53 réponses à ce sujet

[DarthGizka]

In another thread I remarked that Alistair would inevitably lose if he had to fight Loghain on equal terms: lousy AI with lousy auto-levelling. That can be tested during the big brawl, where you can let AI-driven Alistair duke it out with AI-driven Loghain, after removing 50% of Loghain's HP (or counting it as a win if Alistair manages to take Loghain down to 50%). I've never seen him come close, not even with some of the guards helping and not even with the best kit.
 
Anyway, people will argue that this is can hardly be called conclusive, since their Alistair can wipe the floor with Loghain even with one hand tied behind his back. Their Alistair being just as valid as that supplied by the game designers, this cannot be ignored.
 
Hence this challenge: train and equip Alistair so that he has at least 50% chance of beating Loghain, and I will eat crow.

The rules:

• no DLC items
• no consumables (potions, grenades etc.)
• no kiting
• playing on "Hardcore"
• Warden at most level 20

Playing on "Hardcore" is necessary to eliminate a bunch of hidden player party bonusses, like attack/defence boosts and so on. The Warden must not be higher than level 20 because Loghain's levelling is broken and stops there. That means Alistair will be at most level 19 unless you do some finessing to lend him a hand. Be my guest, but no console tricks.

If there is interest I can whip up a little script that acts like a respec tome, since normal Alistair builds tend to be not the best for duelling Loghain. The script can also add some stuff like Wade's Superior Heavy, Evon's, Lifegiver, the best non-DLC swords and so on. Otherwise it could be a logistical nightmare to get all of it together, e.g. if you sold it all because you're playing with DLCs, or because you picked a different version of Wade's.

A challenge entry would comprise equipment/ability selection and the tactical approach (e.g. 'spamming War Cry and Shield Bash/Pummel'). I'll work on the maths for computing the success chance. This is necessary to eliminate fluke successes that are simply due to lucky rolls of the dice (which is why a Youtube film of Loghain getting his ass handed on a platter would not be sufficient proof that Alistair actually has a reasonably fair chance in that duel).

A quick and dirty way of respeccing without a tome might be "runscript warriorx 1", followed by "runscript addxp 112501". This sets Alistair to level 19 and messes up the level of whoever else is there, but at least you get to keep your full inventory. Loghain will be level 20 despite the Warden's higher level. Don't forget that normally Alistair will be at least level 3 before you can start tying his shoelaces for him, so you need to re-add his initial choices (stats, abilities like Righteous Strike). If anyone knows better commands, please post.
 
Stats at level 20, after activating Rally:

[Xilizhra]

Given that the in-game action isn't a literal translation of how things happen in lore, your proposal is... extremely strange, and doesn't actually prove anything.

[DarthGizka]

This is not about lore-Alistair, it is about game-Alistair who lets you fight the duel for him and then takes advantage of your success to realise his little revenge phantasy - which he would not be able to do if you were still controlling him (or your own character who would force-field him in mid-stride or knock him over), and which he would not be able to do if he had to fight the duel on his own. That's the point.

[Xilizhra]

This is not about lore-Alistair, it is about game-Alistair who lets you fight the duel for him and then takes advantage of your success to realise his little revenge phantasy - which he would not be able to do if you were still controlling him (or your own character who would force-field him in mid-stride or knock him over), and which he would not be able to do if he had to fight the duel on his own. That's the point.

So... you have a vendetta against Alistair executing Loghain if he duels Loghain, yes? But since game-Alistair isn't a person (not even a fictional character), just a character model and a set of stats, I have no idea why you have an issue with that.

[DarthGizka]

No, it's an "I hate that <insert powerful expletive> of a game designer who is responsible for this" thing. But playing around with the duel I found that it is also an interesting challenge.

 

P.S.: my posting here instead of over in Combat was by mistake. Perhaps a mod can move it.

[Xilizhra]

No, it's an "I hate that <insert powerful expletive> of a game designer who is responsible for this" thing. But playing around with the duel I found that it is also an interesting challenge.

 

P.S.: my posting here instead of over in Combat was by mistake. Perhaps a mod can move it.

And why do you hate them so vehemently?

[Shadow Fox]

Gizka I get that you hate Alistair but this is kinda ridiculous. 

[DarthGizka]

And why do you hate them so vehemently?

 
Because it's a vicious trap. The fighting bit is okay but the role-playing bit is not, because the game does not give me any possibility of preventing Loghain's death. starlitegirlx has explained it much better than I could but I can't find the post at the moment.

[theskymoves]

This is not about lore-Alistair, it is about game-Alistair who lets you fight the duel for him and then takes advantage of your success to realise his little revenge phantasy - which he would not be able to do if you were still controlling him (or your own character who would force-field him in mid-stride or knock him over), and which he would not be able to do if he had to fight the duel on his own. That's the point.

 

"This is not about lore-Alistair, it is about game-Alistair who lets you fight the duel for him and then takes advantage of your success to realise his little revenge phantasy blah blah some other stuff"

 

 

Creepy. /alistair voice

[DarthGizka]

Player-controlled Alistair can beat Loghain but wouldn't kill him unless the player wanted to. AI-controlled Alistair will kill Loghain but would inevitably lose the duel. The player gets shafted here.

[Shadow Fox]

 
Because it's a vicious trap. The fighting bit is okay but the role-playing bit is not, because the game does not give me any possibility of preventing Loghain's death. starlitegirlx has explained it much better than I could but I can't find the post at the moment.

You really didn't see Alistair killing Loghain coming despite him being very vocal in his hatred of the man?

[Shadow Fox]

Player-controlled Alistair can beat Loghain but wouldn't kill him unless the player wanted to. AI-controlled Alistair will kill Loghain but would inevitably lose the duel. The player gets shafted here.

Then don't let him duel Loghain if a character acting on his own bothers you so much and I doubt that my Alistair would considering he went toe to toe with a High Dragon that wiped out his party.

[tartan-princess]

Alistair vs Loggy: Who has the longest schlong in Thedas

[Shadow Fox]

And to add to my comment above, my human noble gets one chance to say something about her family's murder. One. I don't count telling the king because that is actually something he should know. And I don't count the conversation I have with Howe because it's appropriate and character specific in that moment as you are meeting the man who killed your family. But my character barely acknowledges the murder of her family. And it's a pretty important element I would think. Howe is rather involved in this whole thing, is he not? He's the one meeting with Loghain in these cutscenes. His murdering my family is rather tied in to the whole big picture as it's a power grab and related to Cousland talking with Orlais as I've learned. And yet while my character doesn't get to say but a word on the matter, Alistair is whining incessantly about everything from his royal blood to duncan's death and he only knew duncan for half a year. So it's all about the writer manipulating us to side with him and it fails for many people because it becomes tiresome and annoying. I love Alistair and even I am sick of hearing it, but it's not really even about him being in character half the time. It's about drilling these thoughts into us and making us feel a certain way.

Awakening you can keep bringing it up to Nathaniel and he'll at one point basically tell you to shut up about it.

[Shadow Fox]

really? I never saw that option? Where is it? Not that I would. I kind of like that my character doesn't bring it up. She's strong and moves on using it but not whining about it.

After you meet his sister if you pick "He murdered my family to get what he wanted" and he basically says "It was a war okay? People die in them."

[Shadow Fox]

I've never chose that dialogue because it seems mean. Thanks though. I was always curious what the outcomes were.

No problem and he actually gains approval for it funnily enough .

[Ryzaki]

You really didn't see Alistair killing Loghain coming despite him being very vocal in his hatred of the man?

 

Hell even in Lothering you can tell Alistair "Loghain'll get what's coming to him I promise." And Alistair agrees with that...before going on about the treaties XD