2014 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

So you think an entire people should suffer for another millennia because war causes casualties?

 

Which those losses are far greater then the number of those people supposedly suffering?

 

I do.

[Xilizhra]

"War is one of many diplomatic methods. However it is the most inefficient one." - Bismark Waldstein from Code Geass

Then let's make sure we end it as soon as possible, yes?

[LobselVith8]

What's not to get? The Dalish consistently look upon their "flat-eared" cousins with contempt, and their stated goal is to teach them how to be proper elves.

 

City elves also use the term "flat ear" as well. There are city elves who look down on the Dalish as savages and on the elves who try to live outside of the Alienage. I simply don't see the point in condemning either group because of how the opinions and views held by some of them.

 

Having the opportunity to play as an elven protagonist from one of the clans doesn't make me see the elves living under human rule as the enemy; they need help, too. I'm optimistic about a Dalish Inquisitor being able to help both societies of elves.

[Master Warder Z_]

Then let's make sure we end it as soon as possible, yes?

 

For once we agree.

 

But i have a feeling the conflict will be background noise for at least until DAI's Sequel.

[LobselVith8]

"War is one of many diplomatic methods. However it is the most inefficient one." - Bismark Waldstein from Code Geass

 

Do you feel that way about Shartan and Andraste's war against the Imperium?

[TK514]

That is not something I think I'll push for. If anything, I'll try to reunite Celene and Briala.

Of course you would. You want Orlais to fall, one way or another, and Briala prevents Celene from being the Empress she needs to be to hold it all together.

You've complained about this before so I wonder, now, how you feel about a strong female character being undone and beaten at her own game by the hyper masculine antagonist due to her relationship?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Do you feel that way about Shartan and Andraste's war against the Imperium?

I agree with that view about war in comparison to diplomacy, yes. That said, I'm not an idiot and know sometimes there is no other recourse. In Andraste's case, people have tried everything else so when all other options fail, you go with what's left. 

[Hellion Rex]

It just doesn't make sense to me. As for the WoT mention about Dalish and spirits, "Unlike other spellcasters, Dalish mages do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous." (page 104) It follows the same line of thought that's expressed by Merrill, who says all spirits are dangerous, and chastises Anders by saying there's no such thing as a good spirit.

 

Spoiler

Felassan was an enigma. Who do you think Felassan was working for?

Spoiler

Maybe Fen'Harel? Or perhaps an elven deity that's roaming around?

[Hellion Rex]

"War is one of many diplomatic methods. However it is the most inefficient one." - Bismark Waldstein from Code Geass

Good quote, hated the anime.

[The Elder King]

I don't think a marriage between Celene and Gaspard (or even a reconciliation between Celene and Briala) will be possible. But I'd definitely try it both (with different PC) if I'm wrong.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Good quote, hated the anime.

Well, to each their own. I loved that anime. It's one of my Top 5. 

 

But yeah, that quote has greater impact in context. The man who says it is the strongest soldier and general on the 'antagonist' side.

[wcholcombe]

Gaspard would never hand the Dales over to them. Not in a million years. And the bitterness of noble houses can last for generations, let alone a mere 20 years.

Yes, but nobody really claims the dales now as it is.  It isn't like you would be taking something away from people.  Orlesians don't live or work in the "Dales" as they currently exist. It is a no mans land.

[LobselVith8]

Of course you would. You want Orlais to fall, one way or another, and Briala prevents Celene from being the Empress she needs to be to hold it all together.

You've complained about this before so I wonder, now, how you feel about a strong female character being undone and beaten at her own game by the hyper masculine antagonist due to her relationship?

 

I don't think Gaspard is necessary for Orlais' success. He's certainly fleshed out as a three-dimensional character (given how he keeps Michel's secret at the end), but there are certain issues that some may find irreconcilable with certain protagonists (like Ferelden's autonomy as an independent kingdom). I also don't think that Celene's relationship with Briala would be disastrous for Orlais, although I have trouble imagining Briala reconciling with Celene on a romantic level after what she'd discovered.

[wcholcombe]

You think Briala would forgive Celene?

Definitely. Briala is far more a player of the game then either Gaspard or Celene and far more cut throat.

[TK514]

I don't think Gaspard is necessary for Orlais' success. He's certainly fleshed out as a three-dimensional character (given how he keeps Michel's secret at the end), but there are certain issues that some may find irreconcilable with certain protagonists (like Ferelden's autonomy as an independent kingdom). I also don't think that Celene's relationship with Briala would be disastrous for Orlais, although I have trouble imagining Briala reconciling with Celene on a romantic level after what she'd discovered.

Yet you can not deny that Celene's dependence on her relationship with Briala is what prevented her from forging the necessary alliances, via marriage, that would have stopped the Civil War before it started. Alliances, I might add, that Briala urged her to make. You also can not deny that the nature of the relationship is what caused Celene to walk directly into Gaspard's trap.

[LobselVith8]

Definitely. Briala is far more a player of the game then either Gaspard or Celene and far more cut throat.

 

I'm sure Briala would work with Celene for the betterment of her people. I meant romantically.

[MisterJB]

It is an Alienage though. Sure, it'll be as nice and clean as the elves make it, but it shares the same purpose, which is to spare humans from the utter insult of having elves exist within their proximity. And yes, I find it very amusing that the "pro-elves" think this is actually a good thing.

So? If two things just won't go together no matter how much you smash them against each other, why must we continue to prolong suffering so they are together for no other purpose than to not be separated?

If the humans and elves can't coexist then, by all means, separate them. It's what they want, anyway. This rebellion that Celene crushed was meant to expell the humans from Halamshiral.

 

Not that I think giving them a city would solve anything; but,at least, I'm thinking on practical terms.

[LobselVith8]

Yet you can not deny that Celene's dependence on her relationship with Briala is what prevented her from forging the necessary alliances, via marriage, that would have stopped the Civil War before it started. Alliances, I might add, that Briala urged her to make. You also can not deny that the nature of the relationship is what caused Celene to walk directly into Gaspard's trap.

 

There have been pros and cons to the relationship. Briala's insights were beneficial to Celene outmaneuvering Gaspard in the confrontation with Teagan, for example. Celene has also used the allure of a possible marriage with her to her advantage, which was brought up early on.

 

Xil likely has her own reasons to add in the myriad of reasons that she may prefer Celene and Briala. They are two strong, intelligent woman in their own right, and an interracial relationship by human/elven terms. They've helped and hurt each other; there's a lot of interesting story to explore in that respect. I think a successful lesbian relationship may be part of the appeal of Celene and Briala as well, in contrast to what we've seen with the more sadistic lesbian relationships with Leliana and Branka.

[wcholcombe]

I'm sure Briala would work with Celene for the betterment of her people. I meant romantically.

I don't see them coming back together romantically. Not with how it ended.

 

Now that I have finished the book however, I no longer consider the eluvians as being a plot device of the Dalish....

[Master Warder Z_]

I don't see them coming back together romantically. Not with how it ended.

 

Now that I have finished the book however, I no longer consider the eluvians as being a plot device of the Dalish....

 

They are merely the tools of whatever entity handed them to the elves.

 

From the Origin of the Ruby...Well we can safely guess at what that was, I still advocate their destruction.

[LobselVith8]

I don't see them coming back together romantically. Not with how it ended.

 

Now that I have finished the book however, I no longer consider the eluvians as being a plot device of the Dalish....

 

Briala's intention to use the Eluvians to help the elves is what I find appealing. She seems like an interesting person. After establishing a base of operations in Ferelden, I'd love for my elven Inquisitor to head over to the Dales and meet her.

[wcholcombe]

They are merely the tools of whatever entity handed them to the elves.

 

From the Origin of the Ruby...Well we can safely guess at what that was, I still advocate their destruction.

My point was that Briala won't be using them for the Dalish Warder.  Previously from the spoilers I had read, I thought she was going to join the dalish.  Definitely not the case now.

Spoiler

Claiming the eluvians for the "Elves of Orlais" is a pretty specific group.

[Mistic]

I'd say culturally different, given the emphasis on Spirits and Demons being the Children of the Maker in the codex entries written by Andrastians, which isn't likely to be shared by a Dalish elf who believes in the Creators.

 

Yes, but WoT saying that the Dalish turn away from spirit magic as a whole points to a more significant difference in demonology than just a different categorization of the Fade's inhabitants. 

 

Also, everyone is easily taken by Caress and Wryme; it isn't much of a reflection of anyone because all of the companions betray Hawke in a matter of seconds. It's like condemning Cullen because he handwaves the Champion's warning about Anders' plot against the Kirkwall Chantry.

 

Yes, but the rest of them weren't mages. You know, the people with awesome powers in constant danger of being possessed by a demon and thus in serious need of good preparation against that eventuality. The other mage was Anders and he passed with flying colors (ok, Justice's help is unfair in that comparison).

 

And by the way, thanks to the jarring gameplay and story segregation, yes, the templars in Kirkwall seemed the stupidest templars around.

[Master Warder Z_]

My point was that Briala won't be using them for the Dalish Warder.  Previously from the spoilers I had read, I thought she was going to join the dalish.  Definitely not the case now.

Spoiler

Claiming the eluvians for the "Elves of Orlais" is a pretty specific group.

 

True.

[The Baconer]

So? If two things just won't go together no matter how much you smash them against each other, why must we continue to prolong suffering so they are together for no other purpose than to not be separated?

If the humans and elves can't coexist then, by all means, separate them. It's what they want, anyway. This rebellion that Celene crushed was meant to expell the humans from Halamshiral.

 

Not that I think giving them a city would solve anything; but,at least, I'm thinking on practical terms.

 

Because they can co-exist.

 

And if they can't, well, giving them some fake and transitory "independent state" would be prolonging inevitable suffering as well, as opposed to killing them all and getting it over with.