121 réponses à ce sujet

[umadcommander]

letting wreav loose on a bleeding glaxy with an angry bloodthirsty army at his back seems like a truly horrendous idea

[SporkFu]

In the final conversation with Javik on Earth, if you let him use the shard, he tells shep he will go to the Cronian Nebula, lay the spirits of his men to rest, and then join them. When shep questions him on that he says, "It is as it should be, Commander. The last Prothean voice has spoken. There is no more left to say."

 

Even if he is just trolling everybody all the time, I always thought that Javik was never comfortable living among all the people who were primitives when his species ruled the galaxy. Maybe that sort of suicide is acceptable in his culture, like samurai. I like to think so, anyway.

[SwobyJ]

It seemed to me, especially after the echo shard conversation, that Javik was essentially the Shepard of his cycle.  Except that his ship was lost and his crew indoctrinated, and after they betrayed him he had to hunt down his Joker, his Liara, his Garrus, his Tali (etc.), slit their throats and watch them bleed out to make sure they were dead.  After doing that to his closest friends Shep would come away from that severely scarred, I would think, so I get why Javik is so merciless to anyone he sees as a threat.  Not to mention that a fully renegade Shep will already kill pretty much anyone who looks at him the wrong way, potential ally notwithstanding.

 

^

A good take on it.

 

First time, I had Javik see the shard.

Every time after, on my MainShep, I don't.

 

Javik is set as a 'partricular kind' of Shepard. One that Bob probably never played as. Super Renegade. Not as successful. Always enduring against a threat.

 

'Weaken' him by making him viscerally remember a totally failed past, will just remind him of his hopelessness.

Push forward into his newer existence with the Normandy, and he'll either keep his focus on his resolve (if you Renegade him) or find a new hope alongside it  (if you Paragon him).

 

But yes, sometimes jumping the gun on a morality-action isn't ideal. An example for Renegades is that if you Renegade-'Romance' her 'early', you miss out on whatever dramtic depth she could offer.

Javik's case is for Paragons - encouraging him to face his past too early just further reminds him that he's lost everything in his fight for survival. He needs to stick things through til the 'end' first.

[SwobyJ]

In the final conversation with Javik on Earth, if you let him use the shard, he tells shep he will go to the Cronian Nebula, lay the spirits of his men to rest, and then join them. When shep questions him on that he says, "It is as it should be, Commander. The last Prothean voice has spoken. There is no more left to say."

 

Even if he is just trolling everybody all the time, I always thought that Javik was never comfortable living among all the people who were primitives when his species ruled the galaxy. Maybe that sort of suicide is acceptable in his culture, like samurai. I like to think so, anyway.

 

It possibly is. And his armor does look somewhat familiar too, so I wouldn't be surprised.

 

I feel (story wise) he only gets comfortable with everyone really if you:

-Take him around all the time

-Talk to him all the time

-Side with crewmates like EDI in arguments

-Yes, keep him away from the echo shard, but generally go Paragon with him in ways that encourage positive interactions between him and other species

-Resolve the Liara/Javik conflict after Thessia

-Of course on London, do the handshake and be all friendly

 

At that point, I get the impression that he isn't just open to living with the rest of the galaxy, but looking forward to it. His situation is something that seems to require more of a Paragade touch instead of pure Paragon.

 

Because he has so much to say, he tends to leave the Normandy 2nd with my LI (Kaidan), on that planet. Breath Destroy, of course. If I picked Control, it might have been EDI instead. I like em both. Destroy is a hard pick for me because I Tricia Helfer.

[SwobyJ]

And to address the Krogan situation...

 

As it is, only Wrex is a significant Krogan figure that wants peaceful co-existence with the galaxy, and he can be joined by Eve. Eve wasn't important until ME3, though I'm sure she had a prominent role with the other females.

 

Wrex is the Krogans' beacon of hope, but they also *regularly* challenge his leadership on the topic of peace. *Almost all Krogan* want to be at war. They either have a revenge wish, traditional thinking, or just follow their more biological urge to physically compete/dominate.

 

There *are* exceptions. Some Krogan. But the vast majority would pick a Krogan-ruled galaxy (with everyone else dead, defeated, enslaved, etc) in a heartbeat.

 

It's only somewhat recently (since Mordin's genophage modifications) that they've slowed down on this, at all. Enough for Wrex to possibly step in.

 

And it's only with the Reaper War that there is any chance of guiding them into a better future.

 

But even then, ONLY Wrex and Eve are the ones to lead the Krogan into that future. Popularly, the Krogan just want to fight things. They'll need a cultural revolution to change that. Cultural revolutions tend to have specific figures used as icons of change. Wreav is no icon of peace.

 

If there's some kind of sequel import (and disregard the ending for even a moment here), expect the Krogan with a Cure + Wreav + no Eve, to be a path that backfires - even if only in more background news report terms.

[SporkFu]

It possibly is. And his armor does look somewhat familiar too, so I wouldn't be surprised.

 

I feel (story wise) he only gets comfortable with everyone really if you:

-Take him around all the time

-Talk to him all the time

-Side with crewmates like EDI in arguments

-Yes, keep him away from the echo shard, but generally go Paragon with him in ways that encourage positive interactions between him and other species

-Resolve the Liara/Javik conflict after Thessia

-Of course on London, do the handshake and be all friendly

 

At that point, I get the impression that he isn't just open to living with the rest of the galaxy, but looking forward to it. His situation is something that seems to require more of a Paragade touch instead of pure Paragon.

 

Because he has so much to say, he tends to leave the Normandy 2nd with my LI (Kaidan), on that planet. Breath Destroy, of course. If I picked Control, it might have been EDI instead. I like em both. Destroy is a hard pick for me because I Tricia Helfer.

Yeah, I usually do all of that stuff, except I let him use the echo shard. Maybe it's because the trilogy has me trained to paragon pick the upper option in the dialogue wheel all the time, heh. Next time, I'll leave the echo shard where it is and see.

[SwobyJ]

Yeah, I usually do all of that stuff, except I let him use the echo shard. Maybe it's because the trilogy has me trained to paragon pick the upper option in the dialogue wheel all the time, heh. Next time, I'll leave the echo shard where it is and see.

 

Yeah I did that too (the bolded)

 

In replays of the trilogy, I'm being much more picky. My MainShep will still go for the Red/Blue/SortaGreen* for things instead of White, sure... but Auto-Anything isn't gonna happen anymore. I lean towards more strongly Paragon in ME2 though, but even approach Renegon in ME3.

 

 

 

*I regard a few story paths in ME3 to be 'Green', personally:

-Genophage Cure, but particularly the Full Cure with Wrex and Eve

-Rannoch Peace, but only to an extent

-Synthesis

-I find the stories of Thane, possibly EDI, and somewhat the ME3 Krogan also promote it

-Javik actually carries it a bit too, but he acts as a subversion of it instead of an advocate

-It's not an actual 'conversation/action path' in most ways, but I theorize it being of emerging importance not just now, but in the future games to come

-Either everyone alive except VirmireDeath, Morinth, Mordin, Thane, Legion; to promote the idea of leaving the galaxy in a better place then ever

-Or manyyyy dead; to promote the idea of 'actually doing things right' this final time (Synthesis)

[geth47]

I usually don´t let him use it. i would not  want to see all my efforts in trying to make him see that there´s more to life to look forward to than war being wasted,

 

Even if I´m trying to be paragon I will always make exceptions with Javik and Kelly in order to keep them alive.

[metalfenix]

This is why I saved Wrex on every playthrough I did. I can't stand a brickhead like Wreav leading the krogans.

 

And regarding Javik, I made him touch the shard everytime, but with my current femshep, he will not touch it.

[DeinonSlayer]

Transplanted a post of mine from another thread:

I see Javik's attitude towards the crew as being along the lines of how hardened vets in WWII who fought from D-Day all the way to the Battle of the Bulge, having lost friends all along the way, saw the fresh-faced replacements dropped into their units. Lacking experience, these replacements would all-too-frequently die. The vets didn't want to get to know them, only to have to deal with that, so replacements were somewhat ostracized. Those who survived long enough gradually gained more respect, even if they were never viewed in entirely the same way as the men who were together since boot viewed each other.

Same deal here. Javik fought all the way through his Reaper war. Now he's lost everyone, and his "unit" consists of "replacements" he's never met and has little reason to respect. He has every reason to see a Shepard who spouts platitudes about honor and protecting the helpless as naive (his people were far from helpless, but ultimately couldn't even save themselves - listening to Shepard pontificate, to Javik, is right down there with a replacement spouting to a vet about "Where's the enemy? I want to see some action!"). Fighting alongside these "replacements," he gradually grows to respect them, though I have no doubt he'd still view his former comrades in higher regard.

[Bob from Accounting]

The difference here is that the 'recruits' are the ones achieving success. And the veteren is the load that needs bearing.

 

You see how quickly this silly portrait of Javik collapses once we acknowledge how unnecessary he is? How utterly unneeded? It all comes to poor Javik, enduring the wounds and hardships with a single tear because if he doesn't do it...nobody else will. Without him, nobody would be able to burden these decisions. He quietly bears the misery...because someone has to.

 

Ridiculous.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

The difference here is that the 'recruits' are the ones achieving success. And the veteren is the load that needs bearing.

 

You see how quickly this silly portrait of Javik collapses once we acknowledge how unnecessary he is? How utterly unneeded? It all comes to poor Javik, enduring the wounds and hardships with a single tear because if he doesn't do it...nobody else will. Without him, nobody would be able to burden these decisions. He quietly bears the misery...because someone has to.

 

Ridiculous.

 

I don't know where the hell you came up with this. 

 

Javik certainly isn't a load. Neither is Shepard. Or any of the other squadmates who have fought before. Liara on the other certainly is a load. What does she do exactly? Why is she whining about death and destruction on a battlefield? Why is she whining about all the death and destruction she's seen? Or Shepard himself? I take back what I said. Shepard is a load. He's whining about Earth, whining and acting sad, bearing his burden because nobody else will. Taking the misery, because someone has too. 

 

It's not meaningful, powerful, or heroic. 

 

It's silly, childish, and ridiculous. Shepard is a silly, ridiculous, whiny child. 

[Bob from Accounting]

Really? Is that 'your' Shepard?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Really? Is that 'your' Shepard?

 

In ME3, yeah. Same for you. And it's bad. Very bad. 

 

Good thing I made my own Shepard though. Headcanon is lovely.

[Bob from Accounting]

You know why I think Javik and characters like him are very appealing to some people? Why they hate to hear me speak like this?

[wolfhowwl]

Please enlighten us.

[DeinonSlayer]

Please enlighten us.

Insert spiel about how we're all stupid renegades who have strayed from the True Path and only want our choices validated here.

[Bob from Accounting]

Surely you recognize this very obvious occurence, Deinon? That 'Renegade' players here tend to jump on the sympathy train for Javik? I mean, how many of the same people have whined about Liara for being upset at the destruction of her homeworld?

 

Clearly, there's something special about Javik.

[Jorji Costava]

This whole business of trying to psychologically diagnose the 'real' reasons why someone disagrees with you just strikes me as a massive waste of time. I just say what I think and why; you'll either find those reasons persuasive or not, but playing armchair psychologist on the internet adds nothing to that discussion.

 

It's unlikely you know the real reasons why others believe what they believe better than they do, and even if by chance you did, what would it have to do with anything? It wouldn't have anything to do with whether or not Javik is a well-written character; it would simply establish that one person who disagrees with you may not have a completely rational belief forming process. But who cares about that? This is an ME forum, not a "Neuroses of BSN posters" forum.

 

BTW, this is all coming from someone who doesn't even like Javik that much in the first place.

[Bob from Accounting]

It does matter.

 

I come here because I care about stories and Mass Effect a great deal and I like to discuss them. That means considering input and viewpoints beyond my own.

 

But recognizing where that input likely comes from is an important part of that. If I know, for example, that the 'hate' for a certain character or topic is born out of envy or inadequacy or some other fault of the person instead of the topic, I know the complaint can be safely ignored.

 

In any case, it's really not all that difficult. People generally aren't as complicated as they like to think themselves.

 

But perhaps you're right in that I should simply recognize the input as delusionary and keep it to myself.

[Darks1d3]

It does matter.

 

I come here because I care about stories and Mass Effect a great deal and I like to discuss them. That means considering input and viewpoints beyond my own.

 

But recognizing where that input likely comes from is an important part of that. If I know, for example, that the 'hate' for a certain character or topic is born out of envy or inadequacy or some other fault of the person instead of the topic, I know the complaint can be safely ignored.

 

In any case, it's really not all that difficult. People generally aren't as complicated as they like to think themselves.

 

But perhaps you're right in that I should simply recognize the input as delusionary and keep it to myself.

(...trolling senses....tingling....must resist...)

 

Yes, that would be a good idea...Bob. We would greatly appreciate that in fact.

 

On-topic-I have never had Javik touch the Echo shard. It's best to leave the past in the past instead of continually reliving it, at least if that past is full of pain. That's not to say that it can't be beneficial for anyone to learn how to juggle that much pain yet still be able to focusing on the "good" and learn from the "bad"(don't like using moral absolutes as descriptors, but they still get the point across) and still be at peace. But I don't think Javik is in the right state of mind at that time.

[themikefest]

Surely you recognize this very obvious occurence, Deinon? That 'Renegade' players here tend to jump on the sympathy train for Javik? I mean, how many of the same people have whined about Liara for being upset at the destruction of her homeworld?

 

Clearly, there's something special about Javik.

You have a problem with him because he makes Liara look bad. He proves to us that she isn't the Prothean expert we're led to believe, she's shocked that the Protheans aren't what she thought they would be.

 

I'm not whining about her not worried about her homeworld, I'm upset she doesn't acknowledge the fact her government messed up big time by not revealing the artifact earlier. And after the mission she starts yelling at Javik for no reason. But of course its all about how the Asari can't no wrong, isn't it Bob from Accounting.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

It does matter.

 

I come here because I care about stories and Mass Effect a great deal and I like to discuss them. That means considering input and viewpoints beyond my own.

 

But recognizing where that input likely comes from is an important part of that. If I know, for example, that the 'hate' for a certain character or topic is born out of envy or inadequacy or some other fault of the person instead of the topic, I know the complaint can be safely ignored.

 

In any case, it's really not all that difficult. People generally aren't as complicated as they like to think themselves.

 

But perhaps you're right in that I should simply recognize the input as delusionary and keep it to myself.

 

Finally, a breakthrough! He's finally realized all of his input is indeed delusional about other posters! No more wide-eyed faux Fox Mulder analysis'!

[Jorji Costava]

But recognizing where that input likely comes from is an important part of that. If I know, for example, that the 'hate' for a certain character or topic is born out of envy or inadequacy or some other fault of the person instead of the topic, I know the complaint can be safely ignored.

 

The whole point of my previous post is that this is not the case. There's no essential connection between the truth value of a proposition and the mental state of those who might believe it. Suppose Al the atheist is an atheist simply because he wants to represent himself as "tough-minded," Andy the agnostic is just indecisive and afraid of having his views criticized, and Theodore the theist just wants to impose his dogma and believe that he alone possesses the absolute truth. If we're going simply by the source of the beliefs, we'd end up dismissing atheism, agnosticism and theism, but obviously at least one of those views has to be right.

 

There are going to be irrational adherents of any given belief; ultimately you have to assess whether the balance of evidence supports believing, disbelieving or suspending judgment, and judging the source of the belief isn't enough to go on to do that. Otherwise we could have no beliefs at all.

 

Returning to the topic, I had Javik read the memory shard (although it's been a while since I played ME3 single player, so I could be remembering wrong). Admittedly, this was mostly for metagame reasons. Generally, if you have a choice between an option that's likely to give you more story content versus an option that's likely to give you less, then the "more" option tends to work out in ME.

[KaiserShep]

You have a problem with him because he makes Liara look bad. He proves to us that she isn't the Prothean expert we're led to believe, she's shocked that the Protheans aren't what she thought they would be.

 

Even as one who really likes Liara's character, I love the effect he has in the story in that he meets none of anyone's expectations about the protheans, and leaves her disenchanted with them.