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Innovation and the dragon age series.


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#1
Mirrman70

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So I rarely if ever post topics. but this is a fun one.

 

I see constant arguments for changing the game to either be more like classical RPGs or for them to break away and start their own trend. Well today I saw a video about a very curious topic. Gamers are the ones killing innovation in game development.

 

here is the video 

 

It brings to light that most high selling games are from franchises that have barely evolved outside of graphics in their history. The biggest one brought up is COD, but before we get into the whole "COD is for softcore-wannabe-gamers" tangent they also bring up things like Mario and stuff. the best selling Mario games have tended to be the ones that have remained 2D.  I would love to bring up the fact that DA2 is bemoaned as so much worse than DAO because they are fairly different from each other. At this point I bet many of are thinking "he wants things to go back to the way DAO was". WRONG!

 

I believe that rather than giving into the hype, Bioware should continue to evolve the way the make their games. Why should they be clones of each other with better graphics? Explore the boundaries, take what was good and bad with DAO and DA2 to make DAI even better, but also throw in even more new mechanics keep experimenting. don't let the series stagnate. don't stop being innovative. Gamers may be conservative about want they want in games but that doesn't mean that is what is best. evolution means jumping out of that nest and learning how to fly without practice.


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#2
Stelae

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So I rarely if ever post topics. but this is a fun one.

 

I see constant arguments for changing the game to either be more like classical RPGs or for them to break away and start their own trend. Well today I saw a video about a very curious topic. Gamers are the ones killing innovation in game development.

 

. evolution means jumping out of that nest and learning how to fly without practice.

There's a quote attributed to Henry Ford:  “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”

 

In other words, we mostly ask for a better version of what's currently there, rather than asking for what's possible (or impossible). That's why this forum asks for suggestions and feedback,  which can be taken or ignored, or adapted, or can serve as new ways of looking at a problem. 

 

What we say here doesn't dictate what will happen in the new games; sometimes, people asking for a thing tells the devs that they were right to include it way back in the scoping docs.  Sometimes people asking for a thing makes the devs go "you know, that's not an awful idea ... " and sometimes it makes them go "Holy hells!  What are those forumites smoking??"  I'm sure Bioware is going to continue to try new things, and see which ones work, and which ones are well-received, and which ones are met with fear and scorn. 

 

Actually, evolution means gradually taking bigger and more riskier jumps that get you to better places, so you can have more offspring.  Simply jumping off a cliff doesn't teach you to fly; it teaches you to go splat (and severely limits your scope for self-improvement).  Unless you're going to Flemeth for advice, which is fraught with danger, you can take useful risks without doing things that are so radical they might torpedo you..  Bioware tries things like stealth and multiplayer and all sorts of new mechanics in all of their games; there's no reason to think DAI will be any different. 



#3
slimgrin

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Devs are the ones making the games, they are responsible for innovation. Gamers are just making do with what's on the market. They keep buying COD because the market, by and large, is offering little else.



#4
lane

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agree developers and story makers should take risks and try some new things that none have tried for fear of bad selling ! we're in a age of creativities and loose bondaries , and for that, i think its up to the gamers to voice out loud what kind of new innovations they wish to see ...they might not be able to respond to all expectations but at least they should go ouside their offices or dig into the net and see the reply the videos the feedbacks fans are posting !



#5
Mockingword

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Uh huh.

 

And how are gamers supposed to know ahead of time that they like something which doesn't exist yet?



#6
Bob from Accounting

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Most video game players have little to no technical understanding of what makes a good game or a good story.

 

So...yeah. I don't doubt it at all.



#7
slimgrin

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Most video game players have little to no technical understanding of what makes a good game or a good story.

 

So...yeah. I don't doubt it at all.

 

Really? Prove it. Or are you just jumping on the band wagon here? Because we all know it's popular to bash gamers, especially among the media.


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#8
Guest_JujuSamedi_*

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Narrative is not essential for a game.

 

In terms of the project, I think they gauge themselves on what they can do. Before any project is done, a cost benefit analysis would probably be accompanied by resource allocation. If that studio can handle more visual representation to the game then so be it. You cannot expect a 10 studio company to build a 40 hour game with top notch graphics while all working on a 9-5 schedule.



#9
Nightdragon8

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you know... the problem is we can complain all we want, however its the market that decides how things are run. Because to the stock holder, "taking risks" is a bad thing. "taking risks" can cause shares to drop. And that is whats most important in a company to make sure your profits are good so the stock prices are good, so the stockholders are happy.

 

and what is selling easily? CoD.. as soon as it releases a new title with the Call of Duty title on it, it gets sold out, becomes one of the "top sellers" after release. Which means alot of money is being made. So masive changes are not in store for CoD.

 

As for "Innovation" when it comes to games is honestly overrated. Its the same with music artists I know of a few music artists who got blasted for "Not doing something thats different" But the music was fine. It just didn't "Innovate" enough.

 

If you wanna see Innovation in games, you need to go look at the Indie gameing scene. Because there are alot of great games out there that are fantastic. However there is also really really crap ones as well.

 

Large companies really aren't going to risk a franchise for something like "Innovation" And really gamers in francises don't want the companies to innovate at all. I mean look at the Dragon age series, one of the things was "It needs to be more like Origins" Thats a straight up demand of wanting to go backwards. So what is a company sposed to do, ignore them? and risk loosing your core gamers, listen to them? and lose new gamers you can get to buy your game. Or try to find a middle ground.

 

From what it looks like DA:I may be a good middle ground. So far from what i have seen looks like the combat is a good combination of action and strategy.

 

Also blindly asking a company to "Innovate" something is honestly just being a critic and not a very good one at that. Companies like CONSTRICTIVE criticize. Basicly telling them how they did it wrong and then trowing in some suggestions in how to improve it.



#10
Bob from Accounting

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Really? Prove it. Or are you just jumping on the band wagon here? Because we all know it's popular to bash gamers, especially among the media.

 

Seeing as I'm posting on a video game forum of which every member is a video game player, it seems to me that 'jumping on the bandwagon' would be defending gamers in this instance.

 

If it makes you feel better, I doubt it's because gamers are stupider than people who tend to stick to other mediums. More likely it's simply because we tend to have a much stronger impact on the product than most mediums and industries. And that most people don't have a technical understanding of much of anything in general. So our horrible ideas are much louder.



#11
Just My Moniker

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Not disregarding the different direction Bioware took with DA2,  but it was being unfinished and unpolished that brought about the DA2 hate-train.



#12
KaiserShep

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Not disregarding the different direction Bioware took with DA2,  but it was being unfinished and unpolished that brought about the DA2 hate-train.

 

This is partly true. As much as people complained about the reused environments, from what I've read on here and elsewhere, other major issues people had with the game largely involved the plot, the PC's impact on the story, etc.. BioWare took a chance on moving away from the Sacred Order of Ultimate Badasses that it did for Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect, and instead went with a refugee-turned-noble that had to deal with a crisis-ridden city with nothing more than a band of misfits that had their own lives to deal with, and put the personal story first for much of the game. I've seen lots of complaints about how Hawke was stupid or a failure or a patsy, and some have even said that it has the worst writing they've heard in a video game (which strikes me as hyperbolic nonsense, but whatevs).



#13
Knight of Dane

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My problem was that Dragon Age 2 was trying to tell a personal story that never impacted the main character. Hawke never truly had any character development as a result of any of the forced events (Sibling dying, mother dying, etc)

 

I didn't find the idea absurd, but the execution was terrible. Hawke just keeps on being goody/jolly/angry whatever happens.



#14
Just My Moniker

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This is partly true. As much as people complained about the reused environments, from what I've read on here and elsewhere, other major issues people had with the game largely involved the plot, the PC's impact on the story, etc.. BioWare took a chance on moving away from the Sacred Order of Ultimate Badasses that it did for Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect, and instead went with a refugee-turned-noble that had to deal with a crisis-ridden city with nothing more than a band of misfits that had their own lives to deal with, and put the personal story first for much of the game. I've seen lots of complaints about how Hawke was stupid or a failure or a patsy, and some have even said that it has the worst writing they've heard in a video game (which strikes me as hyperbolic nonsense, but whatevs).

But if Bioware had 3(plus) years to work on DA2 like they did with DAI, then they would have been able to deliver a better game. Agreed, people would have still found stuff to grumble about, but who knows, if Bioware had the 3 years maybe they would have been able to include stuff like multiple races, more environments, better writing, an ending that actually recognized your choices, etc....



#15
AlanC9

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I'm actually coming around to the idea that the short DA2 dev cycle was a good thing. Turns out that I like DA2 just fine, and I think I'd be better off with three DA2s than with two DA:Os.

#16
Sylvius the Mad

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I'm actually coming around to the idea that the short DA2 dev cycle was a good thing. Turns out that I like DA2 just fine, and I think I'd be better off with three DA2s than with two DA:Os.

I don't know.  The polish issues that people complain about didn't really bother me, but many of the design choices did.  And those design choices were likely driven by the short timeframe.

 

As it happens, however, you could build DA2 5 times in the time it took to develop and release DAO.



#17
L. Han

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Pinning to a specific cause (like GameTheory, all respects to Mat) isn't really going get you anywhere. There are so many freaking reasons to why something happens. This includes, but not limited to; technology, narrative, skill and much much more.

 

Could you imagine shifting a game's style and incorporating tons of radical (or what risk-free people would call) ideas into a project a year through development? It would be bloody murder for the techs and programmers to make it even remotely work. Not to mention the time constraints which exists not just because investors want to see money funnel in, but it is there also to make sure the game in development stays relevant and doesn't age before it gets released.



#18
AlanC9

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I don't know.  The polish issues that people complain about didn't really bother me, but many of the design choices did.  And those design choices were likely driven by the short timeframe.

 

As it happens, however, you could build DA2 5 times in the time it took to develop and release DAO.

 

Meaning the relative lack of alternative paths, for instance? Yeah. Just played through Best Served Cold, and it occurred to me that a pro-mage Hawke really shouldn't be trying to finish this quest at all. But if you don't the quest just hangs there. Same thing for Merril's storyline. You can stop it in its tracks, but that's it.



#19
Eralrik

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I had some gripes with DA2 mostly with the environment, endless mobs jumping down from the rooftops <I mean really these guys are wearing armor and from that height they would have broken their ankles> to the weird bars above mobs heads some super small and others super big, player characters Rogue melee combat looks like Jackie Chan on Speed with how fast those daggers moved and the lets stand up straight and disable those traps or unlock those chests <This annoyed me the most>.

 

But aside from all that I still enjoyed Hawkes story and playing the game an as I speak I'm currently on a new play through after having just finished my DA:O play through as a female dwarf castles.

 

Between Bioware's Dragon Age series and Mass Effect I've replayed these numerous times and still get much satisfaction out of them even if DA:I releases and we have the keep to build our story's from and DL to DA:I I will probably still replay DA:O and DA2, I have 28 DA:O saves of different Wardens.

 

I usually Romance Merrill as I find her so freaking cute with her crazy naïve attitude nice seeing she has some life as she was a Vulcan in DA:O dalish starting story with no emotion and felt bland.



#20
bEVEsthda

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There are so many things I think are wrong, both in the OP post itself, and in the included video, that I don't know where to start. I should make an effort and try to get this organized, but my brain is just an avalanche of protest, and I also don't really have the time or motivation to spend on this.

 

But let's start with the thing that is right: Gamers don't know what they want. Check!

 

...But, they do know what they don't want! And one of those things is getting something different than they thought they bought!

 

Game franchises that sell well, don't sell well because they don't “innovate”. They sell well because their mindshare on the market increases, and because they deliver the game that the customers had in mind to get when they bought it.
This is the secret behind CoD and TES sales.

 

It even works if you dumb down the game, in a way that really isn't much appreciated by the gamers. They will complain slightly about it, but in general they will keep buying the game as long as it's essentially the same game.

Now, changing the game, is a whole other business. What do we mean by changing the game. Well, changing the details in the game that the gamer builds his experience of the game from. The craft and mentality of the game. The art and atmosphere. The reward and satisfaction.

When you do that and release the new game under a well known label, things get rather difficult to judge accurately. It's going to be some kind of disaster, because buyers are not getting what they set out to get. But it's also going to sell reasonably well, by the power of the label. It seems a powerful label, like Dragon Age or Sim City, can collect up to 2 mil sales on the shear momentum of the anticipation.

 

You don't really see the full damage to the franchise until you try to release a further sequel of the changed game.

Likewise, you don't really see how the game could have been received, on its own merits.

This also applies to moderately changed sequels. That the sequel sells better than the previous, is no confirmation that the changes were well received or resulted in better sales. Rather, if the sales increase is only moderate, I'd say it's a warning signal.

So this is one of the pitfalls when trying to use sales statistics to try to prove anything.

A game mainly sells through mindshare on the market, whether it's good or bad.

Being recognized as a great game, of course increases the mindshare. But being great is no guarantee for good sales. It can just slip in and out, mainly unnoticed. Like actually a few, of the greatest games ever, have done (looking at Vampires: The Masquerade – Bloodlines).

 

So the lesson is that “Innovation”, in the meaning of completely changing the gameplay to something else, completely changing the art work and atmosphere, completely changing the nature of how rewards and satisfaction is derived from the game, for an existing franchise-label, is never going to work.

 

That doesn't mean that innovation doesn't work. But if you want to do a new, different game, you should not try to market it with a well known label, no matter how tempting that may be for greedy advertisers.

 

And since games are business, another lesson is that when you do have something good, that also does well on the market, you should patiently just milk it with uprated, progressively evolved and polished sequels. And just watch their sales grow.

Then you'll have money for “innovative” experiments. Which may result in another successful franchise. Provided the shareholders will let you, of course.

 

Finally, I'll return to something I've said many times before. The Video Game industry's main problem is that their market is small and isolated. Entertainment software has a huge potential. This potential is not realized because games tend to be aiming for what is perceived as the center of the video game market. There is limited growth potential here. Those huge markets which just sneer at the mere though of wasting time at something like a video game, will never pay it any interest.

 

To expand out of this little, inbred pool of a market, distilled by the kind of games that are released for it, the industry needs games that sits along the border. Trancending into the realm beyond levels of fast-paced action, endless killing and huge end-bosses. Something different than the old Space Invaders -paradigm. The Sim games and the old cRPG were good examples of this. They brought new people to computer gaming. Not much maybe, but they had the potential. Unfortunately the industry has mainly moved in the opposite direction. Towards the center of "fun", "reactive" etc, with the same old, tired gameplay paradigm. Dragon Age is a typical example. I think DA:Origins sat pretty on the fringe. It was a game you could present to some acquaintances, without shame, and they would get why it might be interesting. No such thing with DA2. I think the problem also stems from the very intentional, and industry driven move towards consoles.

The new generation consoles offer hope there, because they have the memory and CPU-capacity to do games that have something interesting going on. Not just killing.


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#21
CybAnt1

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To expand out of this little, inbred pool of a market, distilled by the kind of games that are released for it, the industry needs games that sits along the border. Transcending into the realm beyond levels of fast-paced action, endless killing and huge end-bosses. Something different than the old Space Invaders -paradigm. The Sim games and the old cRPG were good examples of this. They brought new people to computer gaming. (*) Not much maybe, but they had the potential. Unfortunately the industry has mainly moved in the opposite direction. Towards the center of "fun", "reactive" etc, with the same old, tired gameplay paradigm. Dragon Age is a typical example. I think DA:Origins sat pretty on the fringe. It was a game you could present to some acquaintances, without shame, and they would get why it might be interesting. No such thing with DA2. I think the problem also stems from the very intentional, and industry driven move towards consoles.

The new generation consoles offer hope there, because they have the memory and CPU-capacity to do games that have something interesting going on. Not just killing.

 

Once again, a mere like button is not enough.

 

34894d1336616428-new-postman-video-super

 

You know, and BTW I can't condemn a company for going after where they think the growing market share is, that's capitalism, although perhaps we could argue whether they're really right (and whether sometimes going after one share leads to loss in existing customer base, and does the tradeoff really add up) ...

 

The one thing I cannot fathom is when people say that doing what everybody else is doing is innovation. No, it's the exact ****** opposite, and yes I know the word that just went into asterisks there. 

 

"The best-selling games are action-oriented" ... "the best-selling crpg's are action-rpg's" .... "so ... we'll make our games that way!" THAT ISN'T INNOVATION. I'm not going to say the decision makes no sense for a profit-based corporation, but the one thing I will not say is that that represents any kind of creativity. It's just being a follower, not a leader. 

 

There could have been all kinds of innovation in DA2. They could have had more non-combat options and encounters, like you say; more Orlesian balls and Landsmeets, fewer sky-dropping-banzai-bandit-killfests. But that kind of innovating they didn't want to do. 

 

Yes, there's no intrinsic link between quality and sales. Planescape: Torment won an insane number of awards, but it was essentially a commercial failure. Same thing with Vampire: Bloodlines. At the end of the day, Cheez Whiz outsells fine roquefort cheese at any supermarket, but does that really make it a better quality product? 

 

(*) I wasn't brought to computer gaming by quality CRPG's (in truth, that would probably be playing Pong, the first home computer game)... but I was kept playing good computer games longer than you are "supposed" to (i.e. after your 20s) by them. 



#22
AlanC9

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Dragon Age is a typical example. I think DA:Origins sat pretty on the fringe. It was a game you could present to some acquaintances, without shame, and they would get why it might be interesting. No such thing with DA2.


Really? I wouldn't be ashamed by either.

If I was showing a Bio game to a non-gamer I wouldn't start with the combat anyway, and in my experience the DA2/ME dialogue style goes over better.

#23
Abelas Forever!

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I think that Bioware has experimented with different things. The Darkspawn chronicles was different. There were some sneaking in the mark of the assassin. I guess you just can't change things too much because then the game wouldn't be Dragon Age game. I'm quite sure that they are trying to invent something new for the series. But I guess that is not an easy task.

 

When I started to think what kind of innovations there could be in Dragon age series. What things could have considered to be an innovation. Maybe you could be some kind of insect and you could explore the world of Dragon Age by gathering different insect together. Well... I'm not sure how many people would like to play that kind of game.. Then I thought that maybe there could be some stories about some creatures who live in underground. But then I realized that there are those creatures. They are called dwarfs. So that is already done. I guess it could be interesting to hear stories from underwater world of Dragon Age but I'm not sure is it too different. I guess it is.



#24
JCFR

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So I rarely if ever post topics. but this is a fun one.

 

I see constant arguments for changing the game to either be more like classical RPGs or for them to break away and start their own trend. Well today I saw a video about a very curious topic. Gamers are the ones killing innovation in game development.

 

here is the video 

 

It brings to light that most high selling games are from franchises that have barely evolved outside of graphics in their history. The biggest one brought up is COD, but before we get into the whole "COD is for softcore-wannabe-gamers" tangent they also bring up things like Mario and stuff. the best selling Mario games have tended to be the ones that have remained 2D.  I would love to bring up the fact that DA2 is bemoaned as so much worse than DAO because they are fairly different from each other. At this point I bet many of are thinking "he wants things to go back to the way DAO was". WRONG!

 

I believe that rather than giving into the hype, Bioware should continue to evolve the way the make their games. Why should they be clones of each other with better graphics? Explore the boundaries, take what was good and bad with DAO and DA2 to make DAI even better, but also throw in even more new mechanics keep experimenting. don't let the series stagnate. don't stop being innovative. Gamers may be conservative about want they want in games but that doesn't mean that is what is best. evolution means jumping out of that nest and learning how to fly without practice.

Oh geez... you can prove anything if you take some numbers and statistics and juggle them around enough. 

 

For example: Since years any publisher said, there is no demand for Elite or Freelancer-like space games. But crowdfunding showed there actual IS one: Star citizen (can't wait to cruise with my ship).

Hell, there are so many type of games i miss nowadays. A forgotten-realms D&D-Party-RPG. A new Mechwarrior (not this online Counterstrike with mechs). 

Some story-driven sci-fi ego-shooter with crazy weapons (like giunman chronicles or unreal). A new half life.  A  Dawn of war, Dune or C&C-like  RTS-Game.

 

Hell, i wished ME4 would add a combination of 3rd-Person-RPG and Freespace-combat. Like flying though space, batteling alien-ships with your fighter and then capturing a big dreadnought or breaking through a planetary blocade to land on the ground and start questing.

That would be soo awesome... but most likely spaceships will once again just be one big loading zone between missions.

 

The lack of innovation is not because of the gamers, but because of the publishers and developers which don't like to take financial risks. Why taking the risk to create a game which flops, if we can as well produce the 9000. Madden...

sorry, but pushing the blame to us gamers just won't do any good. Yes, i know, it's demand and offer... but tell me, how should i buy what i demand, if it's not offered?