2014 réponses à ce sujet

[Mistic]

World of Thedas also seems to say that Shartan converted to being one of Andraste's disciples.

 

I haven't read WoT. What does it say about Shartan?

[BioWareM0d13]

This is... a terrible example, given the Aztecs' hobbies of war and human sacrifices. And what the living hell is wrong with victims of genocide receiving sympathy?

 

The Aztecs are a perfect example, given their history of war and human sacrifice. 

 

One of the popular fan theories is that the immortality of the Elves in the distant past was derived from Blood Magic. If that is the case, that blood may have come from slaves or captives.

 

And even if the Elves were not white knights or saints that doesn't mean they aren't deserving of sympathy. The Aztecs were undoubtedly a cruel civilization, but the Spanish conquistadors were no less brutal. In conquering the Aztecs the Spaniards also butchered many innocents. It wasn't just the blood of warriors or priests that were spilled, and certainly the civilians who were killed for the sake of greed would be deserving of some sympathy.

 

Having the Elves not turn out to be noble victims for me is more appealing becauset it resembles more closely the real world, where most wars aren't struggles between good and evil. Like the real world the history of Thedas mostly dwells in shades of gray. It also presents a scenario with the most hope for ever resolving the clash of civilizations between the humans and Elves, in that neither side would be able to claim the moral high ground and paint the other as evil. If both civilizations were responsible for atrocities and both could come to admit that fact, perhaps there might be some progress.

[Xilizhra]

The last time Morrigan had an eluvian on her hands nobody could stop her. Even stabbing her didn't seem to cause much trouble for her. So I wouldn't get my hopes too high about this.

Why do you think Morrigan would even be on the side of Orlais?

 

 

Prove it. 

Prove otherwise.

 

 

Spoiler

That changes everything...you don't need a corresponding mirror? So you could literally drop an army anywhere in Orlais...only using 1 mirror?

 

Holy sh!t...

Well, that certainly changes things.

[Hellion Rex]

I stand corrected. The Dalish *might* have a chance after all.

[LobselVith8]

Nothing except that Cahntry parafernalia had its share of depictions of Shartan and the Canticle before saying good things about the elves became heresy, and Sister Petrine calls him a devotee of Andraste in the codex entry about Glandivalis. Ok, Chantry souces can be biased, but what about Shartan's very spirit guarding the Sacred Ashes?

 

Shartan was devoted to tearing down the Imperium after leading his fellow elves into escaping from slavery, which is why he lead the elves to fight the Imperium alongside Andraste and the humans. That doesn't mean he surrendered his own beliefs for hers.

 

And the apparition in Shartan's image (in the ruins of the temple) talks about the loss of the homeland of the Dales and being betrayed, not about the real Shartan worshiping the shemlen god. “It was my dream for the people to have a home of their own, where we would have no masters but ourselves. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and thus we followed Andraste, against the Imperium. But she was betrayed, and so were we.”

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Prove otherwise.

Okay. Why have the Gauntlet protect an Elfroot potion? In fact, if just a potion there's no reason to withhold it. You realize how many supporters the Andrastian faith would get if they could produce that in quantity?

 

Your turn.

[Mistic]

Why do you think Morrigan would even be on the side of Orlais?

 

Who is saying anything about being on the side of Orlais? Morrigan is always on her side. If that means taking the eluvians from Briala and her friends, you may not be able to stop her.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I haven't read WoT. What does it say about Shartan?

 

The timeline entry on the Battle of the Valarian Fields is "At the Battle of the Valarian Fields, the elven slave Shartan takes to Maferath's side and leads the elves in a fight against their Tevinter oppressors. He later converts and is made a disciple, only to have his writings suppressed following the Exalted March of the Dales."

[LobselVith8]

World of Thedas also seems to say that Shartan converted to being one of Andraste's disciples.

 

Shartan joined Andraste in fighting against the Imperium, since he was also a slave of Tevinter (as were the elves who followed him). That has nothing to do with a belief in the Maker.

[Xilizhra]

Okay. Why have the Gauntlet protect an Elfroot potion? In fact, if just a potion there's no reason to withhold it. You realize how many followers the Andrastian faith would get if they could produce that in quantity?

 

Your turn.

I wasn't being literal, I was using a metaphor to describe what powers it had. I also don't know why it's hidden like this, because I don't know enough about what the real Andraste long before the Chantry was even like. I do not, however, see it as proof of anything the Chantry says.

 

 

Who is saying anything about being on the side of Orlais? Morrigan is always on her side. If that means taking the eluvians from Briala and her friends, you may not be able to stop her.

If she's acting in an adversarial manner, why not? Even in DA2, while the villains could get away with a lot of crap before being put down, you always did put them down eventually.

[Mistic]

Shartan was devoted to tearing down the Imperium after leading his fellow elves into escaping from slavery, which is why he lead the elves to fight the Imperium alongside Andraste and the humans. That doesn't mean he surrendered his own beliefs for hers.

 

And the apparition in Shartan's image (in the ruins of the temple) talks about the loss of the homeland of the Dales and being betrayed, not about the real Shartan worshiping the shemlen god. “It was my dream for the people to have a home of their own, where we would have no masters but ourselves. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and thus we followed Andraste, against the Imperium. But she was betrayed, and so were we.”

 

It still doesn't mean he didn't convert. It's just your assumption about it, since there's no piece of lore stating he was pagan but there are some suggesting he converted.

[The Hierophant]

The Fereldan civil war didn't force you to support anyone who'd be an ass to minorities. I hold the Orlesian one to the same standards.

Remember that ending slider in DAO of Anora putting down an elven rebellion if she's on the throne alone?

[LobselVith8]

Spoiler

That changes everything...you don't need a corresponding mirror? So you could literally drop an army anywhere in Orlais...only using 1 mirror?

 

Holy sh!t...

 

Exactly.

[Xilizhra]

Remember that ending slider in DAO of Anora putting down an elven rebellion if she's on the throne alone?

And you're not forced to support her, are you?

[Mistic]

If she's acting in an adversarial manner, why not? Even in DA2, while the villains could get away with a lot of crap before being put down, you always did put them down eventually.

 

The game where you couldn't stop one sibling from dying, another sibling from being taken by another organization or dying, your mother from being killed and Anders from blowing up the Chantry is not a good example of being able to stop a character from interfering.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Shartan was devoted to tearing down the Imperium after leading his fellow elves into escaping from slavery, which is why he lead the elves to fight the Imperium alongside Andraste and the humans. That doesn't mean he surrendered his own beliefs for hers.

 

And the apparition in Shartan's image (in the ruins of the temple) talks about the loss of the homeland of the Dales and being betrayed, not about the real Shartan worshiping the shemlen god. “It was my dream for the people to have a home of their own, where we would have no masters but ourselves. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and thus we followed Andraste, against the Imperium. But she was betrayed, and so were we.”

 

I'm pretty sure he doesn't mention the Dales. He only mentions being betrayed, and given that he died before there ever was a Dales I'm of the opinion he was simply referring to Maferath's betrayal. Which is a reasonable thing for him to be upset about given that he perished in it.

[Xilizhra]

The game where you couldn't stop one sibling from dying, another sibling from being taken by another organization or dying, your mother from being killed and Anders from blowing up the Chantry is not a good example of being able to stop a character from interfering.

Unless Morrigan destroys all of the Eluvians or something, that wouldn't matter.

 

And again, I don't even think she would be adversarial in this situation.

[Mistic]

The timeline entry on the Battle of the Valarian Fields is "At the Battle of the Valarian Fields, the elven slave Shartan takes to Maferath's side and leads the elves in a fight against their Tevinter oppressors. He later converts and is made a disciple, only to have his writings suppressed following the Exalted March of the Dales."

 

So there is confirmation. Thanks!

[Hellion Rex]

Exactly.

This just got infinitely more interesting.

[LobselVith8]

It still doesn't mean he didn't convert. It's just your assumption about it, since there's no piece of lore stating he was pagan but there are some suggesting he converted.

 

It doesn't mean he did, either. The Chantry of Andraste faced a number of problems in trying to convert the elves. The History of the Elves reads, "But you already know that something went wrong. Our ancestors' worship of the old elven gods angered the human Chantry, which constantly sent missionaries to our land. The Chantry wanted to convert our people to their worship of the Maker, but the Dalish would not submit."

[Hellion Rex]

@Lobsel

 

Spoiler

I wonder if the reverse if possible as well...if you can send an army somewhere with 1 mirror...could you use an eluvian to actually recall people back through the mirror?

[Mistic]

It doesn't mean he did, either. The Chantry of Andraste faced a number of problems in trying to convert the elves. The History of the Elves reads, "But you already know that something went wrong. Our ancestors' worship of the old elven gods angered the human Chantry, which constantly sent missionaries to our land. The Chantry wanted to convert our people to their worship of the Maker, but the Dalish would not submit."

 

According to Jedi Master of Orion, the entry on the Battle of the Valarian Field in WoT says he did convert. What do you say about that?

[LobselVith8]

I'm pretty sure he doesn't mention the Dales. He only mentions being betrayed, and given that he died before there ever was a Dales I'm of the opinion he was simply referring to Maferath's betrayal. Which is a reasonable thing for him to be upset about given that he perished in it.

 

The apparition's sentence addresses that his people dreamed of a homeland of their own, and it addresses a mutual betrayal. You're certainly welcome to your own opinion, however.

[The Hierophant]

And you're not forced to support her, are you?

My point is that without meta knowledge you won't know how a character you supported will act in the future.

[Xilizhra]

My point is that without meta knowledge you won't know how a character you supported will act in the future.

And that is why I abuse the living hell out of it when necessary. If I need to do so to get an elven victory here, I'll do it in a heartbeat.