2014 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

She tells you something like I have no choice then and she runs up the mountain if you tell her what Merrill's up to before you go. (I guess if you say nothing she assumes the worst and heads up anyway). And when you get there she tells you she allowed it to possess her so it wouldn't Merrill.

Impossible. Unless Marethari has Bugs Bunny-level burrowing skills, there's no way she could beat Hawke and Merrill up the mountain and free Audacity if they didn't tell her what was happening. There's no way that she wasn't already possessed at the beginning of Act 3.

[The Baconer]

Then merge them. Find some elves and elevate them to the nobility, to start with, preferably with some kind of dispensation in marriage issues so that they don't have to breed with human nobles.

 

What.

[TK514]

Then merge them. Find some elves and elevate them to the nobility, to start with, preferably with some kind of dispensation in marriage issues so that they don't have to breed with human nobles. Formally dissolve any legal barriers between humans and elves... assuming you can't give the elves their own nation.

 

Which would result in another Civil War.  You can't legislate acceptance, particularly not in a feudal society.  Education, exposure, and time are the only way the elves are ever going to get equal rights.  Celene is playing the long game, because it is the only successful strategy.

[LobselVith8]

Hmmm, considering what we now know of the eluvians, it might not be that far of a stretch, what Marethari was saying. If these eluvians are doorways, who is to say that it couldn't open a doorway out of the statue?

 

Audacity is bound to the statute, and has been for over a thousand years, since the war between Arlathan and the Imperium. I don't see how the Eluvian could have lead it outside of an artifact it's bound to. More importantly, how did Marethari come to this conclusion, when it's contrary to her previously established reasons for opposing Merrill's efforts? Did Audacity tell the Keeper?

[wcholcombe]

good grief ya'll are like dogs with a chew toy.  Can we not have one friggin thread that doesn't get bogged down in senseless trivial debate about Merril!?!?!?!?!?

 

I actually dislike her more because of all the meaningless debates she has caused on this forum then I actually dislike her from playing the game.

 

If we are going to talk about making deals with demons in game context, I hope we actually get a manipulative demon who can fool the PC like Ishmael does to Michel.

 

Basically "Here, give me let me go free in the deep roads and I will give you this great artifact/weapon and will never trouble you again" Then when you get back out of the deep roads you find that he has possessed your entire fortress and killed off some important NPCs that could have helped you.

 

Yeah that would be nice.

[Ryzaki]

Impossible. Unless Marethari has Bugs Bunny-level burrowing skills, there's no way she could beat Hawke and Merrill up the mountain and free Audacity if they didn't tell her what was happening. There's no way that she wasn't already possessed at the beginning of Act 3.

 

Yes because there's no such skill that Merrill can use that teleports her using the earth...that she most likely would've been taught by her keeper.

 

Wait...

 

There's also no way that Marethari would know shortcuts through Sundermount that Hawke doesn't...

 

Wait...

 

Also she's standing RIGHT at the place where you go up the mountain. You think she's blind? If she even follows the slightest bit you think she's not gonna overhear the "You're sure this is a good idea?" banter while you're climbing up the mountain if she's a wee bit nosy about why exactly are the two of you going up Sundermount 3 years after the knife incident?

 

Dramatic convention is why it's not spelled out. But it's not some impossibility.

[Hellion Rex]

She tells you something like I have no choice then and she runs up the mountain if you tell her what Merrill's up to before you go. (I guess if you say nothing she assumes the worst and heads up anyway). And when you get there she tells you she allowed it to possess her so it wouldn't Merrill.

What the hell are you talking about Ryz? You don't even see Marethari till you get to the top of the mountain.

[Xilizhra]

Which would result in another Civil War.  You can't legislate acceptance, particularly not in a feudal society.  Education, exposure, and time are the only way the elves are ever going to get equal rights.  Celene is playing the long game, because it is the only successful strategy.

And when Celene dies, who'll carry this on? Can anyone be trusted to? Celene's long game is far too long. Of course, it can't be top-down alone; we have to get both the elves themselves and those humans who sympathize with them, on the ground level, mobilized to campaign for equality. It doesn't have to be violent, but it also cannot be simply indefinitely delayed.

[Hellion Rex]

Audacity is bound to the statute, and has been for over a thousand years, since the war between Arlathan and the Imperium. I don't see how the Eluvian could have lead it outside of an artifact it's bound to. More importantly, how did Marethari come to this conclusion, when it's contrary to her previously established reasons for opposing Merrill's efforts? Did Audacity tell the Keeper?

After it had possessed her, I don't see why it would necessarily have a reason to lie to her.

[EmissaryofLies]

It's alright. She moves in mysterious ways.

[LobselVith8]

Yeah it does, since the demons only share information if they feel it would benefit them. Thus acting on that information can be considered as cooperation.

 

Which don't require making a deal or a bargain with one, as Merrill spoke with a trapped Audacity without releasing it from it's prison, and Hawke can speak with the Profane Abomination and Torpor, only to attack them afterwards.

 

Doesn't mean they didn't use spirits for other things. So far every Keeper we've met has been involved with a spirit at least once.

 

Because Zathrian engaged in blood magic, and Marethari may have fallen prey to Audacity's machinations, leading to releasing it from it's prison. That doesn't mean that Dalish typically deal with spirits, given the emphasis in WoT that the Dalish avoid schools of magic that involve spirits.

[The Elder King]

Yeah she let her love for Merrill blind her to her duties. Understandable but she shouldn't have had the job if she didn't know how to cut people loose.
 
She might've figured the clan would've tried to stop her (and I wouldn't blame them.).
 
Edit: Heh. I wonder if elven threads turning into Merrill discussions is the DA2 version of Loghain/Alistair discussions turning into the opposite.

The problem is that it isn't the first case that the love of a Keeper for their relatives put their clan in danger. It'a two in two games so far (and technically Velanna was cast out from her clan also because her actions, based on the desire of finding/get revenge for her sister, put her clan in danger). I hope they change the pattern in DAI.

[Xilizhra]

Yes because there's no such skill that Merrill can use that teleports her using the earth...

 

Wait...

 

There's also no way that Marethari would know shortcuts through sundermount that hawke doesn't...

 

Wait...

Using the former is like saying that any elemental mage could throw a Chantry-sized fireball; the magnitude is wholly different, and earth-teleportation for distances so huge would sure have been brought up by now had it actually existed.

 

As for the second, I'm fairly sure there's only one path up Sundermount, and it's Merrill's knowledge that Marethari would have to outdo, not Hawke's. And even that still doesn't explain why Marethari would corner Merrill in Pride's End if she was allegedly in control of her own body.

[Ryzaki]

What the hell are you talking about Ryz? You don't even see Marethari till you get to the top of the mountain.

 

? You can tell her what Merrill's doing before you even head up. She's standing where she usually does.

 

DO I really need to check? >_> Goddamnit

[LobselVith8]

After it had possessed her, I don't see why it would necessarily have a reason to lie to her.

 

Marethari let it free in the first place because she thought Audacity would use the Eluvian to free itself, and this was after two previous Acts of opposing Merrill's efforts for entirely different reasons. If Audacity told this to Marethari, I don't see why it should be trusted as a source of accuracy.

[TK514]

And when Celene dies, who'll carry this on? Can anyone be trusted to? Celene's long game is far too long. Of course, it can't be top-down alone; we have to get both the elves themselves and those humans who sympathize with them, on the ground level, mobilized to campaign for equality. It doesn't have to be violent, but it also cannot be simply indefinitely delayed.

 

One has to assume Celene is smart enough to groom a successor, since it is highly unlikely she'll have children given the rather absurdly telegraphed hole in her armor.  Probably one of the many young nobles she had educated to a pro-elf mindset at the university.  She's basically educating the entire next generation of nobility to look more favorably on elves, and it was working.

[Hellion Rex]

? You can tell her what Merrill's doing before you even head up. She's standing where she usually does.

 

DO I really need to check? >_> Goddamnit

Dammit, she is there. Never mind. Doesn't mean she can't do the earth burrowing thing like Velanna and Merrill can though.

[Ryzaki]

The problem is that it isn't the first case that the love of a Keeper for their relatives put their clan in danger. It'a two in two games so far (and technically Velanna was cast out from her clan also because her actions, based on the desire of finding/get revenge for her sister, put her clan in danger). I hope they change the pattern in DAI.

 

True I'm just saying I can understand it. Tis all. (And BW loves reusing tropes).

 

 

Using the former is like saying that any elemental mage could throw a Chantry-sized fireball; the magnitude is wholly different, and earth-teleportation for distances so huge would sure have been brought up by now had it actually existed.

 

As for the second, I'm fairly sure there's only one path up Sundermount, and it's Merrill's knowledge that Marethari would have to outdo, not Hawke's. And even that still doesn't explain why Marethari would corner Merrill in Pride's End if she was allegedly in control of her own body.

 

*sigh* So Merrill's skill is there for gameplay reasons only you're saying? Even then there's still shortcuts. (Oh wait I forgot about Velanna)...

 

Merrill learns magic from Marethari. It lends to reason their skills would be similar (save obviously the bloodmagic).

 

Wrong. Merrill flat out says one of the paths has been blocked by a landslide click on it during your first trip up sundermount (the shortcut in fact) I'm pretty sure in six years Marethari could've had that cleared out (even if LOL maps didn't show it).

 

 

Dammit, she is there. Never mind. Doesn't mean she can't do the earth burrowing thing like Velanna and Merrill can though.

But...why wouldn't she?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Which don't require making a deal or a bargain with one, as Merrill spoke with a trapped Audacity without releasing it from it's prison, and Hawke can speak with the Profane Abomination and Torpor, only to attack them afterwards.

 

 

Because Zathrian engaged in blood magic, and Marethari may have fallen prey to Audacity's machinations, leading to releasing it from it's prison. That doesn't mean that Dalish typically deal with spirits, given the emphasis in WoT that the Dalish avoid schools of magic that involve spirits.

Yeah it's not like teaching her blood magic wasn't part of some long term plan he had to get himself released. And Profane and Torpor wanted Hawke to get rid of something for them, thus gave information on their foe.

 

Hey, we are currently 3 for 3 of Keepers dealing with spirits, so you can't blame me for seeing it as a possibly more common occurrence than you think it is. 

[LobselVith8]

Dammit, she is there. Never mind. Doesn't mean she can't do the earth burrowing thing like Velanna and Merrill can though.

 

Except Marethari is only privy to what Merrill plans to do if Hawke informs her about it, and Merrill suspects that Audacity is missing because her attempts to communicate with it aren't working, which is why she asks for the Champion to accompany her in the first place.

[EmperorSahlertz]

What the hell are you talking about Ryz? You don't even see Marethari till you get to the top of the mountain.

You can talk to her before heading up the mountain, at which point Marethari deduces the reason you and Merrill has arrived, and she runs ahead. If you do not talk to her, we can only assume she took a shortcut, despite what the Merrill lovers wants to believe.

[Xilizhra]

One has to assume Celene is smart enough to groom a successor, since it is highly unlikely she'll have children given the rather absurdly telegraphed hole in her armor.  Probably one of the many young nobles she had educated to a pro-elf mindset at the university.  She's basically educating the entire next generation of nobility to look more favorably on elves, and it was working.

One cannot assume that such a plan would work, especially not now that so much blood is being shed. Any of hope of the long game's reliability, which was faint as hell to begin with, has evaporated.

 

 

*sigh* So Merrill's skill is there for gameplay reasons only you're saying? Even then there's still shortcuts.

 

Wrong. Merrill flat out says one of the paths has been blocked by a landslide (the shortcut in fact) I'm pretty sure in six years Marethari could've had that cleared out (even if LOL maps didn't show it).

Merrill's skill is short-ranged. And the maps do change; in fact, if you go up to the top of Sundermount in Act 2, you'll see that the blue barrier is gone and replaced by an overturned wagon (which, by the way, strongly implies that someone had been there three years before she was allegedly possessed...), so if Bioware had wanted to show that the landslide had been removed, they'd have shown it.

[AresKeith]

Dammit, she is there. Never mind. Doesn't mean she can't do the earth burrowing thing like Velanna and Merrill can though.

 

Well being the Keeper you would assume she could

[Hellion Rex]

I'm just gonna stop, cause I have lost all track of what the hell we are trying to debate.

[Xilizhra]

Well being the Keeper you would assume she could

It's short-ranged.