2014 réponses à ce sujet

[sandalisthemaker]

The only good Eluvian is a broken Eluvian.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

As opposed to Andrastians who view them as heathens, threaten them to convert (as the Sabrae Clan experienced), or have templars pursue them over their mages (as Ariane's clan experienced, since she protected hers from a templar), I'm not seeing why you're surprised that the Dalish tend to accept people who don't oppose their heritage, culture, and religion.

I have yet to see the Dalish accept an Andrastian Elf to live with them without adopting the Dalish belief system either, so your point is moot. 

[LobselVith8]

I have yet to see the Dalish accept an Andrastian Elf to live with them without adopting the Dalish belief system either, so your point is moot. 

 

That's akin to Sten joining the Andrastian Chantry while wanting to remain true to his Qunari views; the Dalish are about remaining true to their heritage and religion. And I don't see what's moot about pointing out the simple fact that there are Andrastians who have negative views about the Dalish, to the point of either threatening them in an attempt to force them to convert, or wanting to imprison or kill their mages because they aren't controlled by templars.

[EmissaryofLies]

I have yet to see the Dalish accept an Andrastian Elf to live with them without adopting the Dalish belief system either. 

 

You also do not see them committing hate crimes against them either. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That's akin to Sten joining the Andrastian Chantry while wanting to remain true to his Qunari views; the Dalish are about remaining true to their heritage and religion. And I don't see what's moot about pointing out the simple fact that there are Andrastians who have negative views about the Dalish, to the point of either threatening them in an attempt to force them to convert, or wanting to imprison or kill their mages.

The moot part is because so far I've seen nothing to suggest that if the roles were reversed, the Dalish wouldn't do the exact same thing. 

[Shadow Fox]

The belief in the quickening didn't cause a number of Dalish to vilify humanity or humans, from Lanaya to Merrill. The same way that Anders' belief in the fable of the Golden City (in Awakening and vanilla Dragon Age II) didn't cause him to demonize all mages.

 

 

Being Dalish is entirely voluntary, to the point where we know a number of elves who have voluntarily left one of the clans to pursue their own goals and pursuits. The clans don't force elves to convert.

 

 

You seem to be conflating the view of some Dalish with the viewpoints held by all of them. The Dalish can be quite different and varied from each other, but it's a mistake to think they all hold the same views. Lanaya, as Keeper, is a prime example of a Dalish who doesn't view non-Dalish as non-elves. We also see Merrill care about the elves who aren't part of her clan, given her concern over Kelder's killings of children from the Alienage, and that empathy even extends to humans, given her concern for the Starkhaven mages and the Circle of Kirkwall when Meredith orders the annulment.

Their religion villifies humanity the same way Andratian villifies mages also most people fear mages because of their powers not because of the Golden City.

 

It's "voluntary" because only the elves who want to be Dalish join them that's hardly the utopia for all elves you claim it is and I'll remind you that elves who go against the grain like Merrill are shunned by their peers.

 

No I'm just not basing my stance sorely on the ludicrous idea that a faction I like can build a utopia without prejudices or inequality for very different ideological groups or that said group is free of it's own prejudices that won't be enforced in their society.

 

So your evidence for tolerant Dalish is a former City Elf and a Pariah shunned by her clan for being dissident in her views very convincing.

[LobselVith8]

Their religion villifies humanity the same way Andratian villifies mages also most people fear mages because of their powers not because of the Golden City.

 

Their lore reads that humans from the Imperium caused the quickening when interacting with the immortal Arlathan elves. That's not the same as taking the example of the Magisters entering the Golden City and condemning mages as a whole for the actions of a handful of Magisters. Despite elven lore, there are a plethora of Dalish who don't view humans, or humanity, with disdain.

 

It's "voluntary" because only the Elves who want to be Dalish join them that's hardly the utopia for all elves you claim it is and I'll remind you that Elves who go against the grain like Merrill are shunned by their peers.

 

I never claimed it was utopia; you don't seem to have read what I wrote, given the inaccuracies in your post about what I've said. Also, the Dalish aren't perfect; I don't think anyone contests this.

 

No I'm just not basing my stance sorely on the ludicrous idea that a faction I like can build a utopia without prejudices or inequality for very different ideological groups or that said group is free of it's own prejudices that won't be enforced in their society.

 

Being optimistic about the future of an independent Dales, and addressing that freeing the elves wouldn't necessarily result in the apocalypse or an oppressive regime were my points.

 

So your evidence for tolerant Dalish is a former City Elf and a Pariah shunned by her clan for being dissident in her views very convincing.

 

You really didn't bother to read anything I wrote, did you? Considering you also ignored my post citing Gaider's quote, I'm not seeing much point to responding to you any further. Maybe you should save the snide remarks and retorts for an occasion when you've actually bothered to read the other person's posts. Just a thought.

[Senya]

Hmm.... Let a group of people with a grudge against humanity do whatever they want with questionable magical artifacts.

 

[LobselVith8]

Hmm.... Let a group of people with a grudge against humanity do whatever they want with questionable magical artifacts.
 

 
 
Another post that ignores that Briala has gained control of the Eluvians, and that the Dalish aren't one-dimensional villains. The better question is, why do I even bother?

[EmissaryofLies]

That's a good slogan, Lob. 

 

"The BSN: Why Even Bother?"

[MisterJB]

So, the Dalish do not bear a grudge against humanity and they are not a group competing for the same living space? Good to know.

[Senya]

 
 
Another post that ignores that Briala has gained control of the Eluvians, and that the Dalish aren't one-dimensional villains. The better question is, why do I even bother?

Oh, I know Briala has it. I know she also might still have personal issues with the current Empress.

 

Besides, I know the Dalish aren't one-dimensional villains. Why would I use Loki if I thought they were? He's far from one-dimensional.

 

My point is that I don't really trust anyone with powerful, magical artifacts, especially not people who have a grudge. It's the same reason why I wouldn't sell a gun to a man with a grudge or give a nuke to a nation with a grudge.

[LobselVith8]

So, the Dalish do not bear a grudge against humanity and they are not a group competing for the same living space? Good to know.

 

We've met enough Dalish to know that they don't all hold a grudge against humanity. The clans are diverse and different. As Gaider pointed out at the old Dragon Central board (since it seems to have been ignored the first time I posted it):

 

The Dalish have the Gathering every 10 years, where all the clans are supposed to gather and the Keepers of each clan share their knowledge with each other. This is also where Dalish-wide issues are dealt with, and ideally the Gathering is supposed to keep the Dalish roughly in step with each other. In practice, though, you are correct. Each clan tends to go the way that its Keeper dictates. Some clans are very militant, almost xenophobic. Some are little more than bandits in whatever wilderness they've staked out (this is often the case in Tevinter, for instance). A few are quite benevolent and live in peace with nearby humans -- the Rivaini city of Llomerryn is known to have a semi-permanent Dalish encampment on its outskirts, and trade with the elves for their crafts is encouraged.

[MisterJB]

And that changes the fact their culture holds that humans are plague-bearers and that Dalish are competitors for the same living space how?

Did we not just meet a Dalish clan that wanted to kill every single orlesian?

[MisterJB]

Assuming that's how it works, the elves have now a device that allows them to place an army inside Val-Royeaux if they see fit.

Clearly, they will use this to ensure their polite request for land and acknowledgment of an elven state will reach the eyes of the Empress.

I mean, violence and threats? When have the Dalish ever been a violent people?

[dragondreamer]

I wonder if the Rivaini view of mages plays a role in how the Dalish are able to park themselves in one place for so long without trouble.  Perhaps if they weren't hounded everywhere they go, friendly Dalish would be even more common.

[MisterJB]

I wonder if the Rivaini view of mages plays a role in how the Dalish are able to park themselves in one place for so long without trouble.  Perhaps if they weren't hounded everywhere they go, friendly Dalish would be even more common.

Maybe if they stopped using arrows as a means of saying "Hello", people would be friendlier towards them. It's not like every village has a contigency of Templars so, the possibility that this is all caused by antagonism towards the Keepers loses strenght.

 

One can easily make the argument that a small village like the one encountered in the Dalish Origin might rely upon the forest for survival. Woods for the fires and the houses; animals for meat and furs which can also be traded with caravans, etc. And suddenly, the Dalish set up shot and start telling people where they can and can't go?

Thus, antagonism is created without the involvement of magic.

[Hellion Rex]

I feel for the Dalish, I really do. But the Mirrors are way too much power for any one group to control, especially one that undoubtedly holds vengeful thoughts against Orlais.

 

 

If Morrigan is willing, I'd like her help in counteracting Dalish use of eluvians. Afterwards, smash them all. No one needs this kind of power.

[dragondreamer]

Maybe if they stopped using arrows as a means of saying "Hello", people would be friendlier towards them. It's not like every village has a contigency of Templars so, the possibility that this is all caused by antagonism towards the Keepers loses strenght.

 

One can easily make the argument that a small village like the one encountered in the Dalish Origin might rely upon the forest for survival. Woods for the fires and the houses; animals for meat and furs which can also be traded with caravans, etc. And suddenly, the Dalish set up shot and start telling people where they can and can't go?

Thus, antagonism is created without the involvement of magic.

 

Welp, there's been two games now where I've approached the Dalish with scruffy humans, city elves, dwarves, etc, and I've yet to be shot at as a greeting.  Grumbled at, yes, and I've also been spoken to politely and sometimes apologized to.  However, they have reason to protect their very families from a species with a long history of violence and cruelty towards them, and I can't blame them for that.

[pallascedar]

Aveline: Perfect opportunity to both show off their Dalish techniques to be superior to Orlesian ones and if Aveline rose to power, they have a voice in Orlesian society.

 

Feynriel: He's a Dreamer, and a Dreamer who can control his or her power is a great asset to have. 

 

That's just silly. The Dalish gained nothing through Aveline, even a famous Chevalier wouldn't have earned them much. And Marethari sent Feynriel to Tevinter of all places. Whatever you think of the idea of the Dalish, you cannot paint all Dalish with one brush. Even within a clan ideas can differ greatly (IE: Zathrian was vengeful and xenophobic, Lanaya is quite the opposite). Don't try to argue that the Dalish are always selfish, because it weakens an otherwise strong argument that the Dalish aren't perfect.

 

That being said, I agree with the sentiment that a Dalish country would be likely intolerant of Andrastaian elves, but as others have pointed out: why is that a problem? Andrastian elves would likely not want to move to a Dales that primarily worships the creators and follows the old ways and they wouldn't be forced to do so. Pol obviously never fully integrated into Dalish society: he doesn't have Vasellin, he accidentally brings up the Maker before the creators, but he's clearly totally accepted by the clan. I get the sense that the Dalish would be open to any city elf that wanted to embrace the old ways, and they would be largely forgiving of ignorance that comes as a result of their upbringing.

 

 

Maybe if they stopped using arrows as a means of saying "Hello", people would be friendlier towards them. It's not like every village has a contigency of Templars so, the possibility that this is all caused by antagonism towards the Keepers loses strenght.

Are you talking about the Dalish Origin? Because this is representative of two hunters, not the entire clan and not the entirety of the Dalish. It's pretty obvious from the Origin that Tamlen is a troublemaker.

[sandalisthemaker]

If there is an option to side with the Dalish and have the Inquisition back them and aid their rebellion, then I also hope there is an option to utterly crush them. 

 

I will be taking both options on separate playthroughs if so. Choices are awesome.

[Shadow Fox]

Their lore reads that humans from the Imperium caused the quickening when interacting with the immortal Arlathan elves. That's not the same as taking the example of the Magisters entering the Golden City and condemning mages as a whole for the actions of a handful of Magisters. Despite elven lore, there are a plethora of Dalish who don't view humans, or humanity, with disdain.

 

 

I never claimed it was utopia; you don't seem to have read what I wrote, given the inaccuracies in your post about what I've said. Also, the Dalish aren't perfect; I don't think anyone contests this.

 

 

Being optimistic about the future of an independent Dales, and addressing that freeing the elves wouldn't necessarily result in the apocalypse or an oppressive regime were my points.

 

 

You really didn't bother to read anything I wrote, did you? Considering you also ignored my post citing Gaider's quote, I'm not seeing much point to responding to you any further. Maybe you should save the snide remarks and retorts for an occasion when you've actually bothered to read the other person's posts. Just a thought.

The Dalish belief is that if they cut off all contact with humans they will regain their immortality how is treating a whole race like diseased vermin any less vilifying than the Chantry using the Golden City as a warning against magical abuse and human hubris?

 

That's nice except when you say a Dalish controlled Dales will free the Elves from unjust persecution and how it'll be so much better than Andrastian rule you are painting a vision of Utopia for elves.

 

And pointing out how there's nothing stopping the Dalish from oppressing non-Dalish Elves for not being Dalish is mine.

 

I did I see you going on a tangrant spiel about how humans are evil and under Dalish rule everything will be so much better for the elves whenever myself or others point out that a Dalish ruled society won't necessarily be less oppressive for non Dalish Elves then an Andrastian one.I did there's nothing in it that disproves the notion the Dalish could be oppressive.

[EmissaryofLies]

If there is an option to side with the Dalish and have the Inquisition back them and aid their rebellion, then I also hope there is an option to utterly crush them. 

 

I will be taking both options on separate playthroughs if so. Choices are awesome.

 

Indeed they are. Indeed they are. 

 

People who wish take away these choices can collectively go get f*cked. 

[LobselVith8]

And that changes the fact their culture holds that humans are plague-bearers and that Dalish are competitors for the same living space how?

Elven lore hasn't prevented the Dalish from interacting with humans, adopting a human child, signing a treaty with the Wardens to aid humanity during the Blight, or a number of other examples that show that their lore doesn't prevent them from having contact with humans. I really don't see why I need to continue stressing this point. It's becoming a bit redundant now.

Did we not just meet a Dalish clan that wanted to kill every single orlesian?

We met a single clan that cared nothing for the elves and the humans of the Dales and Orlais. And that reflects the attitudes and views of all the other clans how, exactly?

[Volus Warlord]

The Dalish are little more than tribal savages. Why does anything in their favor sound like a good idea?