443 réponses à ce sujet

[efd731]

It's all about ratios, my friend.

I get that, but my point was, even If white people have the majority, is the ratio any better for them. Think of all the really shi**y games out there, if the majority have white protagonists, then don't whites have the majority of caricatures? (I have no clue what's what on a per capita basis)

[Hanako Ikezawa]

"Queer" has been removed from our swear list and is now available to be used. I think it was an oversight. Another poster is correct, depending on several factors, it can be seen as offensive but I would rather have it available for use and ban people who are using it to cause harm. 

Did you fix it so the F word and its variants are now censored?

[Mockingword]

Otherwise known as "bending over backwards" in a world where, to some, that isn't enough. Whether one thinks it is right or not is irrelevant for an observer.

It's not "bending over backwards". Writing a minority character is not any extra work compared to writing a majority character.

 

People are people. It's really that simple.

[KaiserShep]

Lol.

 

Simply including minority characters is "bending over backwards"?

 

The real effort comes down to establishing these characters in such a way that their representation of a particular minority group does not define them in the story. Steve Cortez, for example, is not "the gay guy in the cargo bay", but rather he's the fighter jock turned shuttle pilot who happens to be a grieving widower.

[efd731]

It doesn't take any more time or effort to make minorities into "believable people" than it does to make white, straight men "believable people".

Point

Your head

The point isn't that it may take more time(did what I said actually come across like that) it's just that the likelihood of backlash is much greater for those characters. Tbh, write a really shitty generic white dude, no one bats an eye. Change either the white or dude part, all of a sudden any crap writing is directly attributed to the fact that they are not in fact a white dude. (Which may be entirely deserved) if white guys ****** about such a character, it's entitlement. If any other group does it, it's because they're fighting for their rights to be recognized or to be portrayed properly. Which they damn well deserve. Bu it doesn't mean that their lack of well written characters is any greater

Edit: I meant time and effort because they are held to higher standards than other characters. And will withstand more scrutiny.

[ElitePinecone]

Including, and having possible romances. Additionally, the games prevent you from taking a controversial stance on this, in a couple of games that allow you to take a LOT of controversial stances.

Worth mentioning is Serendipity, the transsexual from the blooming rose, who winds up at an orlesian party with arguably one of the top three officials in Kirkwall. Additionally, IRL, Bioware has taken a very pro-progressive/liberal stance.

 

Gee, Bioware are really pandering to the LGBT crowd by not including the option to be a bigoted moron. 

 

So... we should be thankful that they aren't including homophobia? Isn't that just expected from any game developer with a mental age above twelve?

[efd731]

Gee, Bioware are really pandering to the LGBT crowd by not including the option to be a bigoted moron.

So... we should be thankful that they aren't including homophobia? Isn't that just expected from any game developer with a mental age above twelve?

I dunno, in a game series about choice, there's very few choices to role play a complete troglodyte.

[ElitePinecone]

Okay,I thought this thread was derailing.

Another thing is the complexity of supporting nodded content. Future content will have to be built with fan made content in mind which is at times to different to be even in scope. How does one choose over numerous created content? Also is it worth the cost of development?

I could however see it supported if a large or sizable audience percentage uses the mod. The approach of such a decision would be to include it without removing the core content.

 

Given that modding is generally only a PC endeavour anyway (it's too complex and finnicky for consoles), you're only dealing with a minority of a fraction of your audience. 

 

I can't see any mod ever becoming popular enough to be officially supported - we're talking about a pool of users that might be, at most, a single-digit percentage of their total player-base.

[KaiserShep]

I dunno, in a game series about choice, there's very few choices to role play a complete troglodyte.

 

It only really works well when it involves "fantasy" bigotry, like how you can be anti-synthetic or anti-alien throughout the Mass Effect series, or have little regard for the elves or dwarves as a human, or hate humans as an elf (or dwarf?) in Origins. I can only imagine what this forum would turn into if options such as expressing homophobia were to exist in these games. If I had to guess, it would turn this place into a cesspool.

[ElitePinecone]

I dunno, in a game series about choice, there's very few choices to role play a complete troglodyte.

 

Bioware rightly draws that line though - and there's a world of difference between including the option to be racist towards a fictional species, and including the option to discriminate against people who actually exist in the real world. 

 

(Not to mention that - as I quoted above from World of Thedas - there's a gigantic question mark over whether discrimination against LGBT people even exists in this fictional setting. Arguably, it doesn't, or at least not in the way we would understand it.)

[efd731]

I don't see the difference. Truly, dwarves and elves don't exist. So fantasy racism is okay. playing a anti-human racist dwarf/elf is all good? But that relates in no way to real life racism? But saying "those parts don't go there" in thedas is too real an issue? Explain

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I don't see the difference. Truly, dwarves and elves don't exist. So fantasy racism is okay. playing a anti-human racist dwarf/elf is all good? But that relates in no way to real life racism? But saying "those parts don't go there" in thedas is too real an issue? Explain

Not many people face discrimination on a daily basis because they're human, but most homosexuals have experiences discrimination in their every day life due to their sexuality. It's really that simple. 

[ElitePinecone]

I don't see the difference. Truly, dwarves and elves don't exist. So fantasy racism is okay. playing a anti-human racist dwarf/elf is all good? But that relates in no way to real life racism? But saying "those parts don't go there" in thedas is too real an issue? Explain

 

There are no elves who can ever conceivably be affected by Bioware including that option. They can take that metaphor of elf racism and go crazy with it.

 

Including homophobia is a minefield. It's ugly. It affects actual people in the real world, some of whom will play the game. Is there a point to including it, apart from satisfying all the people on their forum who want the game to be all "dark" or "mature" or "edgy"?

 

Again - if homophobia as a concept doesn't exist in Thedas - because Thedas is not the real world - why would people even ask to have that option? Insulting someone on the basis of their choice of sexual partner might be as weird in Thedas as insulting someone because of their eye colour would be on Earth. 

[efd731]

There are no elves who can ever conceivably be affected by Bioware including that option. They can take that metaphor of elf racism and go crazy with it.

Including homophobia is a minefield. It's ugly. It affects actual people in the real world, some of whom will play the game. Is there a point to including it, apart from satisfying all the people on their forum who want the game to be all "dark" or "mature" or "edgy"?

Again - if homophobia as a concept doesn't exist in Thedas - because Thedas is not the real world - why would people even ask to have that option? Insulting someone on the basis of their choice of sexual partner might be as weird in Thedas as insulting someone because of their eye colour would be on Earth.

I equated bein racist against humans in thedas to being racist against groups of humans irl(or tried to)
I just don't see why anything else deserves a pass.

[ElitePinecone]

Because people in Thedas aren't homophobic. The idea is foreign to them.

 

(And frankly, I find your suggestion of a free pass a bit obnoxious. Do you actually want to spend the game throwing around insults at every conceivable group of people?)

[oceanicsurvivor]

I'm of the opinion that even though white people make up the majority of protagonists....it's not like they're any less of a caricature. Minorities get the **** end of the stick for more often it's true, but just because we're the majority doesn't mean we're any better written. Just my 2 cents.

 

I think you might be misunderstanding caricature? I mean, a crappily written character isn't a caricature by default. When games take minorities and write them as harmful stereotypes (largely without substance, motive, or agency) that is when you have caricatured portrayals.

 

Saying that b/c sooo many games feature boring white dudes as their stars and then calling it, what, under representation of not boring white dudes? is really missing the point.

 

Stereotypes aimed at non white/straight/men are largely harmful in real, impactful ways. The only stereotype I can think of for white dudes is that they can't dance. Which really isn't the same.

[efd731]

I think you might be misunderstanding caricature? I mean, a crappily written character isn't a caricature by default. When games take minorities and write them as harmful stereotypes (largely without substance, motive, or agency) that is when you have caricatured portrayals.

Saying that b/c sooo many games feature boring white dudes as their stars and then calling it, what, under representation of not boring white dudes? is really missing the point.

Stereotypes aimed at non white/straight/men are largely harmful in real, impactful ways. The only stereotype I can think of for white dudes is that they can't dance. Which really isn't the same.

I'm not equating them, just saying that if the issue is character quality, everyone suffers from badly written pro tags. Also, not one single stereotype from any other group is as mild as white folk can't dance?
Edit: also, the badly written dude-bro whit guy....isn't a caricature in and of itself? Or at least it's own stereotype?

[oceanicsurvivor]

I'm not equating them, just saying that if the issue is character quality, everyone suffers from badly written pro tags. Also, not one single stereotype from any other group is as mild as white folk can't dance?
Edit: also, the badly written dude-bro whit guy....isn't a caricature in and of itself? Or at least it's own stereotype?

 

Ok, sure, some stereotypes are 'less' harmful stereotypes for minorities then other stereotypes, but my point is that the dancing one is THE WORST white straight dudes collectively have. (It's also pretty much the only one)

 

And again, badly written and harmful caricature are not the same thing. They over lap a lot, but the two are not interchangeable.

 

And so, 'everyone suffers from badly written pro tags", again, sure. Buuuut, the perpetuation of stereotypes has real world negative impact on minorities, b/c they reinforce real world beliefs and can help perpetuate racism and homophobia etc. Badly written white guy pro tags just make people sleepy. Big ol' difference.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Ok, sure, some stereotypes are 'less' harmful stereotypes for minorities then other stereotypes, but my point is that the dancing one is THE WORST white straight dudes collectively have. (It's also pretty much the only one)

I don't know. I tend to notice that the racist and/or sexist characters tend to be white males. Isn't that setting a stereotype? 

[Allan Schumacher]

I get that, but my point was, even If white people have the majority, is the ratio any better for them. Think of all the really shi**y games out there, if the majority have white protagonists, then don't whites have the majority of caricatures? (I have no clue what's what on a per capita basis)

 

Yes caricatures of white people exist.  I'd argue that the variety of white people as protagonists varies a lot more more than various minorities.  I'd also argue that in many cases, the white male protagonist is still often what white males consider ideal.

 

 

I don't see the difference. Truly, dwarves and elves don't exist. So fantasy racism is okay. playing a anti-human racist dwarf/elf is all good? But that relates in no way to real life racism? But saying "those parts don't go there" in thedas is too real an issue? Explain

 

I find it easier to explore those types of themes when the targets of said abuses are targeted for traits that no human being has.  We can look at it and go "whoa that's awful!" and make comparisons to real life, but no one looks at it and identifies that a real world stereotype is being propagated in the game world.  Now you can argue that it's cliche for elves to be oppressed by humans or whatnot, but then it becomes a narrative writing concern without any of the potential social considerations.

[Allan Schumacher]

Ummmm, not sure if you saw one of my
Posts after that one(or if you care) but I said my stance was that the majority could stand to take a few hits and I have no problem with it. But my analogy would be there are 3 children getting 9/10 M&M's and 1 child gettin one.

 

This analogy though, isn't applicable to the concern you expressed here.

 

It always makes me curious that make "character" gay mods are so positively received. Like sure, you wanna romance a character a specific way, go for it. But if there was a make "character" straight mod it'd be incredibly offensive and derogatory.

 

You asked why gay mods are well received, while straight mods are not.  The analogy was to hopefully illustrate why people will behave this way.

 

 

 

 

Apparently, we should be so lucky to be acknowledged at all.

 

I actually have struggled with the "Argh we're trying" perspective too.  And I think it is still possible for someone to come across *too* aggressively.  But I've learned that in general, the reason why people may "call us out" on stuff like this, is because our games provide a platform for minority people to feel as though they have a voice.  There's little point going to a forum of a game that features zero content from a developer that hasn't even bothered to attempt to create said content.

 

So in this sense, it's really just a different make up of "people that like our games that have feedback."  Maria pointed it out that despite how it may look on an online forum, from her perspective BioWare is "adored" (her word, not mine) by these groups for these efforts.

[Darth Krytie]

 

I actually have struggled with the "Argh we're trying" perspective too.  And I think it is still possible for someone to come across *too* aggressively.  But I've learned that in general, the reason why people may "call us out" on stuff like this, is because our games provide a platform for minority people to feel as though they have a voice.  There's little point going to a forum of a game that features zero content from a developer that hasn't even bothered to attempt to create said content.

 

So in this sense, it's really just a different make up of "people that like our games that have feedback."  Maria pointed it out that despite how it may look on an online forum, from her perspective BioWare is "adored" (her word, not mine) by these groups for these efforts.

 

And I would say Maria is right. Despite people saying: fix this, it could be better, we're saying it at all because there is the chance that it could be heard. I don't bother talking on other forums, because other games haven't bothered 'talking' to me, if you get me.

 

And I do adore BW. Raptr can attest to how much I love BW. If Raptr existed back when BG was out and KOTOR was out, I'm sure my 2,000+ BW gaming hours would bloat to over 3k. But, yes, it's not "you guys suck, fix it", it's "omg you guys are so close to being the best you could be. If you could fix this, it'd be just that much better".

[Allan Schumacher]

Giving it some though it's, at least in my perspective, those similar cognitive dissonance defense mechanisms that pop up.

 

I'll make a comment that I didn't even know was racist (in a recap of a WW2 game, I casually used the first three letters of the Japanese people, simply because it was faster to type that out), and get called out for it by someone.  My initial reaction was that I was being accused of being racist as opposed to simply being pointed out that that thing you said is racist.  Since I believe racism is bad, walls go up and rationalizations occur... "I didn't mean to be racists.  I just used the condensed word because it was faster, etc. etc. etc."  When the reality is I simply made a mistake, and just needed to go "Whoops, sorry I didn't realize that that was a racist term."  But the human brain isn't too keen on having its world view challenged.

 

So when people go "C'mon BioWare!!!!" I catch myself having to suppress that initial reaction, and sometimes am not as successful as I may like.  I don't know, seems similar to me and I'm up late

 

Cheers.

[L. Han]

The thing about words being associated with being racist seems to be nothing more but just an overreaction. 

 

Really though, it's the context and the intent that matters. Not the damn word itself. 

[tmp7704]

Gee, Bioware are really pandering to the LGBT crowd by not including the option to be a bigoted moron. 
 
So... we should be thankful that they aren't including homophobia? Isn't that just expected from any game developer with a mental age above twelve?

It wouldn't hurt to be. You know that saying, how you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar? In the ideal world where everyone is highly empathic, considerate and completely free of any biases it wouldn't be necessary because the high standards would be maintained naturally. But as we don't live in the ideal world, I believe acknowledging and rewarding these preferred behaviours is a good way to promote them as something for the population at large to strive towards.

The sad reality at the moment is, for many people --including the developers-- it'll require active effort to look for and avoid subconscious biases and lazy mental shortcuts they'd put in their work. Lot of them are as you put it "of mental age below twelve". When these who do take that active effort receive treatment identical with these who don't, it puts a very convenient "Seeeee, why even bother" in the hands of these who'd rather remain lazy. And may frustrate these who do try.
 

But, yes, it's not "you guys suck, fix it", it's "omg you guys are so close to being the best you could be. If you could fix this, it'd be just that much better".

Unfortunately the quotes like the first one make it look way more like the former, than the latter. That's what I meant by the "it wouldn't hurt" thing -- by making a bit of effort to clarify your stance is that of a latter and not the former, you can avoid such potential misunderstandings.