43 réponses à ce sujet

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

It wasn't really a matter of it making more or less sense, but it beats affiliating with what ended up being space Nazis.

Ended up being space Nazis? They always were space Nazis. 

[KaiserShep]

Well, even bigger space Nazis.

[von uber]

Shh don't tell massively that!

[DeinonSlayer]

Shh don't tell massively that!

Would he disapprove, though? Sometimes I'm not sure.

To clarify, I'm not insinuating in any way that he supports them. I, however, am of the view that we've done a disservice to history by caricaturizing them to the degree that we have. I believe their philosophy, their motives, the conditions in which they came to power should be studied like anything else, if for no other reason than to make people wary of what to look out for the next time someone tries something like that again.

[CronoDragoon]

And that'd be character growth, if he ever acknowledged his older view and his newer view

 

True, they could have done a better job addressing the elephant in the room. I suppose that since the development matched my own philosophical thoughts after experiencing the geth heretic mission and Legion's N7 armor scrap (yes I know this wasn't CL's decision. doesn't matter it's still part of the game) I was fine with it.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Would he disapprove, though? Sometimes I'm not sure.

"Well, all the vivisection and science experiments they preformed on living people had a goal from the people in power, so it was all right."

[ImaginaryMatter]

Would he disapprove, though? Sometimes I'm not sure.

To clarify, I'm not insinuating in any way that he supports them. I, however, am of the view that we've done a disservice to history by caricaturizing them to the degree that we have. I believe their philosophy, their motives, the conditions in which they came to power should be studied like anything else, if for no other reason than to make people wary of what to look out for the next time someone tries something like that again.

 

My dislike for the group stems more from their plot hole inducing powers and their ability to make the game not make sense. While their stated methods are more akin to ruthless pragmatism, they just come off as reckless, egotistic idiots with an unlimited stream of cash. It is afterall the pro-human group that up until ME3, where they started killing everyone, managed to have overwhelmingly human only targets with most of their operations and experiments resulting in the death and destruction of Cerberus personnel and property; and a number of cells that just happen to 'go rogue'.

 

Again I'm not stating that TIM or their members are necessarily bad or evil -- for lack of a better word, I really like the Cerberus characters and I was sad to see TIM succumb to lol-Indoctrination. However, I feel ME2 and ME3 both would have been much better stories if Cerberus never grew past their ME1 state.

[CronoDragoon]

Again I'm not stating that TIM or their members are necessarily bad or evil -- for lack of a better word, I really like the Cerberus characters and I was sad to see TIM succumb to lol-Indoctrination. However, I feel ME2 and ME3 both would have been much better stories if Cerberus never grew past their ME1 state.

 

I disagree. I'm glad that Cerberus became as important as it did, if only because I never considered the Reapers a worthy antagonist to give tons of screen time. Rather, I think they best serve as a backdrop, merely a reason to add tension to the world. I think without TIM the series would have lacked an interesting antagonist, although I'm still not sure indoctrination was the best route to take with him. However, as Han Shot First points out, indoctrination is so often referred to and stamped into the series as a major weapon the Reapers wield, it needed to be majorly represented in ME3.

[DeinonSlayer]

My dislike for the group stems more from their plot hole inducing powers and their ability to make the game not make sense. While their stated methods are more akin to ruthless pragmatism, they just come off as reckless, egotistic idiots with an unlimited stream of cash. It is afterall the pro-human group that up until ME3, where they started killing everyone, managed to have overwhelmingly human only targets with most of their operations and experiments resulting in the death and destruction of Cerberus personnel and property; and a number of cells that just happen to 'go rogue'.

Again I'm not stating that TIM or their members are necessarily bad or evil -- for lack of a better word, I really like the Cerberus characters and I was sad to see TIM succumb to lol-Indoctrination. However, I feel ME2 and ME3 both would have been much better stories if Cerberus never grew past their ME1 state.

I wasn't talking about Cerberus...

[KaiserShep]

I wasn't talking about Cerberus...

Oh my various gods, there are real space Nazis?

[ImaginaryMatter]

I wasn't talking about Cerberus...

 

Oh, were you talking about the actual Nazis.

 

...backs away awkwardly.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Oh my various gods, there are real space Nazis?

 

Actually...

 

[DeathScepter]

*slowly backs out of this thread due to he is wearing a Cerberus Shade Armor*

[DeinonSlayer]

Oh, were you talking about the actual Nazis.

...backs away awkwardly.

Yes. Instead of dismissing history, dismissing them as the bumbling cartoon thugs they were depicted as even in 1940's cartoons (whereas the Japanese were actually viewed as dangerous), we should inspect what they did closely, understand where they came from, and in so doing learn to recognize the danger signs the next time someone tries to emulate them before they gain too much strength.

Just thought I'd clarify. Now to try to wedge this thread back on the rails... who has a prybar I can borrow?

[ImaginaryMatter]

I disagree. I'm glad that Cerberus became as important as it did, if only because I never considered the Reapers a worthy antagonist to give tons of screen time. Rather, I think they best serve as a backdrop, merely a reason to add tension to the world. I think without TIM the series would have lacked an interesting antagonist, although I'm still not sure indoctrination was the best route to take with him. However, as Han Shot First points out, indoctrination is so often referred to and stamped into the series as a major weapon the Reapers wield, it needed to be majorly represented in ME3.

 

I agree, the Reapers need to utilize Indoctrinated puppets to execute their plans, as much for practical shoot-'em-up reasons as story based reasons, their ME1 description of them after all is as master manipulators capable of bending both other AI and strong minded Organics to their will. But, ultimately, Indoctrinated thralls are just that, tools to execute the Reapers will. Indoctrination isn't a complex motivation, it's a mix of psychological and physical manipulation. We don't need an in-depth examination of why Indoctrinated people do what they do, we already have a Codex entry for that and we've seen enough of characters undergoing to process in the first two games to know that their will and decision making capabilities has been subverted.

 

In ME3 TIM is superficially similar to Saren. They are both resourceful and strong willed individuals who's subversion creates a formidable antagonist for Shepard to oppose (even down to the ability of Shepard to talk them into shooting themselves after they got incorporated with Reaper tech); something which I suspect was done, in part, on purpose given Saren's popularity. The major difference between them though is that this kind of antagonist works in the first game but not in ME3. For one, we now know about the Reapers now as opposed to ME1 where Sovereign's existence as an eons old sentient machine is only discovered after playing over half the game. Until then we're learning about Saren's fall and what his (and Sovereign's) goals are. Additionally, preventing Saren from using the Conduit means Shepard and friends win, so it doesn't ultimately feel like the whole thing is a big waste of time, distracting us from more important parts of the story.

 

Now TIM. In ME3 the Reapers have arrived, they're here; the game doesn't need another big threat, especially one who was our former boss who's now off the reservation and deep into Indoctrination land (and even though so much time is given to TIM we never actually find out how he got Indoctrinated, we have to read the comics). Half the game is spent fighting Cerberus and their goals. And ultimately it doesn't go anywhere. The arch ends with finding out that TIM is Indoctrinated and crazy, which is why his actions are insane; got it. The game didn't need to spend this much time, climatic moments, and stretched resources for something that was obvious after encountering him on Mars for the first time. I guess it might have been worthwhile if his plans actually went somewhere and they weren't just delusions from the Reapers, but it doesn't; the Crucible's ability to Control is a big coincidence, independent of anything TIM actually did (I guess in low EMS playthroughs it could be argued that TIM keeping the human Reaper brain in his office counts for something).

 

If Cerberus was a smaller part of the story or TIM's actions went somewhere it wouldn't be so bad. But they don't. They are a huge time waster and what makes it worse is that we know Cerberus is a secondary antagonist, yet they completely outshine the Reapers. What the game needed was more time spent towards what the Reaper's exact goals were and establishing them as something more than giant robots brimmed with lasers, instead of them just shooting things and leaving it up to some new character in the last 15 minutes to explain everything. All of this really contributes towards making the game unfocused. There's just too many new and big things going on that we don't need half of the story to tell us that TIM is in loony land.

[CronoDragoon]

There's just too many new and big things going on that we don't need half of the story to tell us that TIM is in loony land.

 

But the game doesn't spend half the story telling us that. The game actually spends very little time examining TIM. You have the 3-4 conversations with him, the datalogs in his HQ, and the final confrontation. Most of the missions Cerberus is involved in they serve the same role as the Reapers: opposition to give urgency to the situation. They are barely involved in what you could consider the two major arcs of the game: Tuchanka and Rannoch (possibly not at all, I don't remember very well).

 

In actuality, I think one tweak is all that would be needed to balance things out. You remove the coup (which not many people here seem to like anyway) and you add a mission that further foreshadows the Catalyst and/or the Reapers motivation; for me this would ideally take the form of learning the story behind the race that constructed the Crucible. This would allow you to foreshadow the Catalyst somehow while also furthering the organic/synthetic angle. The latter would I think be useful in foreshadowing the plot twist of Destroy wiping out all synthetics as well: if the story of the Crucible creators was essentially one of the Reapers using synthetic races against the organic races, and the organic races constructing the Crucible in such a way that it would target both the Reapers and their thralls (naturally this wouldn't be revealed until the end, but at least you'd have a solid story and reasoning behind why Destroy works as it does).

 

There. With Leviathan, this Crucible mission, and Thessia, I think you have enough foreshadowing for the Catalyst and the organic/synthetic revelation. Meanwhile Cerberus functions as an entity just below the surface for practically the entire game until Thessia, when they steal Vendetta's info and force you to reckon with them. This bleeds naturally into Priority Earth as it does currently, with you facing TIM before you eventually face the Catalyst.

[KaiserShep]

I'm pretty sure Cerberus played no role in anything on Rannoch, which is surprising. You'd think there would've been an "Investigate Cerberus geth factory on Mount Bosh'tet" mission.

[Jukaga]

I'm pretty sure Cerberus played no role in anything on Rannoch, which is surprising. You'd think there would've been an "Investigate Cerberus geth factory on Mount Bosh'tet" mission.

I giggled, and now I'm still laughing. Even a tear down my cheek, Mt Bosh'tet... damn that's really funny for some reason.

[ImaginaryMatter]

But the game doesn't spend half the story telling us that. The game actually spends very little time examining TIM. You have the 3-4 conversations with him, the datalogs in his HQ, and the final confrontation. Most of the missions Cerberus is involved in they serve the same role as the Reapers: opposition to give urgency to the situation. They are barely involved in what you could consider the two major arcs of the game: Tuchanka and Rannoch (possibly not at all, I don't remember very well).

 

In actuality, I think one tweak is all that would be needed to balance things out. You remove the coup (which not many people here seem to like anyway) and you add a mission that further foreshadows the Catalyst and/or the Reapers motivation; for me this would ideally take the form of learning the story behind the race that constructed the Crucible. This would allow you to foreshadow the Catalyst somehow while also furthering the organic/synthetic angle. The latter would I think be useful in foreshadowing the plot twist of Destroy wiping out all synthetics as well: if the story of the Crucible creators was essentially one of the Reapers using synthetic races against the organic races, and the organic races constructing the Crucible in such a way that it would target both the Reapers and their thralls (naturally this wouldn't be revealed until the end, but at least you'd have a solid story and reasoning behind why Destroy works as it does).

 

There. With Leviathan, this Crucible mission, and Thessia, I think you have enough foreshadowing for the Catalyst and the organic/synthetic revelation. Meanwhile Cerberus functions as an entity just below the surface for practically the entire game until Thessia, when they steal Vendetta's info and force you to reckon with them. This bleeds naturally into Priority Earth as it does currently, with you facing TIM before you eventually face the Catalyst.

 

I would say it had more than that. All the post-Cerberus mission debriefs have characters speculating about TIM's actions, what his goals are, what Cerberus hopes to gain from any of their chaotic actions. It does hint a lot about what they could be up to. To have it ultimately end up with TIM simply being Indoctrinated and delusional is anti-climatic. I get that there needs to be another faction (I guess) but I think this could have been served from multiple Indoctrinated factions. For one it could have added a more personal element to the story rather than the Ivory mook brigade and provide a more direct link to how awful the Reapers are (vs. how awful Cerberus is), while still maintaining a humanoid faction to serve as target practice. That way the Indoctrinate factions build up the ultimate antagonists, rather than distracting from them.