2014 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

They would definitely need at least an oligarchy to govern. Or a council of some sort. One that represents both viewpoints. And yes, I meant the City Elves handle the diplomatic parts of the government. 

 

The original kingdom of the Dales was, in fact, an oligarchy. According to Gaider:

 

I think it would be appropriate to say that the Dales had an aristocracy or oligarchy, as opposed to a monarchy. Whether that resembled what the Elvhen had long before is really in question.

 

As for the hypothetical of a new elven homeland, how the Dalish have always envisioned it is all the elves coming together and the Dalish teaching the city elves what it means to be elven again. To restore their lost culture and lore. Certainly they see themselves as the rulers in such a situation, though no doubt from a paternalistic sense. Whether the city elves would be okay with that and eager to learn, or whether they would chafe at such an imbalance or find the Dalish attitudes patronizing, is a matter for speculation.

[Xilizhra]

Hmm, an Andrastian-Dalish fused culture is an interesting prospect to think about. 

If we can avoid accusations of heathenry and attempts to unduly imprison mages, everything should go fine.

[umadcommander]

Shotgun diplomacy counts, dammit. 

im all for aggressive negotiations against powerful people, i'll employ it a lot as inquisitor if it lets me, not big on threatening villagers though ^^

[EmissaryofLies]

im all for aggressive negotiations against powerful people, i'll employ it a lot as inquisitor if it lets me, not big on threatening villagers though ^^

 

That was made in jest btw. 

 

But yeah, the Dalish do need to take a backseat when it comes to diplomacy. 

 

 

 

Walker Thedas Ranger coming to a tavern near you.....

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The original kingdom of the Dales was, in fact, an oligarchy. According to Gaider:

 

 

 

I think it would be appropriate to say that the Dales had an aristocracy or oligarchy, as opposed to a monarchy. Whether that resembled what the Elvhen had long before is really in question.

 

As for the hypothetical of a new elven homeland, how the Dalish have always envisioned it is all the elves coming together and the Dalish teaching the city elves what it means to be elven again. To restore their lost culture and lore. Certainly they see themselves as the rulers in such a situation, though no doubt from a paternalistic sense. Whether the city elves would be okay with that and eager to learn, or whether they would chafe at such an imbalance or find the Dalish attitudes patronizing, is a matter for speculation.

 

True. So at least the Dalish should be accepting of the City Elves suggesting it. I'm just hoping that the Dalish don't 'coerce' the City Elves to abandon their previous beliefs.

 

If we can avoid accusations of heathenry and attempts to unduly imprison mages, everything should go fine.

Yes, because the Dalish are completely free of prejudices. 

[dragondreamer]

This was from some pages back, but...

 

It's implied that the elves of Arlathan lost the war against Tevinter because most of them chose to flee rather than fight, due to their fear of quickening.  So that may be why the eluvians didn't help them as much as they could have in that situation.

[AresKeith]

 

Yes, because the Dalish are completely free of prejudices. 

 

Rubbish, they are innocent creatures

[EmissaryofLies]

 

 

Yes, because the Dalish are completely free of prejudices. 

 

But they are. I know when I think of the Dalish from DA II, I think of a loving, benevolent and kind people who simply cannot get enough of the shem Humans. 

[EmissaryofLies]

To be fair. I doubt that ALL the Dalish are as we've seen. 

[LobselVith8]

And what makes you think Subjugation under Dalish rule would appeal to City Elves?

 

Like Hinata said it's simply trading one potentially oppressive master for another.

 

Why might the city elves head to an independent kingdom where the Dalish are among the leaders? Perhaps the lack of egregious injustices due to the elves not being human (as with the murder of elven children by Kelder or the rape of an elven woman being a few examples) or the absence of purges against elven populations (as we saw with the massacre at the orphanage).

[Shadow Fox]

I'm sure elves following a religion that demonizes the followers of other faiths as 'heathens' and vilifies magic may have trouble accepting the Dalish elves and their mages.

And the Dalish one villifies humanity as a plague that robbed the Elves of immortality.

 

 

Or are you saying it's okay for one religion to force itself on others if you agree with it?

[littlebrightpanda]

We probably get more information about the whole Eluvian business in Inquisition, as in the Masked Empire, they only scrap the surface. Morrigan probably has the most knowledge about them, and she will appear. 

 

I doubt that the Dalish in their current form would benefit from using the network, they do not even agree among themselves on how to do things and believe in various forms of communicating with the "outside", ranging from fairly nice to very aggressive. But if some of the more open clans could get in touch with some of the Elves in Alienages to grow their numbers and then try to communicate with other, more secluded clans, their sheer number might inspire collaboration. 

E

[Shadow Fox]

Why might the city elves head to an independent kingdom where the Dalish are among the leaders? Perhaps the lack of egregious injustices due to the elves not being human (as with the murder of elven children by Kelder or the rape of an elven woman being a few examples) or the absence of purges against elven populations (as we saw with the massacre at the orphanage).

And what's to stop the Dalish from committing injustices against Andrastian Elves because they aren't Dalish thus seen as non-elves by the ruling class?

[LobselVith8]

To be fair. I doubt that ALL the Dalish are as we've seen. 

 

The variants among the clans was actually mentioned by Gaider at the old Dragon Central board:

 

The Dalish have the Gathering every 10 years, where all the clans are supposed to gather and the Keepers of each clan share their knowledge with each other. This is also where Dalish-wide issues are dealt with, and ideally the Gathering is supposed to keep the Dalish roughly in step with each other. In practice, though, you are correct. Each clan tends to go the way that its Keeper dictates. Some clans are very militant, almost xenophobic. Some are little more than bandits in whatever wilderness they've staked out (this is often the case in Tevinter, for instance). A few are quite benevolent and live in peace with nearby humans -- the Rivaini city of Llomerryn is known to have a semi-permanent Dalish encampment on its outskirts, and trade with the elves for their crafts is encouraged.

 

 

The Dalish clans can be quite different from one another. When a comparison to the Sephardic Jews was made (by PsychoBlonde), Gaider added:

 

They were still living as part of the societies they migrated to, however. The Dalish do not. At best they'll camp too near some human settlement and eventually the local ruler will drive them out, or they will leave voluntarily before things get too tense, but for the most part the Dalish live entirely seperated from human society.

 

[EmissaryofLies]

Very nice. Thanks for the info. 

[MisterJB]

And yet this immensely skews it in the elves' favor.

Bah. As much as I hate the Eluvians as a plot device, we are forced to accept the fact that, in Thedas, the elves used to have acess to multiple of these things while they were already an extablished empire and they still lost to Tevinter.

Therefore, a bunch of untrained, disogarnized, malcontent primitive hoafs who think wood is armor with acess to one Eluvian is nothing to worry about. They'll screw up and we'll just have to put another clan down, problem solved and we will all have a laugh.

[EmissaryofLies]

And what's to stop the Dalish from committing injustices against Andrastian Elves because they aren't Dalish thus seen as non-elves by the ruling class?

 

Not sure that they outright hate city elves, given that they are willing to except strange ones into their clans. 

 

They may talk badly about them from afar, but I doubt that the hate goes that far. 

 

And if it does, it won't be nearly to the extent that the humans have exposed them too. 

[LobselVith8]

And the Dalish one villifies humanity as a plague that robbed the Elves of immortality

 

The belief in the quickening didn't cause a number of Dalish to vilify humanity or humans, from Lanaya to Merrill. The same way that Anders' belief in the fable of the Golden City (in Awakening and vanilla Dragon Age II) didn't cause him to demonize all mages.

 

Or are you saying it's okay for one religion to force itself on others if you agree with it?

 

Being Dalish is entirely voluntary, to the point where we know a number of elves who have voluntarily left one of the clans to pursue their own goals and pursuits. The clans don't force elves to convert.

 

And what's to stop the Dalish from committing injustices against Andrastian Elves because they aren't Dalish thus seen as non-elves by the ruling class?

 

You seem to be conflating the view of some Dalish with the viewpoints held by all of them. The Dalish can be quite different and varied from each other, but it's a mistake to think they all hold the same views. Lanaya, as Keeper, is a prime example of a Dalish who doesn't view non-Dalish as non-elves. We also see Merrill care about the elves who aren't part of her clan, given her concern over Kelder's killings of children from the Alienage, and that empathy even extends to humans, given her concern for the Starkhaven mages and the Circle of Kirkwall when Meredith orders the annulment.

[Xilizhra]

Bah. As much as I hate the Eluvians as a plot device, we are forced to accept the fact that, in Thedas, the elves used to have acess to multiple of these things while they were already an extablished empire and they still lost to Tevinter.

Therefore, a bunch of untrained, disogarnized, malcontent primitive hoafs who think wood is armor with acess to one Eluvian is nothing to worry about. They'll screw up and we'll just have to put another clan down, problem solved and we will all have a laugh.

Tevinter had the most powerful mages the world has ever seen, in addition to seven dragon gods who, judging by Legacy, may very well intervene sometimes to boost the magisters even further. In addition to the whole thing being so far in the past that we don't know the exact circumstances of anything. I wouldn't underestimate the Dalish.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Not sure that they outright hate city elves, given that they are willing to except strange ones into their clans. 

 

They may talk badly about them from afar, but I doubt that the hate goes that far. 

 

And if it does, it won't be nearly to the extent that the humans have exposed them too. 

Of course they're willing to accept elves that think the Dalish are right. 

[Xilizhra]

Of course they're willing to accept elves that think the Dalish are right. 

Why would they join a Dalish nation if they didn't? If the city elves would rather make their own wholly independent nation somewhere else, they're free to do so.

[LobselVith8]

This was from some pages back, but...

 

It's implied that the elves of Arlathan lost the war against Tevinter because most of them chose to flee rather than fight, due to their fear of quickening.  So that may be why the eluvians didn't help them as much as they could have in that situation.

 

That may have been the primary issue for the fall of Arlathan. Grappling with disease and mortality would have certainly changed the scales.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Why would they join a Dalish nation if they didn't? If the city elves would rather make their own wholly independent nation somewhere else, they're free to do so.

My point was that we can't judge the Dalish opinions on City Elves by how they treat City Elves who want to become Dalish Elves. 

[EmissaryofLies]

Of course they're willing to accept elves that think the Dalish are right. 

 

Their alternatives are better than the shems, that's for sure. 

[LobselVith8]

Of course they're willing to accept elves that think the Dalish are right. 

 

As opposed to Andrastians who view them as heathens, threaten them to convert (as the Sabrae Clan experienced), or have templars pursue them over their mages (as Ariane's clan experienced, since she protected hers from a templar), I'm not seeing why you're surprised that the Dalish tend to accept people who don't oppose their heritage, culture, and religion.