be better off if we pretended it never happened. Every time same-sex marriage is legalised in a new area, the law is being retconned.

Not really. The old law still existed in the past, so retcon isn't the right word since the new law doesn't go "The old law never existed". Just saying...

[ElitePinecone]

Edit: forum posting is being weird.

 

The place to argue for fairer representation is in future games, not in past projects. You will never be able to cajole or coerce the studio into absolving for its historical sins by retroactively giving s/s romances equal numerical representation in games that it released five years ago. Tallying up lists of romance options across Bioware's games is always going to favour the straight ones, because until relatively recently Bioware's record on s/s content was fairly dire. It still is pretty dire in something like Mass Effect, despite the well-intentioned content in ME3.

 

Unless there's a proposal to dramatically weigh the LIs in favour of s/s options in the future (which, let's face it, is incredibly unlikely), the best argument from now on is equal representation in future games. It's something that looks to be happening in DA:I, and I hope it's what will happen in Mass Effect: Dentist.

 

It might hurt to "concede" that Origins will be unequal forever, but focusing on the future is a heck of a lot more sympathetic than wanting to retrofit old characters to satisfy either 1) your headcanon or 2) a standard of fairness. It also has a much greater chance of success.