443 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Even better were the chats with Leliana.  "How is it like to be an elf?  Listen, check your privilege, I'm obvs Dwarf - well I was until I was thrown to the darkspawn.  Still. :/"

 

It was certainly interesting; I had thought that a single flag would have determined the conversation (like, a Dwarf Noble flag, Human Noble flag, etc) but it looks like they had a separate one for race, origin and class which had different priorities depending on the area.

 

  I need to do an elf adopted by dwarves for the lulz. I can't play the dwarf past the origin otherwise. All the neck craning D:

 

Aww I just started my CE and was planning on a HN rogue male now I have another playthrough. Curses D:

[CuriousArtemis]

It was certainly interesting; I had thought that a single flag would have determined the conversation (like, a Dwarf Noble flag, Human Noble flag, etc) but it looks like they had a separate one for race, origin and class which had different priorities depending on the area.

 

I think it was per character??? (the dialog flags) Cause I modded a male Surana to be "female" during Cullen's conversation (just to try it out; had no desire to play a female). Switched him back to male. Then when he first spoke to Alistair, changed him to female so it triggered the romance. Immediately switched back to male. Alistair saw me as female for the rest of the game, but no one else did.

[Nefla]

I don't know, they might support it. They did in ME3 with people who modded ME1-2 to have a m/m romance with Kaidan. They just built it into ME3 as if it had been an option all along and had dialogue and everything.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't know, they might support it. They did in ME3 with people who modded ME1-2 to have a m/m romance with Kaidan. They just built it into ME3 as if it had been an option all along and had dialogue and everything.

Well, originally both Kaidan and Ashley were written to be bisexual in Mass Effect 1, but they took it out. So they were finally just going through with it for Kaidan.

[Ryzaki]

I don't know, they might support it. They did in ME3 with people who modded ME1-2 to have a m/m romance with Kaidan. They just built it into ME3 as if it had been an option all along and had dialogue and everything.

 

Sort of there's a few missing lines. (Like one or two unvoiced lines). And the dinner date defaults to the usual romance starter one (which...is a bit odd but it works!) 

[Nefla]

Well, originally both Kaidan and Ashley were written to be bisexual in Mass Effect 1, but they took it out. So they were finally just going through with it for Kaidan.

I know. My point was that they added content based on something only modders had access to so maybe they will again?

[efd731]

I know. My point was that they added content based on something only modders had access to so maybe they will again?

But they didn't add it because of the modders possible access. They added it because of the desire among the fanbase. Not saying that the two don't correlate, but yeah, mods weren't the reason for the change. The writers and those over them thinking It should happen, that's why .

[efd731]

The difference being, of course, that straight people are already over-represented in videogames and the media generally, while the LGBT audience is under-served.

If you have a whole bowl full of M&Ms, and someone else only has three, then taking a handful of your M&Ms and giving them to the other person would only be making the situation more balanced.

Taking those three M&Ms from the other person and giving them to you, however, would make the situation more inequitable, and that person would be right to complain. You already have far more M&Ms than you need.

Except (in accordance to your metaphor) taking anyone's M&M's at any time is a dick move. I'm not arguing that non-hetero people are underrepresented, I don't have a problem with anyone modding to meet whatever pixelated needs that have. I'm just saying that there is no difference between wanting more of "x kind" of character, regardless of what X is. The only thing is, there's a larger amount of straight people, so why wouldn't there be pandering to them? It's not right by any means....but honestly, it's not bad. Lgbt is underrepresented because there are less of them(irl). It's shitty, but takin anyone's M&M's is bad.

[Nefla]

But they didn't add it because of the modders possible access. They added it because of the desire among the fanbase. Not saying that the two don't correlate, but yeah, mods weren't the reason for the change. The writers and those over them thinking It should happen, that's why .

They added it for fans who are modders. Fans who aren't modders can't access that dialogue. They can still start a fresh romance with Kaidan but the "we were together in ME1" dialogue is only there if you modded ME1.

 

I don't know if there was confusion, but I wasn't saying they added the Kaidan m/m romance because of modders, only the previous relationship with Kaidan and manshep dialogue.

[TK514]

My question to the OP is this; what makes your fanfic more worthy of Dev support than anyone else's? Because you used unsupported software hacks to see it on your monitor?

Because that's what this comes down to. Your version of the relationship is fanfic. I could write a fanfic about Fiona being a Grey Warden spy who was totally in love with Anders, and stick the printout into my copy of Asunder and call it a prologue. Should the devs support my fanfic going forward, too?

I don't have any particular beef with people using mods. What other people do to their software means less than nothing to me. But they're fanfic. And if the devs support one fanfic, the slope is steep, slippery and short from there.

[Mockingword]

Except (in accordance to your metaphor) taking anyone's M&M's at any time is a dick move. I'm not arguing that non-hetero people are underrepresented, I don't have a problem with anyone modding to meet whatever pixelated needs that have. I'm just saying that there is no difference between wanting more of "x kind" of character, regardless of what X is. The only thing is, there's a larger amount of straight people, so why wouldn't there be pandering to them? It's not right by any means....but honestly, it's not bad. Lgbt is underrepresented because there are less of them(irl). It's shitty, but takin anyone's M&M's is bad.

The fact that you were given so many M&M's in the first place is an injustice, and it's being corrected. Cry about it if you like, but you've already enjoyed a long and storied history of getting all the M&M's to yourself, and it's about time you learned to share.

 

Every single time a gay or bisexual character is created, they are taking a spot that could have, theoretically speaking, been used by a straight character. Every time a gay or bisexual character is made, an M&M that could have gone to you is being given to someone else instead.

 

But it's okay, because you only have to share occasionally, and your bowl of M&M's keeps getting magically refilled to overflowing, so you aren't really losing anything. You already have more M&M's than you could possibly eat in your entire life.

[AlanC9]

I don't think the slippery slope argument there is real. Let's say Bio lets people set flags so Alistair and Morrigan are bi or something. I doubt they'll want to; part of the point of the Keep is to clean up incoherent variable states, and that's what such a mod will look like internally. But even if they did, it doesn't therefore follow that Bio would have to support, say, that adoption mod. They've never shown any reluctance to just say no to something before.

[efd731]

The fact that you were given so many M&M's in the first place is an injustice, and it's being corrected. Cry about it if you like, but you've already enjoyed a long and storied history of getting all the M&M's to yourself, and it's about time you learned to share.

Every single time a gay or bisexual character is created, they are taking a spot that could have, theoretically speaking, been used by a straight character. Every time a gay or bisexual character is made, an M&M that could have gone to you is being given to someone else instead.

But it's okay, because you only have to share occasionally, and your bowl of M&M's keeps getting magically refilled to overflowing, so you aren't really losing anything. You already have more M&M's than you could possibly eat in your entire life.

You are making this into a personal argument, and I can see that the matter is close to your heart. Before things get heated, let me just say that you don't know anything about me and are Making comments about "my bowl". I never said I had a problem with rebalancing of M&M's so to speak, my only point is that everyone wants their M&M's and no one's motives for M&M redistribution are clean and righteous. It just comes down to "I want this". That is all. When it comes down to it we're all just toddlers who don't want to share their toys.

[Mockingword]

Except actually, a lot of the LGBT crowd on this site have no problem sharing their toys. Very few people ask for love interests that are exclusively gay, and nobody is asking for Alistair to be made exclusively gay.

[efd731]

I'm referring to you and me specifically, and you didn't address anything else I said. But we're derailing OP's thread, so maybe message me if you want to continue?

[TK514]

The difference being, of course, that straight people are already over-represented in videogames and the media generally, while the LGBT audience is under-served.
 
If you have a whole bowl full of M&Ms, and someone else only has three, then taking a handful of your M&Ms and giving them to the other person would only be making the situation more balanced.
 
Taking those three M&Ms from the other person and giving them to you, however, would make the situation more inequitable, and that person would be right to complain. You already have far more M&Ms than you need.

You're actually arguing that it's ok to be upset about an optional, unofficial mod you don't have to download, use, or even look at because it changes the sexual orientation of a character in someone else's game?

Based on an argument that is some odd mix of distorted social justice and false zero sum?

[efd731]

You're actually arguing that it's ok to be upset about an optional, unofficial mod you don't have to download, use, or even look at because it changes the sexual orientation of a character in someone else's game?

Based on an argument that is some odd mix of distorted social justice and false zero sum?

It's changed into the inclusion of non-hetero characters in general now. I'm saying that because straight people are a majority of course they'll be represented more than lgbt people(but I have no problem with more lgbt characters) and Mockingword says(if I understand correctly) that the distribution ratio is complete crap and straight people bitching is ridiculous. So we're sort of in agreement, but it's the details that are a bone of contention.

[Mockingword]

You're actually arguing that it's ok to be upset about an optional, unofficial mod you don't have to download, use, or even look at because it changes the sexual orientation of a character in someone else's game?

Based on an argument that is some odd mix of distorted social justice and false zero sum?

No, I think it's legitimate to be upset that the LI distribution in DA:O was unbalanced, and I think it's fair to ask for retroactive changes in the DA Keep to allow same-sex relationships with Alistair and Morrigan.

 

Why OP wants what he wants doesn't particularly concern me. Honestly, I didn't even read the entire thing.

[efd731]

Being upset about LI's is fair. Being apart about a lack of retroactive changes....is silly. Regardless of the change that you feel should be made(not just our current topic)

[ElitePinecone]

Asking for Alistair and Morrigan to be open to both genders is exactly the sort of thing that every frothing forum member with their pants in a twist conjures up as their feared endpoint of Bioware introducing more LGBT characters - why would you give them that ammunition? What's the point? Is this the figurative battlefield you want to die on?

 

Not only is it making a quixotic stand against something that happened two games ago, now, but by retroactively asking for something that the developers never intended, you're basically wanting official acknowledgement of modded content. Every single terrified "omg what if Alistair hits on me, we were bros" objection suddenly becomes more or less valid - and for what? Does the injustice of not having equal options necessitate demanding that Bioware change their original vision?

 

I think the ME case is not a good comparison at all - before ME3 there were zero male same-sex romance options in that entire series, period. There were zero gay characters, except for one side-character in the book series who was retconned as straight and killed. The Kaidan romance was, if anything, a half-hearted way to give male Shepards a second romance option (over three games, mind) that needed only a few line changes from femShep's. If anything the more appropriate example is DA2, where the team introduced equal numbers of LIs for all genders and orientations.

[efd731]

[quote name="ElitePinecone" post="16368093" timestamp="1396856641"]


Asking for Alistair and Morrigan to be open to both genders is exactly the sort of thing that every frothing forum member with their pants in a twist conjures up as their feared endpoint of Bioware introducing more LGBT characters - why would you give them that ammunition? What's the point? Is this the figurative battlefield you want to die on?
Snip
/quote]
Honestly, my only problem is the retroactive changing of stuff. Alistair/morrigan could be introduced to the DA:I as being bi or player sexual, I wouldn't bat an eye. I suppose my problem with any of these proposed changes is that....fanfic should be allowed nowhere near the game.

[Ryzaki]

Asking for Alistair and Morrigan to be open to both genders is exactly the sort of thing that every frothing forum member with their pants in a twist conjures up as their feared endpoint of Bioware introducing more LGBT characters - why would you give them that ammunition? What's the point? Is this the figurative battlefield you want to die on?

 

Not only is it making a quixotic stand against something that happened two games ago, now, but by retroactively asking for something that the developers never intended, you're basically wanting official acknowledgement of modded content. Every single terrified "omg what if Alistair hits on me, we were bros" objection suddenly becomes more or less valid - and for what? Does the injustice of not having equal options necessitate demanding that Bioware change their original vision?

 

I think the ME case is not a good comparison at all - before ME3 there were zero male same-sex romance options in that entire series, period. There were zero gay characters, except for one side-character in the book series who was retconned as straight and killed. The Kaidan romance was, if anything, a half-hearted way to give male Shepards a second romance option (over three games, mind) that needed only a few line changes from femShep's. If anything the more appropriate example is DA2, where the team introduced equal numbers of LIs for all genders and orientations.

 

I'd like this but I reached my quota.

 

I mean...I love all bi LIs but the chance for Alistair/Morrigan to be bi Lis is over with really. It's been 10 years for them since DAO. They're not even companions in DA:I.  It sucks but that's just how it is. You're better off focusing energy into future LIs being open to all.

 

Asking BW to support your game state bending mod is just unfair really.  They already have to worry about in game content bugging out. It's a mod. If the game does work with it that's great! But by no means is anyone entitled to BW canonizing their modded games. That said I know how you feel and it's a reason I don't want to see my warden in game. (The mods I used to make her are way off from default LOL) but I very well can't get upset if my warden doesn't look like her modded state. (Now getting upset she's in the game period is another matter )

[ElitePinecone]

I should say that I'm sympathetic to people who were frustrated at the lack of choice in DA:O (and that feedback does seem to be a major factor in the team's decision to make the options more equal in DA2), but I don't think that justifies wanting modded content to be recognised. If the developers specifically wrote Morrigan or Alistair as romance options for one gender only, I think that sort of authorial control should be generally upheld. Certainly Bioware don't have an obligation to support non-standard world-states or save-files. I argued the opposite for Mass Effect's Kaidan, but in that case it was because after two games people still had absolutely no way to play a gay Shepard (or a femShep who preferred a female human) - and because that concern had been largely ignored or dismissed, even in official developer statements about the lack of s/s romances.

 

In this case, the request is to change the love interest of a protagonist from two games ago. What are the chances that the Warden being in a relationship with Alistair will get more than a line or two of acknowledgement in DA:I? I understand that it might be important for your internal universe or sense of connection with the Warden, but supporting it might be impossible given the logic systems in the Keep.

[wolfsite]

Except actually, a lot of the LGBT crowd on this site have no problem sharing their toys. Very few people ask for love interests that are exclusively gay, and nobody is asking for Alistair to be made exclusively gay.

I've seen people "demand" that Kaiden was made exclusively gay to fit there personal lifestyle.  I believe that is where things get touchy, yes people demanding things is a very small minority and do not represent the whole but - hey - Internet.

[Andraste_Reborn]

I think it would have been preferable if Alistair and Morrigan had been bisexual romance options in the first place - or if there'd been two more gay options to balance things out. However, I think that retconning this via the Keep would be a bad idea at this stage. (Especially since it raises the question of how the game would have handled a male Cousland romancing Alistair. Would he have become Prince-Consort, or would Alistair have broken up with him or relegated him to 'mistress' status the way he does with any female PC who isn't a human noble?)

 

It's just not practical to expect the Keep to import things you can only achieve via modding, even if they're things I wish were in the original game.