2014 réponses à ce sujet

[TK514]

Zathrian could be brought around to help the werewolves, and it's not as though Celene could never be moved to apologize and seek redemption for her actions.

 

She already apologized, and Briala already agreed she had no other choice.

[Xilizhra]

She already apologized, and Briala already agreed she had no other choice.

Well, spiffy. Now all Celene needs to do is have the pressure from Gaspard taken off her and agree to help the elves in the way that Briala wants, and we can have all this sorted out.

[LobselVith8]

I speculated on that being the case when I first posed the question to Lob as Fellassan states the seperation of the Clans has led to widely different interpretations of what being Dalish means. Lob has stated similar in regards to how the clans will all deal with non dalish differently, but he never replied to my point about the effects of the seperation of the dalish on their beliefs.

 

I'm sure it can vary, I simply don't see why it seems to vary into being little different than Andrastian views - to the point where the terms 'Spirits' and 'Demons' would be used, as Merrill and Anders have multiple religious debates because she doesn't share his distinctions while acknowledging that all spirits are different, and stresses that there's no such thing as a good spirit, since all spirits are dangerous; the same message that is echoed by WoT addressing that the Dalish view all spirits as dangerous, and abhor using magic that involves spirits as a consequence.

 

Ok, Andrastians--possibly view spirits as good and demons as bad.

Dalish-view all spirits and demons as dangerous wild animals who should only be dealt with with extreme care.

 

Those are in no way the same.

 

Because there are multiple discussions where it's addressed that the distinction with Spirits and Demons isn't shared?

 

Anders: Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons.

 

Merrill: Did I ask you?

 

Anders: Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations. The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor.

 

Merrill: Your "Maker" is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours.

 

Furthermore, it's stressed that all spirits are dangerous, by Merrill and World of Thedas. Not Spirits and Demons, but spirits. Holding the view there are Spirits and Demons because of some cultural and religious view is different than viewing all spirits as dangerous, and Felassan's words may be indicating that the Dalish cultural and religious perspective is being dropped in favor of giving them the same views as Andrastians.

[TK514]

Well, spiffy. Now all Celene needs to do is have the pressure from Gaspard taken off her and agree to help the elves in the way that Briala wants, and we can have all this sorted out.

As a matter of fact, Celene explicitly states that she knew all along Briala was trying to manipulate her to help the Elves, and she would have done it anyway, because she views the City Elves as Orlesians first.  She also states that if Briala were to die, it wouldn't matter, because Celene would continue to do everything she could to improve the lot of her elven subjects.

 

Lob likes to try to paint her as a villian, but the fact of the matter is she tried to end the situation in Halamshiral to the benefit of the Elves by having the bigoted noble responsible assassinated.  Sadly, it came too late because her political opponents forced her to deal with the situation as it really was, namely an armed rebellion.  Had it been human peasants instead of elven ones, the outcome would have been exactly the same.

[Master Warder Z_]

Zathrian could be brought around to help the werewolves, and it's not as though Celene could never be moved to apologize and seek redemption for her actions.

 

I really don't see why she should apologize for actions that she more or less made up for over the decades.

[LobselVith8]

Lob likes to try to paint her as a villian, but the fact of the matter is she tried to end the situation in Halamshiral to the benefit of the Elves by having the bigoted noble responsible assassinated.  Sadly, it came too late because her political opponents forced her to deal with the situation as it really was, namely an armed rebellion.  Had it been human peasants instead of elven ones, the outcome would have been exactly the same.

 

You seem to conveniently forget that I was responding to someone else who brought it up. As for villain, I said I'd prefer not to side with either Celene or Gaspard, as well as addressing that they were both written as three-dimensional characters.

[Hellion Rex]

You seem to conveniently forget that I was responding to someone else who brought it up. As for villain, I said I'd prefer not to side with either Celene or Gaspard, as well as addressing that they were both written as three-dimensional characters.

I would like to know what you actually think of Celene, though.

[Shadow Fox]

NPC: Hey didn't Ferelden try to set something like this up? What happened?

 

Elf NPC: It ended... poorly.

 

*Flashback*

 

Other Elf NPC: Naww I'm telling you guys summoning this Uber Demon can't possibly backfire! Then we'll show those filthy Shemlen what's what!

 

*Demon kills almost everyone*

 

*end of flashback*

 

Elf NPC:... mistakes were made.

 

 

A thousand apologies I can fix it.

 

NPC: Hey didn't Ferelden try giving its Elves more internal autonomy in the capital?

 

Elf NPC: It didn't end well...

 

*Flashback*

 

Elf Leader: Guys its so obvious! We should risk everything we've gained and use it all to buy ye olde stock on margin! It can't possibly fail!

 

*end of flashback*

 

Elf NPC: Mistakes were made...

ROFLMAO

[Xilizhra]

As a matter of fact, Celene explicitly states that she knew all along Briala was trying to manipulate her to help the Elves, and she would have done it anyway, because she views the City Elves as Orlesians first.  She also states that if Briala were to die, it wouldn't matter, because Celene would continue to do everything she could to improve the lot of her elven subjects.

 

Lob likes to try to paint her as a villian, but the fact of the matter is she tried to end the situation in Halamshiral to the benefit of the Elves by having the bigoted noble responsible assassinated.  Sadly, it came too late because her political opponents forced her to deal with the situation as it really was, namely an armed rebellion.  Had it been human peasants instead of elven ones, the outcome would have been exactly the same.

So then why would there be conflict between Briala's goals and Celene's?

[Hellion Rex]

So then why would there be conflict between Briala's goals and Celene's?

It's the concept of slow, but steady change on Celene's end versus more active and possibly violent change on Briala's side

[wcholcombe]

Because one seems to hate the other?

What is hate in the scheme of the Grand Game. I wouldn't categorize either of them actually hating each other. I could foresee Briala partnering with either Celene or Gaspard, just as I could see Celene and Gaspard coming to an agreement.

[TK514]

So then why would there be conflict between Briala's goals and Celene's?

 

 

It's the concept of slow, but steady change on Celene's end versus more active and possibly violent change on Briala's side

 

There it is.

[Xilizhra]

It's the concept of slow, but steady change on Celene's end versus more active and possibly violent change on Briala's side

Bingo. Since we already have violence with Gaspard as it is, we persuade Celene to get more active, unite her forces with Briala's, and defeat Gaspard.

[dragondreamer]

 

Furthermore, it's stressed that all spirits are dangerous, by Merrill and World of Thedas. Not Spirits and Demons, but spirits. Holding the view there are Spirits and Demons because of some cultural and religious view is different than viewing all spirits as dangerous, and Felassan's words may be indicating that the Dalish cultural and religious perspective is being dropped in favor of giving them the same views as Andrastians.

 

Considering that both Merrill and Felassan are not exactly typical Dalish, I think we should take care in accepting their views as those of Dalish in general.

[wcholcombe]

I'm sure it can vary, I simply don't see why it seems to vary into being little different than Andrastian views - to the point where the terms 'Spirits' and 'Demons' would be used, as Merrill and Anders have multiple religious debates because she doesn't share his distinctions while acknowledging that all spirits are different, and stresses that there's no such thing as a good spirit, since all spirits are dangerous; the same message that is echoed by WoT addressing that the Dalish view all spirits as dangerous, and abhor using magic that involves spirits as a consequence.

 

 

Because there are multiple discussions where it's addressed that the distinction with Spirits and Demons isn't shared?

 

Anders: Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons.

 

Merrill: Did I ask you?

 

Anders: Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations. The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor.

 

Merrill: Your "Maker" is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours.

 

Furthermore, it's stressed that all spirits are dangerous, by Merrill and World of Thedas. Not Spirits and Demons, but spirits. Holding the view there are Spirits and Demons because of some cultural and religious view is different than viewing all spirits as dangerous, and Felassan's words may be indicating that the Dalish cultural and religious perspective is being dropped in favor of giving them the same views as Andrastians.

Yes, and what Felassan said is that the Dalish view dealing with Spirits and Demons as being like dealing with a dangerous wild animal. He never says spirits are good and demons are bad.  He says dealing with demons, but that is just semantics and he is talking to an andrastian elf about a demon.  He basically says that dealing with them is like dealing with a dangerous wild animal. Nothing about that contradicts what Merrill says.

[Master Warder Z_]

How old is the Valley of the Flowers? And didn't Iorveth say it was a "dead end" of sorts, due to the birthrate? Granted, I can't remember if that's due to elven biology in The Witcher.

 

It was founded after the initial invasion of Nilfgaard was repulsed at Brenna, So maybe twenty or so years since its founding by the time of Witcher 3?

 

And Elves only produce a handful of children their entire lives they are lucky so the birthrate is due to the scarcity of elves, their low birth rate and etc, not in so far as the Nation it self.

[Master Warder Z_]

How old is the Valley of the Flowers? And didn't Iorveth say it was a "dead end" of sorts, due to the birthrate? Granted, I can't remember if that's due to elven biology in The Witcher.

 

It was founded after the initial invasion of Nilfgaard was repulsed at Brenna, So maybe twenty or so years since its founding by the time of Witcher 3?

 

And Elves only produce a handful of children their entire lives they are lucky so the birthrate is due to the scarcity of elves, their low birth rate and etc, not in so far as the Nation it self.

[Shadow Fox]

What is hate in the scheme of the Grand Game. I wouldn't categorize either of them actually hating each other. I could foresee Briala partnering with either Celene or Gaspard, just as I could see Celene and Gaspard coming to an agreement.

Just pointing out it could ultimately come down to an Alistair/Loghain situation.

[wcholcombe]

Considering that both Merrill and Felassan are not exactly typical Dalish, I think we should take care in accepting their views as those of Dalish in general.

Well, sense Felessan is speaking in regards to the views and beliefs of the Dalish, not his own beliefs, I think what he says can be taken as accurate.

[LobselVith8]

Considering that both Merrill and Felassan are not exactly typical Dalish, I think we should take care in accepting their views as those of Dalish in general.

 

Given the emphasis made by Anders about the distinctions being tied to cultural and religious views, it made sense that the Dalish didn't share them. As Anders said, "Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons. [...] Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations. The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor."

 

It makes perfect sense that a Dalish elf wouldn't share these views. Merrill chastising Anders over thinking that there was such a thing as a good spirit, since she says all spirits are dangerous, is echoed in WoT as a viewpoint held by the Dalish.

[Master Warder Z_]

It just isn't a thread if lob doesn't quote that stupid conversation between Anders and Merrill at least twenty times.

[Xilizhra]

It just isn't a thread if lob doesn't quote that stupid conversation between Anders and Merrill at least twenty times.

 

You really need to brush up on Forum Etiquette.

 

Attack the Post, not the Poster.

Mhmm.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yes, and what Felassan said is that the Dalish view dealing with Spirits and Demons as being like dealing with a dangerous wild animal. He never says spirits are good and demons are bad.  He says dealing with demons, but that is just semantics and he is talking to an andrastian elf about a demon.  He basically says that dealing with them is like dealing with a dangerous wild animal. Nothing about that contradicts what Merrill says.

That's how I always personally saw it. Just because the Dalish see all Fade dwellers as dangerous doesn't mean they write them all off as useless. Otherwise Merrill would never have talked with Audacity.

[wcholcombe]

Just pointing out it could ultimately come down to an Alistair/Loghain situation.

Nah, none of the three of them are as petty or ruled by anger as Alistair and Loghain.  They are all three pragmatists who play the game like we breathe.  Briala probably plays it better then Celene or Gaspard btw, she isn't concerned with anything as trivial as etiquette or honor when playing the game.

Gaspard definitely is in some ways and even Celene couldn't bring herself to kill Gaspard in a way that she knew was not acceptable, while Briala has no such qualms.

[Hellion Rex]

You really need to brush up on Forum Etiquette.

 

Attack the Post, not the Poster.

Z, pot meet kettle. We all do it, so please get off your high horse.