443 réponses à ce sujet

[efd731]

Not everyone knows that, especially if they're not on the forums. All they know is the game they play and that's how that played out. I never used the brothel, and when I first played (without the benefit of knowing it was a bug) I was put off by it and actually posted a complaint about in the old forum.

So, deliberate or not, what happened in the game is what people experienced. And it was never patched or anything to change it. And knowing later that it was a bug doesn't change my immediate, visceral reaction to the scene, nor anyone else's.

Not saying that your reaction is wrong,just saying that it doesn't mar bioware's perfect(to my knowledge) record. If it weren't for an unfortunate glitch, no one would ever know, and the scene would make complete sense and be inoffensive to everyone who saw it.

[Jorji Costava]

Basically, the bottom line is this: should the player character be able to murder a wounded soldier or a defenseless prisoner, or sell a person into slavery or worse own a slave, and yet not be able to disagree with homosexuality? What moral impetus is there for that?

 

The difference between actions like murdering a wounded soldier or owning a slave and expressing homophobia is that the former are plot and theme relevant, while the latter isn't. The conflict between conscience and expediency and the subjugation of one people by another are core ideas within the DA universe. Homophobia, meanwhile, really isn't an issue.

 

At the end of the day, there just isn't room for the player to express every single attitude he or she might have. One may as well ask, "Why can't my PC express his passionate preference for chocolate over vanilla ice cream? After all, what's liking a certain flavor of ice cream compared to slavery?" Or, "Why can't my PC express his personal distaste for people with curly hair? That's not as big a deal as killing a prisoner." But these preferences aren't relevant to the story at all. So the question becomes, what reason do we have for permitting the PC to express homophobic tendencies that we don't have for allowing the PC to express his or her preference for chocolate ice cream? As far as I can tell, there aren't any.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I stand by the argument that there just isn't enough demand to waste the word count on anti-gay commentary. The issues of slavery and fantasy based racism are rooted in the main plot. Supporting things like the sale of elves in Origins and the long standing slave trade of Tevinter is directly tied into the plot. It's about elves vs humans and mages vs non-mages. There's a plot specific purpose to it and the commentary ties in to your choices about major story events. There's no homosexuality plot in DA. Thedas is generally accepting of homosexuality. It's not a major point of debate. Your character isn't going to be making any decisions on LGBT rights in the game. Putting the lines in there is just wasted text that the budget could have dedicated to plot relevant information.

 

What I don't get is this impression that people are apparently calling Bioware bigots. I don't think a single person in this thread thinks that about Bioware. My impression is that the vast majority of LGBT players are extremely grateful for what Bioware is doing. They're trying, that's very clear, and it's absolutely commendable. Myself and many other people in the LGBT community love them for that. While I do love Bioware for the efforts and am continually amazed to see staff posting here and speaking other places about their dedication to representation, I think sometimes everyone makes a mistake here and there. Pointing out those mistakes isn't the same as a witch hunt to root out and burn those alleged bigots hiding among the Bioware team. It's just a polite commentary on things we liked and things that could be improved, which is the ideal for fan commentary on any feature of the games.

 

Honestly, I don't think the vitriol some posters have is at all targeted at Bioware, anyway. Bioware has never told LGBT members, "you should just be grateful for whatever we give you", or that we should be happy with any level of representation in games. I see the staff as being very mindful of our concerns, which I'm grateful for. It's a handful of posters on the BSN that seem to be holding these attitudes, not Bioware. It's those posters that are winding up others that are more passionate about inclusion and I think that's largely where the ire is aimed. 

[efd731]

^^^ I agree. I hope it wasn't somehow misunderstood that that was what I wanted. My only desire was to show everyone arguing that we're literally on the same level(because people claimed the high ground because of reasons)And that saying bioware treats any of their characters badly(outside of tragic back stories) is downright idiotic.

[daveliam]

Not saying that your reaction is wrong,just saying that it doesn't mar bioware's perfect(to my knowledge) record. If it weren't for an unfortunate glitch, no one would ever know, and the scene would make complete sense and be inoffensive to everyone who saw it.

 

Bioware does an amazing job, but they are far from perfect.  Bioware games up until DA 2 were far from inclusive. 

 

* There were, literally, no m/m romance features in outside of a single character in Jade Empire until DA: O.  And until DA 2, there was no choice in LI for m/m players.  Until there was backlash, the ME team completely ignored m/m players, but created an entire race of "sexy bisexual blue alien ladies".

* Zevran seems to not only fit into the "promiscuous bisexual" trope and it seems as if there are hints that his sexuality was encouraged/caused by his line of work.  Additionally, while he is the only m/m LI in DA: O, he talks numerous times about his interests towards other women and none towards men.

* Isabela also falls close to the "promiscuous bisexual" trope.

* Serendipity, the only trans character is a sex worker.  Although the devs have indicated that she's supposed to be more of a drag queen, it doesn't mean that the "lady boy sex worker" thing isn't a bit questionable. 

* Wade is incredibly stereotypical in his behavior.  That by itself isn't a problem because it represents how many gay men act, but when he is one of only two confirmed gay men in the games, it's, again, a bit questionable.

 

Now, all that being said, I don't have a problem with what Bioware is doing because:  1.)  It's one of the only companies that actually addresses the LGBT community at all; and 2.)  the devs have been awesome about coming onto the forums to ask questions and use those responses to help inform their future decisions.  I'm sure it will only get better from here and it's all been appreciated, but I wouldn't say that it's been a perfect record up to now, either.  And I say that with nothing but respect and love to Bioware.

[Hellion Rex]

Wade is incredibly stereotypical in his behavior.  That by itself isn't a problem because it represents how many gay men act, but when he is one of only two confirmed gay men in the games, it's, again, a bit questionable.

I agree with the rest of your examples, but Wade and Herren is one example that I think is very contestable. I'm a gay guy, and yet I didn't realize that Wade and Herren were gay and a couple until probably...2 years after I had stopped playing DAO. I thought Wade was simply quirky and I thought it was pretty funny, not that he was being stereotypical.

[daveliam]

I agree with the rest of your examples, but Wade and Herren is one example that I think is very contestable. I'm a gay guy, and yet I didn't realize that Wade and Herren were gay and a couple until probably...2 years after I had stopped playing DAO. I thought Wade was simply quirky and I thought it was pretty funny, not that he was being stereotypical.

 

Yeah, I'm only speaking for my own thoughts and opinions.  Other people's mileage may (and almost certainly will) vary. 

[GVulture]

I agree with the rest of your examples, but Wade and Herren is one example that I think is very contestable. I'm a gay guy, and yet I didn't realize that Wade and Herren were gay and a couple until probably...2 years after I had stopped playing DAO. I thought Wade was simply quirky and I thought it was pretty funny, not that he was being stereotypical.

I didn't realize it until yesterday when someone pointed it out that WOG said they were a couple. So, yeah. YMMV big time on that one.

 

That said, bugs and glitches do happen though I think the Citadel DLC that where Chambers would cheat on Shepard she was supposedly exclusive with because they missed writing a plot flag takes the cake for cringe worthy bugs. Or Zevran forgetting his relationship with the Warden (or thinking they are dead, thanks Awakening!) That one pissed me off the most because it kinda throws out an entire game's worth of characterization to have Zev "cheat" on the Warden like that.

[ElitePinecone]

 

However, all of this is a side point to the main one: that Bioware has a hard-line, unambiguously positive view of inclusiveness to the point of preventing dissention in-game, and yet certain folk such as the OP think Bioware is being negative in their portrayal. Which strikes me as absurd.

 

It should be pointed out that there's no relationship between Bioware's view as a company and their actions in developing the games, It's entirely possible for them to be supportive in their statements while messing up the implementation - which is what happens, occasionally, despite that goodwill. Some of the examples were above. It's entirely valid that people can criticise the way LGBT content is handled even while Bioware is, overall, doing a pretty good job.

 

Where I think they would disagree with you is in even having the option to disagree with homosexuality. I think this is exceedingly unlikely to happen. Not just at Bioware, but at pretty much every major game developer, and the situation is getting better, not worse. Say what you like about changing cultural values, but I think it's getting to the point where the industry as a whole feels rather strongly about this sort of stuff.

[Stelae]

I agree with the rest of your examples, but Wade and Herren is one example that I think is very contestable. I'm a gay guy, and yet I didn't realize that Wade and Herren were gay and a couple until probably...2 years after I had stopped playing DAO. I thought Wade was simply quirky and I thought it was pretty funny, not that he was being stereotypical.

Sorry for the derail, but am I the only person who took one look at Wade and Herren and saw an amiably bickering couple?  Herren keeping the business on track so Wade could work his magic?  Wade trying to please Herren while still being free to create his art?  I mean, do they have to be wearing rainbow flag t-shirts while making out before people get that they are a couple?  Or do I ship people too quickly?

[daveliam]

Sorry for the derail, but am I the only person who took one look at Wade and Herren and saw an amiably bickering couple?  Herren keeping the business on track so Wade could work his magic?  Wade trying to please Herren while still being free to create his art?  I mean, do they have to be wearing rainbow flag t-shirts while making out before people get that they are a couple?  Or do I ship people too quickly?

 

I pretty much feel the same way.  I wasn't positive but I definitely got "vibes" right away.

[AlanC9]

Where I think they would disagree with you is in even having the option to disagree with homosexuality. I think this is exceedingly unlikely to happen. Not just at Bioware, but at pretty much every major game developer, and the situation is getting better, not worse. Say what you like about changing cultural values, but I think it's getting to the point where the industry as a whole feels rather strongly about this sort of stuff.

Agreed. About the only way I can see anyone getting into this sort of thing is if someone wants to do a realistic modern or recent-historical game. It's not inconceivable that Bio might suddenly develop a case of GTA envy, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Even then, it's hard to imagine them burning wordcount on the feature unless there was a major plot point involved.

[ElitePinecone]

^ I don't recall the Zevran conversations from Origins very well, so I'm not sure if the dialogue options when declining his advances included any element of disagreement. (I don't think they did?)

But at this point I just don't see how either Dragon Age or Mass Effect could make "rah rah stand up for traditional values" into a plot point. Neither fictional universe seems to support it. Even in Mass Effect's case where there were few female/female relationships and no male/male ones for two games, the developers later went to some lengths to show that nobody minds what your gender identity is or who you sleep with (heck, Steve's best friend on the ship was the jarhead marine).  DA has been probably legitimately criticised for its treatment of trans characters, but the developers' responses to that criticism has been to earnestly listen and try to improve.

 

There's an argument that games shouldn't shy away from controversial themes if they suit the narrative, of course, but Bioware aren't aiming for realism and the settings within which they're working aren't based on real history or societies. Why should they feel obligated to give players the chance to express opinions that don't make sense in the setting?

[Allan Schumacher]

I know quite of few trans folk that really were bothered by Serendipity. Especially in MotA, with that really awkward scene.

 

Serendipity came up at PAX Prime too, both from developers and fans, as a poor representation of trans people.

[Darth Krytie]

Serendipity came up at PAX Prime too, both from developers and fans, as a poor representation of trans people.

 

Main comment I've heard (and thought) was because it was played like a joke...ooh, look at the pretty elf lady, and ohoho the voice is so deep. They and I felt like Serendipity's existence was meant to be a joke, which is hurtful.

[MattH]

Serendipity came up at PAX Prime too, both from developers and fans, as a poor representation of trans people.

Maevaris Tilani was a step in the right direction though. It's good to see it addressed. 

[Artemis Leonhart]

Sorry for the derail, but am I the only person who took one look at Wade and Herren and saw an amiably bickering couple?  Herren keeping the business on track so Wade could work his magic?  Wade trying to please Herren while still being free to create his art?  I mean, do they have to be wearing rainbow flag t-shirts while making out before people get that they are a couple?  Or do I ship people too quickly?

I saw them as a couple too, it's not just you.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Main comment I've heard (and thought) was because it was played like a joke...ooh, look at the pretty elf lady, and ohoho the voice is so deep. They and I felt like Serendipity's existence was meant to be a joke, which is hurtful.

 David Gaider talks about it in here: http://dgaider.tumbl...nder-characters

[Darth Krytie]

 David Gaider talks about it in here: http://dgaider.tumbl...nder-characters

 

I follow his blog and saw it. I think he makes a few good, hard to hear points. It's so frustrating to hear 'wait a bit longer' and 'not yet' when it comes to this stuff, but progress is slow, and then fast in bursts, and then slow again. Takes time. And always feels like forever.

[daveliam]

I agree about Serendipity, but I have to say that Maevaris is doing alot of the heavy lifting to alleviate my concerns about trans representation.  She is exactly the kind of character that the LGBT community has been asking for:  she's a kick ass, well-written, interesting character who happens to be trans.  It's not the major aspect of her character.  It's not played as a joke or gag.  It's revealed in a single panel that was well done (I can only cringe in embarrassment for her at being rescued with her shirt ripped wide open).  I know that Gaider has stated numerous times that she's one of his favorite DA characters, so I'm holding out hope that she'll end up in the next game and, if she does, I'm confident that she'll be implemented with respect.

[karushna5]

I am just glad that they work on it. I mean, I do want a happy story with lesbians, but I think Bioware doesnt realize that nearly every material out there for lesbians is tragedy. The comedies are few and far between often having gut punches where when you think they will settle down, and then one girl decides she is straight when any other movie would hit the happy montage. Life long lesbians break up due to cheating with a guy, and just frustration.

Also, it sure would be nice to have just one actual Butch lesbian/bi woman out there, anywhere in media without being a joke, but sadly just being Butch is considered a bad stereotype by some, and goodness be the LGBT is not some perfect community where we dont have our own squabbles, and Bioware understanding Queer politics seems to be asking a bit much. Too much really.

Although, that might be nice to know going in for developers is that LGBT is a wide group. We have issues with each other and due to low representation for all of us, it can seem a bit like fighting for scraps. What someone considers amazing, another will declare offensive. Is one group included when another group is? Like I know Bi people get it from all sides, so a gay/lesbian might be offended by the lack of representation without realizing the inclusion, and so on and so forth.

I do think Wade turning into a desire demon was horrible though. But that and Serendipity were their only things that made me cringe. Its hard to represent when there are so many groups with varying ideas

[efd731]

^^^always nice to see a fresh opinion. And herren turned into a desire demon in the dark spawn chronicles in an alternate universe probably as a gag(or as an excuse to not murder wade and herren which would've caused a much larger uproar), not an attack on anyone. Same as serenity, who had a dialogue bug, and was never intended to be portrayed that way.

Edit: because honestly, demon teleport cop out or outright slaughtering the games only confirmed gay couple. Which is gonna cause more jimmies to b rustled.

[daveliam]

Yeah, I could see that argument about Wade and Herren.  However, at least from my perspective, it wouldn't have been an issue at all to me because they would just be two more of the, literally, dozens of named NPCs who were getting slaughtered.  If the gay couple were the only ones to get slaughtered, then I'd look side-eyed at the game.  But killing the gay couple along with every single other named NPC in Denerim?  Not an issue in my eyes.  Just my opinion though.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

To me, Wade and Herren had a Burt and Ernie thing going on. I could see why people would think they were a couple, but I can also easily see them as just friends or business partners in context. I don't assume people are a couple unless it's stated, though. 

[Darth Krytie]

To me, Wade and Herren had a Burt and Ernie thing going on. I could see why people would think they were a couple, but I can also easily see them as just friends or business partners in context. I don't assume people are a couple unless it's stated, though. 

 

Same here. I never gave it much thought, to be honest, the first time I played. Later, I wondered...but still thought probably not. I try my best not to assume sexuality on anyone unless I'm told. Even if someone is dating a person of a particular gender, they still could be bi/pan/demi or what have you.