2014 réponses à ce sujet

[The Elder King]

Im reading comments about book and events in it (i don't have book) but it seems that both gaspard and celene skull will be perfect on my throne hmm i hope it won't be another enforced when i have to chose 1 of them instead go against both.

Possibly if there's a choice in supporting Briala related to the struggle between Gaspard and Celene (Briala's plot might be indipendant from the OCW).

[EmissaryofLies]

._.

 

Uh how the heck is it hyperbole?

 

It happened.

 

 

"Mages are truly the ones with a mind for avoiding civilian casualties at all costs"  

 

Then he throws Anders into the mix, which insinuates that circle mages are like Anders, radicals who'd kill anyone for mage freedom.

 

Even though Anders is an apostate Grey Warden and the Circle is melting pot of differing views, some radically different. Especially in comparison to the almost uniform Templars. 

 

Edit: That is not to say that some won't be like Anders in terms of disposition. But there's little reason to believe that they'll be going around blowing up villages and chantries, given the fact that they are the underdogs and need to build sympathy. Disregarding citizens would be the most idiotic thing that they could do. It's akin to the templars doing much of the same. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Possibly if there's a choice in supporting Briala related to the struggle between Gaspard and Celene (Briala's plot might be indipendant from the OCW).

To be honest instead supporting someone i would like chose my own side like in F:NV so i would like to fourth option as well

[Steelcan]

How about all those mages who became abominations during the attempted annulment? They were also clearly acting of out of concern for civilians.

Unleashing demons into the middle of a city is a great way to win support.

[LobselVith8]

I was only referring to the situation at the time Celene offered honorary lordship but, you are correct; the situation is different.

However, how exactly do you propose creating this new elven state?

 

With the Inquisition, which can be lead by an elven Inquisitor. Forging ties with the elves in the Dales who want to be free of a system that recently lead to the death of thousands of their fellow elves, extending a hand to Dalish elves who have the mindset to see their former homeland free of Orlesian occupation, and establishing an alliance with the mages who want to keep their autonomy.

 

The eluvians have boosted the power of the City Elves but only to an extent. Unlike what we previously thought, they are not rebelling and even if they were, there is little point in being able to set up ambushes in places where are Eluvians; which are limited; if you don't have the manpower to actually make your ambushes suceed and the City Elves simply don't have the power to create an independent elven state in the Dales and making it stick. The Eluvians provided them with escape routes and supply routes, not silverite armors and years of training.

 

Briala is aiming to get people to work with her for the goal of setting the elves free, even by using the civil war to that end. We also have precedents in our own history of guerrilla fighters achieving victory over larger forces, and even slave rebellions that lead to independence for the region.

 

As for the Dalish, they seem to be more of a military power than the CE; altough that is debatable. They have better equipment and training; altough they are still leagues below the Chevaliers as evidenced by Ser Michel; but their numbers are very reduced. One clan appears to be composed of 50 or so Dalish while there are 10000 CE in Val-Royeaux alone (honestly, this alone should really put into question who truly are the last hope of the elven race. Clearly, the CEs are the one who have a sustainable birth rate). But the Dalish are not united and they have no stake in this conflict unlike with DAO where the treaties compelled the to fight. They have shown an unwillingness to cooperate either with orlesians or CEs making the possibility of the Dalish alone being able to take the Dales and keeping it a remote one.

 

The Dalish were viewed as a sufficient fighting force that the Wardens asked them to sign a treaty to aid during a time of Blight. I'm also not seeing Ser Michel and atypical Dalish who don't even adhere to the traditions of their people as evidence of any universal comparison between chevaliers and typical Dalish elves. As for "showing an unwillingness" - again, one single clan that can't even maintain their traditions isn't evidence that the Dalish would be unwilling to work alongside their city brethren.

 

Of course, you will claim that not every clan is like the one in this book and that there is a gathering happening in the Dales which would eliminate the problem of the clans not having much contact with each other and they might even look past their animosity towards CE and unite for a brigther future for all elves... but that goes against everything shown in this book. Briala will, most likely, rise as the leader of the CEs and she does not think of the Dalish as her people.

 

That's because the clan in the book doesn't even respect the ethos of the Dalish, like the prohibition against dealing with spirits mentioned in World of Thedas: "Unlike other spellcasters, Dalish mages do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous." (page 104) Bringing up a clan that isn't typical of standard Dalish behavior will, of course, lead me to point out that it's disingenuous to paint them as an example of how the Dalish will response.

 

And even if, somehow, the elves managed to actually win some victories against human armies, that would either result in:

a) Celene and Gaspard uniting. Nothing unites a country better than a common enemy.

b ) Celene or Gaspard turning her/his attention towards the elves so as to prove that s/he can protect the empire, unlike her/his opponent

 

If the civil war in Ferelden taught me anything, it's that even the apocalypse may not be sufficient enough to halt a feud for the throne.

[EmissaryofLies]

How about all those mages who became abominations during the attempted annulment? They were also clearly acting of out of concern for civilians.

Unleashing demons into the middle of a city is a great way to win support.

 

They were probably more concerned about the Templars surrounding them and gutting their friends. 

 

They were fighting the enemy. 

 

They were in the gallows. 

 

Despite the Harvestino, which a developer is on the record for stating that he was 'another boss fight', there's no reason to believe that it is or will be a norm. Especially nothing near what Janders did. 

[LobselVith8]

If one side begins using the elves; which is doubtful, Briala won't trust either of them and neither will the Dalish; the other side will just claim this is evidence they intend to steal human lands and give it to elves which might sway some nobles away from the pretender to the throne who used the elves. This, of course, means that they both will be reluctant to ally with the elves and, even if they did, their forces would diminish because of it which would bring their victory into question and, simultaneously, elven victory.

 

Frankly, I'd rather not see the elven storyline marginalized for a human plotline. I don't see the implausibility of the elves achieving a victory in the Dales when our own history has numerous examples of this being entirely plausible.

[Han Shot First]

Except that's not what Celene did.  She put down a rebellion.  She'd have been forced to do the same if it had been human peasants.  It's an unpleasant responsibility of being a monarch.  And she wouldn't have had to do anything if the Lord who was supposed to be in charge of the situation had done his job in the first place, and if Gaspard hadn't outmaneuvered her.  You also conveniently neglect to mention that Celene's directed and acted on choice in dealing with the situation was to leave the rebelling peasants alone and assassinate a member of the nobility to give them some justice.  Unfortunately, that option for ending the situation was taken out of her hands.

 

My Inquisitor is going to generally be sympathetic to the plight of the elves. He doesn't believe there should be tiers of citizenship or segregation, and supports elves gaining all the rights granted to human citizens of Orlais. (or other nations) That sympathy won't extend however to rebellion, and any who take up arms against the state would be dealt with mercilessly. Once they turn to violence and sow chaos and disorder, they've signed their own death warrants.

 

In short, someone in a position of authority putting down an elven rebellion isn't necessarily a sign that they are anti-elf. Their duties to the realm outweigh all other considerations, and a kingdom being turn apart by internal conflict benefits no one.

[Hellion Rex]

My guess is that Merrill's Eluvian worked perfectly well, Merrill just didn't know the activation phrase.

But why was it even active in the Brecilian Forest, when the rest of the network was still shut down?

[LobselVith8]

But why was it even active in the Brecilian Forest, when the rest of the network was still shut down?

 

The Eluvian in the Brecillian Forest (not Merrill's) may have been activated beforehand; Tamlen does mention that he saw an underground city.

[Aimi]

Edit: That is not to say that some won't be like Anders in terms of disposition. But there's little reason to believe that they'll be going around blowing up villages and chantries, given the fact that they are the underdogs and need to build sympathy. Disregarding citizens would be the most idiotic thing that they could do. It's akin to the templars doing much of the same. 

I think that this is more of a projection on your part than a statement based on observed behavior in DA2 and Asunder. One might make the valid argument that an underdog doesn't have the time or effort to waste on something so potentially useless as sympathy, and that anti-Circle mages need to wield any and every weapon at their disposal in order to survive the templars, regardless of the effects of those weapons on the general populace. They might simply not care about mundanes as irrelevant to the mage-templar conflict, or they might see terrorizing mundanes as a valid method of suasion with respect to secular institutions.

Do we know which of those potential responses most mages will take in DA:I? I don't think we do: there are arguments in favor of all of them, and there are certainly real-world analogues to each.

[Hellion Rex]

I guess for Morrigan's mirror, that Dalish book she got must have held an activation phrase for a mirror.

[MisterJB]

With the Inquisition, which can be lead by an elven Inquisitor. Forging ties with the elves in the Dales who want to be free of a system that recently lead to the death of thousands of their fellow elves, extending a hand to Dalish elves who have the mindset to see their former homeland free of Orlesian occupation, and establishing an alliance with the mages who want to keep their autonomy.

 

Because we're the PC is hardly an answer. And mages in the Circles are either human or city elves which means the chances of the Dalish cooperating with them are not good.

BTW, Celene killed those elves because they were rebelling.

 

Briala is aiming to get people to work with her for the goal of setting the elves free, even by using the civil war to that end. We also have precedents in our own history of guerrilla fighters achieving victory over larger forces, and even slave rebellions that lead to independence for the region.

 

Their spears are made of poles with knives tied to them and their shields are tables.

Let's be realistic, the city elves wouldn't stand a chance of expelling any humans from anywhere, much less mantaining land. And we haven't heard anything about the CEs rebelling. Briala was against armed rebellion exactly because she understood that it would lead to nothing but dead elves. She will likely use the mirrors to aid the elves against the law but that does not equal leading an armed rebellion.

 

The Dalish were viewed as a sufficient fighting force that the Wardens asked them to sign a treaty to aid during a time of Blight.

 

They were used to complement Warden forces that would be composed of humans, dwarves, mages, etc.

They weren't expected to fight a war alone against the strongest empire in the world.

 

I'm also not seeing Ser Michel and atypical Dalish who don't even adhere to the traditions of their people as evidence of any universal comparison between chevaliers and typical Dalish elves.

 

Dealing with spirits has nothing to do with the martial prowess of their warriors and Ser Michel killed eight plus the First with no problems.

He killed three with a blanket. That's how badass the Chevaliers. Granted, Ser Michel is not your average Chevalier but I think that this is a good example of what would happened if they actually tried to fight an army of them.

 

As for "showing an unwillingness" - again, one single clan that can't even maintain their traditions isn't evidence that the Dalish would be unwilling to work alongside their city brethren.

 

 

That's because the clan in the book doesn't even respect the ethos of the Dalish, like the prohibition against dealing with spirits mentioned in World of Thedas: "Unlike other spellcasters, Dalish mages do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous." (page 104) Bringing up a clan that isn't typical of standard Dalish behavior will, of course, lead me to point out that it's disingenuous to paint them as an example of how the Dalish will response.

If the civil war in Ferelden taught me anything, it's that even the apocalypse may not be sufficient enough to halt a feud for the throne.

 

How many examples do we have of the Dalish being welcoming to a city elf? One, Pol. Meanwhile, we have this clan, we have Vellana, we have Zathrian's clan all being unwelcoming if not dowright hostile.

And what gives you the impression the City Elves under Briala, who dislike Dalish, would even trust them?

 

Is it possible for there to be an alliance between Ces, dalish and Circle mages? Sure, but we are talking about three entirely different cultural groups with much hatred and distrust between them. The Dalish hate humans and dislike city elves; both groups fear mages, etc. Their struggle is not even the same.

What if the city elves don't want to work with mages because, being Andrastian, they fear magic? What if the Dalish elves want to expell all humans from Orlais? Why would the human mages accept this treatment of their kin?

 

The chances of them cooperating are much more scarce than that of Celene and Gaspard setting their differences aside.

 

 

 

 

[Hellion Rex]

One thing I'm not sure of: Does Gaspard hold control of all chevaliers as Grand Duke? Or are those men still under the command of Celene?

[MisterJB]

Lobselvith: You're not really presenting strategies on how the elves could possibly win. Just saying "Maybe they'll form alliances, we're the Inquisition so we should be able to help."

 

Arguments like "Briala has an understand of high orlesian society, therefore it is possible she might be able to use the Eluvians to steal decent equipment for the city elves" would be more persuasing and realistic.

[EmissaryofLies]

I think that this is more of a projection on your part than a statement based on observed behavior in DA2 and Asunder. One might make the valid argument that an underdog doesn't have the time or effort to waste on something so potentially useless as sympathy, and that anti-Circle mages need to wield any and every weapon at their disposal in order to survive the templars, regardless of the effects of those weapons on the general populace. They might simply not care about mundanes as irrelevant to the mage-templar conflict, or they might see terrorizing mundanes as a valid method of suasion with respect to secular institutions.

Do we know which of those potential responses most mages will take in DA:I? I don't think we do: there are arguments in favor of all of them, and there are certainly real-world analogues to each.

 

Sure, some of them will. 

 

But to insinuate that most or that even a lot will be callous and unconcerned when it comes to civilians is silly. Especially under a decent leadership. You also have to consider that Anders had Justice driving him to do what he done. Most mages do not have abominations  inside of them. Most mages have not blown up the Chantry. Most mages have not set villages aflame. 

 

I can agree that it all remains to be seen. But I've a feeling that my beliefs will be vindicated. 

[MisterJB]

One thing I'm not sure of: Does Gaspard hold control of all chevaliers as Grand Duke? Or are those men still under the command of Celene?

I assume the chevaliers will side with whoever their noble families side.

[LobselVith8]

Because we're the PC is hardly an answer. And mages in the Circles are either human or city elves which means the chances of the Dalish cooperating with them are not good.

BTW, Celene killed those elves because they were rebelling.

 

You didn't set any parameters as to the direction of the discussion, and you asked a hypothetical. Since the Inquisition is likely to play a part in the events in the Dales and Orlais, I didn't see a reason to preclude it at the time. This wasn't a discussion that precluded the existence of the Inquisition, the Inquisitor, or the veil tears. And I don't deny that Celene killed thousands of elves.

 

Their spears are made of poles with knives tied to them and their shields are tables.

Let's be realistic, the city elves wouldn't stand a chance of expelling any humans from anywhere, much less mantaining land. And we haven't heard anything about the CEs rebelling. Briala was against armed rebellion exactly because she understood that it would lead to nothing but dead elves. She will likely use the mirrors to aid the elves against the law but that does not equal leading an armed rebellion.

 

You continue to speak as though you're privy to clans you've never even met.

 

Also, let's be realistic: nothing I say will change your mind. The numerous precedents of our own history which explicitly contradict your claim that the downtrodden couldn't possibly win against a superior force wouldn't be sufficient, either. I don't think it's impossible for the elves to achieve victory, because real life has shown that, in similar situations, it's within the realm of possibility.

 

As for Briala, she wants to see her people free. That's the storyline I'm interested in seeing explored, independent of the Orlesian civil war.

 

They were used to complement Warden forces that would be composed of humans, dwarves, mages, etc.

They weren't expected to fight a war alone against the strongest empire in the world.

 

In other words, they were viewed as a sufficient fighting force. And if our own history has taught us anything, it's that empires aren't immune to losses. With the veil tears and the Mage-Templar War possibly bleeding over into the Orlesian Empire, the Orlesian Empire isn't even at full strength; there's a civil war going on over the throne. I think it would be the perfect opportunity for the elves to attempt to overthrow the Orlesian occupation of their kingdom.

 

Dealing with spirits has nothing to do with the martial prowess of their warriors and Ser Michel killed eight plus the First with no problems.

He killed three with a blanket. That's how badass the Chevaliers. Granted, Ser Michel is not your average Chevalier but I think that this is a good example of what would happened if they actually tried to fight an army of them.

 

Disregarding the traditions and values of the Dalish shows that the clan is atypical of the Dalish. You're using atypical Dalish, and acting as though they should be representative of the entirety of the People, which is the problem I have with your argument. They aren't, so I don't see why they should be.

 

How many examples do we have of the Dalish being welcoming to a city elf? One, Pol. Meanwhile, we have this clan, we have Vellana, we have Zathrian's clan all being unwelcoming if not dowright hostile. And what gives you the impression the City Elves under Briala, who dislike Dalish, would even trust them?

 

We have a clan that adopted an infant child, who became Aveline. Velanna was shunned by her clan, who responded positively at her being in the company of humans, so I don't see how you're sincerely using her as an example of how the Dalish would typically act. We also have Zathrian's clan in the middle of suffering from numerous werewolf attacks, and the First Lanaya isn't originally Dalish; we also see the clan turn their views around when the protagonist shows that he isn't an enemy, since even Sarel (who recently lost his wife to werewolves) will positively remark on things like helping Elora's halla.

 

And we haven't even met the elves who Briala will bring into the fold, so I don't see why you're jumping the gun in making assumptions about men and women we haven't even met yet.

[AresKeith]

In any case, it's a war the templars started. It has to be fought for survival if nothing else.

 

lol

[TK514]

Sure, some of them will. 

 

But to insinuate that most or that even a lot will be callous and unconcerned when it comes to civilians is silly. Especially under a decent leadership. You also have to consider that Anders had Justice driving him to do what he done. Most mages do not have abominations  inside of them. Most mages have not blown up the Chantry. Most mages have not set villages aflame. 

 

I can agree that it all remains to be seen. But I've a feeling that my beliefs will be vindicated. 

 

I imagine many of them, particularly the less experienced, will take behavioral cues from their leaders.  So you'll have those who use their power with forethought and moderation, and you'll have those that follow Adrian's "friendly fire and property damage for everyone!" approach.

[AresKeith]

By and large, mages aren't being piloted by taint-maddened spirits.

 

You can blame Vengeance all you want, but that was Anders 

[LobselVith8]

Is it possible for there to be an alliance between Ces, dalish and Circle mages? Sure, but we are talking about three entirely different cultural groups with much hatred and distrust between them. The Dalish hate humans and dislike city elves; both groups fear mages, etc. Their struggle is not even the same. What if the city elves don't want to work with mages because, being Andrastian, they fear magic? What if the Dalish elves want to expell all humans from Orlais? Why would the human mages accept this treatment of their kin?

 

I don't pretend that it would be harmonious, but if there's a common goal to be had, even unlikely allies can make sense in a time of crisis. The elves of the Dales who want their independence, the Dalish who desire their own homeland, and the mages who seek to maintain their autonomy from the Chantry and the Order of Templars, may work together towards the common goal of fighting their common enemies.

 

The chances of them cooperating are much more scarce than that of Celene and Gaspard setting their differences aside.

 

I don't think the possibility is that narrow. I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree.

 

Lobselvith: You're not really presenting strategies on how the elves could possibly win. Just saying "Maybe they'll form alliances, we're the Inquisition so we should be able to help."

 

Arguments like "Briala has an understand of high orlesian society, therefore it is possible she might be able to use the Eluvians to steal decent equipment for the city elves" would be more persuasing and realistic.

 

You didn't ask for strategies. You asked a pretty open question, and only now are you narrowing down what, specifically, you're asking for in a retort. However, we're on two completely opposing sides to this, so aside from genuine curiosity, I don't see either one of us changing our stance on how we want to proceed on this issue.

[AresKeith]

I guess for Morrigan's mirror, that Dalish book she got must have held an activation phrase for a mirror.

 

That's what I'm guessing after the info from TME

[Hellion Rex]

That's what I'm guessing after the info from TME

But it still took a magical gem to reactivate the whole entire network itself though. Celene's group still needed the gem to walk through mirrors to get to the heart of the matrix, and that was long before Briala created the passphrase.

[AresKeith]

But it still took a magical gem to reactivate the whole entire network itself though. Celene's group still needed the gem to walk through mirrors to get to the heart of the matrix, and that was long before Briala created the passphrase.

 

Maybe Morrigan was able to find one from the book