2014 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Let's hope not considering how pretty much every single one of those boons ends up failing. 

 

I'm not so sure about that. The royal boons can matter if they are properly addressed in Inquisition, since Ferelden is one of the locations. The armies can be working alongside the dwarven forces in regaining the lost thaigs, the elves in Denerim can have representation and a better future because of their Bann, the Dalish can have the Hinterlands, or the mages might be heading to Ferelden for sanctuary because the Crown publicly advocated mage autonomy in the wake of the Fifth Blight. It's not impossible for the boons to matter.

 

As for the civil war in Orlais, I can imagine that an elven Inquisitor would be hesitant about helping the Orlesian Empire gain back it's footing. It's why I'm hoping there's another option to Celene or Gaspard.

 

Well, maybe they discovered the ancient elves used spirits. Since they are all about being like them, they followed suit. 

 

Then why does WoT say otherwise?

[wcholcombe]

This is what they all ultimately devolve into unfortunately my friend. 

Not really. I have been around long enough to be in some great thread that the very posters on this current strain of idiocy have participated in quite well.  Sadly Merril is a polarizing topic from a really poorly developed and written quest section that causes typically intelligent posters to devolve into rude little brats about why their particular OPINION of one character is the right one and the people who argue with them are wrong.

 

And that goes for most of ya'll that routinely get drawn into this purtrid debate about her.  Those of you who like her and those of you who don't. 

 

I personally don't see a point in debating it as it is just an opinion of whether you like the character or not, not an actual debate.

[Ryzaki]

You're still giving a spell range and power that it was never shown to have. You can look down on the mountain from a fair height and see Marethari still just standing there. And then there's the assumption that releasing Audacity would have been a swift matter... and then there's the fact that a possessed Marethari could have just jumped off the mountain and ended the whole problem instead of preparing an ambush for Hawke and Merrill in the demon's own den. Even if the fall wouldn't instantly kill the demon, she could leave the clan a warning about where she'd be jumping towards, more or less, and telling them to kill any injured demons that happened to be there.

 

And you don't explore? Also, there's no reason in-universe for the barrier to be down at all if you're thinking that that one rogue mage was responsible.

 

Are you seriously trying to argue everything Hawke sees (or rather the player in game) is how it is? Nothing ever changed in Kirkwall then? Same shops, same stances, same outfits, same low res elves. Just...seriously? Also it's hardly an ambush she tells you she's possessed and to kill her. She knows Hawke and Merrill are capable of doing such (or is it only okay for Merrill to have faith in Hawke's ability to stop her should the worse happen?). Also if the fall doesn't kill the demon she'll have killed herself for nothing. Not to mention she clearly could've had a case of Cannot Self Terminate once possessed.

 

In a game as ugly looking and railroaded as DA2? No. There's no reason and no reward for doing so. Depends on who placed the barrier and why honestly. I don't recall that much. But I highly doubt Marethari would've been unable to put up another barrier even if she was the one visiting Audacity. Her bringing up a cart to push it infront of the entrance doesn't make any more sense.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I'm not so sure about that. The royal boons can matter if they are properly addressed in Inquisition, since Ferelden is one of the locations. The armies can be working alongside the dwarven forces in regaining the lost thaigs, the elves in Denerim can have representation and a better future because of their Bann, the Dalish can have the Hinterlands, or the mages might be heading to Ferelden for sanctuary because the Crown publicly advocated mage autonomy in the wake of the Fifth Blight. It's not impossible for the boons to matter.

 

As for the civil war in Orlais, I can imagine that an elven Inquisitor would be hesitant about helping the Orlesian Empire gain back it's footing. It's why I'm hoping there's another option to Celene or Gaspard.

 

 

Then why does WoT say otherwise?

Why wouldn't all the Dalish be going to the Hinterlands then? Plus we only know we are going to Western Ferelden so Denerim may not even show up. 

 

As for your question, because WoT was published first and afterwords they decided to create more lore about the ancient elves? 

[wcholcombe]

I'm not so sure about that. The royal boons can matter if they are properly addressed in Inquisition, since Ferelden is one of the locations. The armies can be working alongside the dwarven forces in regaining the lost thaigs, the elves in Denerim can have representation and a better future because of their Bann, the Dalish can have the Hinterlands, or the mages might be heading to Ferelden for sanctuary because the Crown publicly advocated mage autonomy in the wake of the Fifth Blight. It's not impossible for the boons to matter.

 

As for the civil war in Orlais, I can imagine that an elven Inquisitor would be hesitant about helping the Orlesian Empire gain back it's footing. It's why I'm hoping there's another option to Celene or Gaspard.

 

 

Then why does WoT say otherwise?

Technically it says they "Do not use any magic involving spirits"  That technically is not the same as saying they don't summon spirits.  That is saying the dalish don't have things such as spirit healers or other forms of magic, such as the seers, actually involving spirits in the magic itself.

[Xilizhra]

Are you seriously trying to argue everything Hawke sees is how it is? Nothing ever changed in Kirkwall then? Same shops, same stances, same outfits, same low res elves. Just...seriously? Also it's hardly an ambush she tells you she's possessed and to kill her. She knows Hawke and Merrill are capable of doing such (or is it only okay for Merrill to have faith in Hawke's ability to stop her should the worse happen?). Also if the fall doesn't kill the demon she'll have killed herself for nothing. Not to mention she clearly could've had a case of Cannot Self Terminate once possessed.

 

In a game as ugly looking and railroaded as DA2? No. There's no reason and no reward for doing so. Depends on who placed the barrier and why honestly. I don't recall that much. But I highly doubt Marethari would've been unable to put up another barrier even if she was the one visiting Audacity. Her bringing up a cart to push it infront of the entrance doesn't make any more sense.

I'll argue that the way Hawke sees things is how it is while she's on the same screen. Which the entirety of Sundermount aside from the caves is. And she has you cornered and isolated in a cave when the whole clan would be willing to kill her... and, funnily enough, set up in such a way that the rest of the clan would be liable to attack Merrill even if she did win. And you're just slapping more and more elements onto demon possession that may not even happen... of course, we've never seen an abomination do anything that Marethari did while they could be proven to have control of their own mind. Connor only came back to consciousness for very brief flashes, and then not really enough to affect the actions of the demon possessing him. In short, there's no solid evidence that Marethari was in control of herself at any point in Act 3, and a fair bit of evidence to suggest otherwise.

[Shadow Fox]

Not really. I have been around long enough to be in some great thread that the very posters on this current strain of idiocy have participated in quite well.  Sadly Merril is a polarizing topic from a really poorly developed and written quest section that causes typically intelligent posters to devolve into rude little brats about why their particular OPINION of one character is the right one and the people who argue with them are wrong.

 

And that goes for most of ya'll that routinely get drawn into this purtrid debate about her.  Those of you who like her and those of you who don't. 

 

I personally don't see a point in debating it as it is just an opinion of whether you like the character or not, not an actual debate.

*shrugs* I've seen many of those threads devolve into pointless arguing of opinions and mud slinging just like the Merrill debates.

[LobselVith8]

Why wouldn't all the Dalish be going to the Hinterlands then? Plus we only know we are going to Western Ferelden so Denerim may not even show up. 

 

Some may prefer being nomadic, which was mentioned in one of the written entries. My point, however, was that the impact of the boons don't have to be tossed aside. It's hard to feel like our choices matter when they are discarded, especially when they don't have to be.

 

As for your question, because WoT was published first and afterwords they decided to create more lore about the ancient elves? 

 

Actually, Merrill comments on no one being sure which side conjured Audacity (whether it was the Arlathan elves or the Tevinter mages), so the possibility was there since before WoT was published.

[Ryzaki]

I'll argue that the way Hawke sees things is how it is while she's on the same screen. Which the entirety of Sundermount aside from the caves is. And she has you cornered and isolated in a cave when the whole clan would be willing to kill her... and, funnily enough, set up in such a way that the rest of the clan would be liable to attack Merrill even if she did win. And you're just slapping more and more elements onto demon possession that may not even happen... of course, we've never seen an abomination do anything that Marethari did while they could be proven to have control of their own mind. Connor only came back to consciousness for very brief flashes, and then not really enough to affect the actions of the demon possessing him. In short, there's no solid evidence that Marethari was in control of herself at any point in Act 3, and a fair bit of evidence to suggest otherwise.

 

If she wanted to turn the clan against Hawke and Merrill before even going up the mountain she could've. It's not like they're gonna believe those two over their keeper. Also yes cornered and isolated and flat out tells you she's possessed and the only way to kill the demon is to completely kill her what a cunning plot As for the rest of the clan attacking Merrill true are you seriously suggesting the demon is stupid enough to isolate it itself with two well trained fighters and for what? It already has a host. Merrill isn't that good if he really needs a superior mage there's ways to get them without risking his newfound freedom. He has a foothold in the mortal realm there's no reason for him not to have run away a long time ago if Marethari's been possessed before Hawke even got there.

 

What abomination have you seen kill itself? I haven't seen a one.

 

Also...you do realize that undermines your whole "She was possessed the whole time" point right? Also "in control of her own mind for flashes". That's EXACTLY what happened in the cave. She told you to kill her and not to trust anything she says afterwards. Afterwards the demon is control and all smiles and going "let's leave Merrill." Hawke reminds Merrill of what Marethari said, she stabs her, Marethari comes back to her senses while dying. What exactly about that is inconsistent with what we've seen from people being possessed? What solid evidence do you have that Marethari wasn't in control of her own mind?

[LobselVith8]

Technically it says they "Do not use any magic involving spirits"  That technically is not the same as saying they don't summon spirits.  That is saying the dalish don't have things such as spirit healers or other forms of magic, such as the seers, actually involving spirits in the magic itself.

 

Wouldn't summoning a spirit be an example of magic that involves a spirit? Given the view of spirits as dangerous, I don't see why summoning one would be copacetic.

[wcholcombe]

Wouldn't summoning a spirit be an example of magic that involves a spirit? Given the view of spirits as dangerous, I don't see why summoning one would be copacetic.

Summoning a demon or spirit doesn't involve the spirit in the actual magic.  You are more casting the spell on the spirit in question, not involving the spirit in the actual spell.  Its technicalities and semantics to a degree I will grant you, but you asked me how the info in ME could jive with WoT.  That is what I arrived at. As I said difference of interpretation.

 

Also, Ishmael himself refers to the binding stones as old "Elven Magic" so at the very least the elves of Arlathan trafficed with spirits we could surmise, the dalish seek to recover the lost knowledge and magic of Arlathan.

[Ryzaki]

Summoning a demon or spirit doesn't involve the spirit in the actual magic.  You are more casting the spell on the spirit in question, not involving the spirit in the actual spell.  Its technicalities and semantics to a degree I will grant you, but you asked me how the info in ME could jive with WoT.  That is what I arrived at. As I said difference of interpretation.

 

Also, Ishmael himself refers to the binding stones as old "Elven Magic" so at the very least the elves of Arlathan trafficed with spirits we could surmise, the dalish seek to recover the lost knowledge and magic of Arlathan.

 

What Zatharin did would've been forbidden either way though no? He didn't just summon the Lady of the Forest's spirit he bound it to a wolf using his blood.

[Xilizhra]

If she wanted to turn the clan against Hawke and Merrill before even going up the mountain she could've. It's not like they're gonna believe those two over their keeper. Also yes cornered and isolated and flat out tells you she's possessed and the only way to kill the demon is to completely kill her what a cunning plot As for the rest of the clan attacking Merrill true are you seriously suggesting the demon is stupid enough to isolate it itself with two well trained fighters and for what? It already has a host. Merrill isn't that good if he really needs a superior mage there's ways to get them without risking his newfound freedom. He has a foothold in the mortal realm there's no reason for him not to have run away a long time ago if Marethari's been possessed before Hawke even got there.

 

What abomination have you seen kill itself? I haven't seen a one.

 

Also...you do realize that undermines your whole "She was possessed the whole time" point right? Also "in control of her own mind for flashes". That's EXACTLY what happened in the cave. She told you to kill her and not to trust anything she says afterwards. Afterwards the demon is control and all smiles and going "let's leave Merrill." Hawke reminds Merrill of what Marethari said, she stabs her, Marethari comes back to her senses while dying. What exactly about that is inconsistent with what we've seen from people being possessed? What solid evidence do you have that Marethari wasn't in control of her own mind?

I think the demon would have wanted to kill Merrill to either remove a personal loose end, or just out of a desire for revenge. Possibly drunk on its own pride.

 

And why do you believe that she was in control of herself in the cave? She definitely doesn't say to not trust anything she says afterward; I'm fairly sure the demon just wanted to grind Merrill into further despair, a motive clearly supported by all the ghosts it conjures. And what's inconsistent is an abomination revealing a vulnerability that the demon wouldn't want revealed.

 

As for my evidence, everything that I've been mentioning prior.

 

But... in the end, it's too ambiguous for proof to be attached either way, so I'll stop for the time being.

[Ryzaki]

So basically the demon's going to give up a perfectly serviceable host cause he's mad at Merrill despite her actions...giving him a perfectly serviceable host? Also loose end? She can't do anything to him. She wouldn't even know where he was if he had just left. Revenge for what? 

 

"You have to kill me" isn't mincing words. But if you really want me to transcribe that entire scene I'll replay it.

 

That's...not evidence.

[wcholcombe]

What Zatharin did would've been forbidden either way though no? He didn't just summon the Lady of the Forest's spirit he bound it to a wolf using his blood.

Again, he cast a spell on the lady of the forest binding her to the wolf.  He didn't use the lady of the forest to cast the spell, she was actually the target of the spell. It is a more narrow line I am toeing here, but Zatharians actions don't jive with the lore anyway.

[LobselVith8]

Summoning a demon or spirit doesn't involve the spirit in the actual magic.  You are more casting the spell on the spirit in question, not involving the spirit in the actual spell.  Its technicalities and semantics to a degree I will grant you, but you asked me how the info in ME could jive with WoT.  That is what I arrived at. As I said difference of interpretation.

 

I suppose that's how that specific clan may have justified the act. I'm also hoping the elven Inquisitor's clan is nothing like them; I'd really like some three-dimensional characters among the Dalish clan (and the other clans as well, if the protagonist meets them). The clan in TME veered a bit close to one-dimensional caricature territory for my tastes.

 

Also, Ishmael himself refers to the binding stones as old "Elven Magic" so at the very least the elves of Arlathan trafficed with spirits we could surmise, the dalish seek to recover the lost knowledge and magic of Arlathan.

 

As I said, even Merrill points out that nobody is certain which side summoned Audacity, so it wasn't out of the realm of possibility for the Dalish that their ancestors may have summoned spirits.

[Ryzaki]

Again, he cast a spell on the lady of the forest binding her to the wolf.  He didn't use the lady of the forest to cast the spell, she was actually the target of the spell. It is a more narrow line I am toeing here, but Zatharians actions don't jive with the lore anyway.

 

ah.

 

I had the impression she wasn't naturally a thinking being. He made her from the forest, forced her into the wolf with blood gave her consciousness and that made the curse but that always confused me anyway XD

[Allan Schumacher]

Passively aggressively talking about other forum posters and how you dislike other forum posters and so forth, while publicly sharing the same forum space is also not acceptable.

 

Insisting on bringing old baggage from previous interactions into other threads blurs the lines between "attacking the post, not the poster" towards the latter.  I'd encourage you to not that.

 

If you think that someone is breaking forum rules, report the post with a write up as to why you think it's a problem.

 

If a poster is coming across as crass and antagonizing, and overall frustrating... ignore the poster.  Go to "Manage Ignore prefs" in your control panel," and spare yourself the misfortune of having to experience antagonizing posts that do nothing more than frustrate you.  The incorrect course of action is to assume you have to respond lest that poster have their views unchallenged and therefore able to spread whatever misinformation you think exists within said posts.

 

 

This thread is painfully close to being closed if this sort of stuff comes up much more.

[EmissaryofLies]

No one means any harm. It's all in good fun. Most of the 'bickering' is between posters who've interacted with one another for years now. Myself not included. 

 

Agreed with your general advice, but closing the thread is unnecessary.

 

Back on topic, folks. 

[Master Warder Z_]

What is this topic you speak of?

 

[EmissaryofLies]

ah.

 

I had the impression she wasn't naturally a thinking being. He made her from the forest, forced her into the wolf with blood gave her consciousness and that made the curse but that always confused me anyway XD

 

Yes, that particular bit was rather convoluted to me. Though it has interesting implications. 

 

@Warder

 

Quote something you find interesting if you'd like. Talk about it, be about it. Become an even better person.

 

But I must go, my people need me. 

[Ryzaki]

Yes, that particular bit was rather convoluted to me. Though it has interesting implications. 

 

Yeah it's why I thought she referred to him as her Maker. He gave her life where she hadn't had any before.

 

The other spirits seem to be able to feel something. But it felt to me she hadn't been the same.

[Master Warder Z_]

If we are discussing the Lady, I'd always assumed that she was a Natural Spirit, A Dryad or this universe's equivalent anyway.

 

Forced into the Wolf vessel via Zatherian's meddlesome ritual, So I'd assume she would be aware as any spirit of her existence, cognition is a murky subject in DA though.

[LobselVith8]

Yes, that particular bit was rather convoluted to me. Though it has interesting implications.

The information is spread around a bit. The Grand Oak references the disappearance of the spirit of the Forest. I wonder if there are other areas with their own spirits.

[AresKeith]

If we are discussing the Lady, I'd always assumed that she was a Natural Spirit, A Dryad or this universe's equivalent anyway.

 

Forced into the Wolf vessel via Zatherian's meddlesome ritual, So I'd assume she would be aware as any spirit of her existence, cognition is a murky subject in DA though.

 

I wonder if we'll see any werewolves in the Dales