53 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

Really?

 

I LOVE Nathaniel! LOVE LOVE LOVE

 

Me too. Totally could ship a Cousland/Nate pairing.

 

Or an Orlesian/Nate pairing, oddly enough.

[sylvanaerie]

While I think Darth's letting his/her Alistair hate get the better of 'em, I did take something away from this discussion.  I want to play Awakening again, with an Orlesian, for the fun of getting Nate in my group again...

[DarthGizka]

I don't hate Alistair, I just have a low opinion of him ever since his first Landsmeet tantrum. I looked at the stuff more closely because I was p*ssed off at the game designers for the stab in the back, and then I found that the duel was just the right kind of "ought to be doable but I'll be blasted if I know how" kind of difficult that I find irresistible. I posted the challenge for two reasons.

First, it gives everyone who disagrees with my assessment of the failed templar a chance to put their money where their mouth is.

Second, preparing Alistair for the duel is an interesting challenge because the outcome is by no means certain. Alistair doesn't get all the extra attribute and ability points that the player character gets, and so you have to find the right balance. Going all out on DEX after boosting STR enough to put nice armour within reach of available shoehorns does not work here, for example. Going all out on STR maximises damage output and the chance to make abilities like Shield Pummel stick. This means that Loghain goes down faster and that he is kept from doing damage for part of the time, but it also means taking a more damage the rest of the time because of the lower defence rating. Definitely something to try but not guaranteed to work. Lowish stamina means that you cannot simply activate all sustains and start spamming abilities; you have to be selective and concentrate on the essential.

Last but not least, a discussion focussing on the combat is bound to bring up interesting info that could help people spec tanks in general and Alistair in particular.

[Mike3207]

Have Alistair activate Perfect Striking and it's all over.

[DarthGizka]

Loghain uses Perfect Striking as well, and he has twice the HP. The only save I have to play with is for a DEX-specced Alistair (wanted to take him to the do with Ser Cauthrien but ended up soloing that), meaning I can't try the pure strength/DPS approach ATM.

[Ophir147]

What is "Hardcore?" Is that Nightmare difficulty?

 

Oh ****, we're not actually supposed to be talking about the OT, are we?

 

Ok then, uh... OP you're strange and I don't much care for it! Uhh it's just pixels!

[DarthGizka]

I've looked at debug scripts like 'warriorx' and the calls it makes into sys_chargen; pretty much everything that's needed is there. I just need a bit of quiet time to go into deep hack mode and churn out a script.

 

Changing individual properties for testing purposes is not a problem, I can do that with the same script I used for displaying enemy stats as floaties. Respeccing via the console would be an absolute PITA, though. Convenient testing needs convenient helper scripts, so that it is possible to concentrate on the interesting bits and nothing else. I wouldn't sit down and write a script like that just for the duel thing; I'm going to recycle the bits and pieces for another script so that I can try any fight whenever I want, without having to hunt for a convenient save and then console the spells/abilities I want to try before I buy.

[Xetykins]

Aww picking on my templar again ? :-(

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Most duels are pretty gimped if you're a warrior, IMO (especially a sword and board warrior). I could have cried when I replayed as a rogue and won the fight with assassin spec in under 10 seconds (ditto the DA2 duel at the end of Act 2).

[Blazomancer]

Loghain's level scaling isn't actually broken. The devs designed it that way. The landsmeet chamber has a max level of 20, meaning a cap of 20 for elites.

Anyway, I think I can give this challenge a try.

Attribute: 30 modified STR, rest into DEX

Armor: Free Scout Arming Cap, Felon's Coat, Wade's Superior Drakeskin Gloves, Silverhammer's Tackmasters

Weapons: The Rose's Thorn, Champion's Shield

Runes: GM elemental runes

Accessories: Andruil's Blessing, Spellward, Key to the City, Lifegiver


Strategy: Rally, Shield Wall and Precise Striking sustained. Combat started with Perfect Striking followed with basic attacks.

[Cobra's_back]

Loghain's level scaling isn't actually broken. The devs designed it that way. The landsmeet chamber has a max level of 20, meaning a cap of 20 for elites.

Anyway, I think I can give this challenge a try.

Attribute: 30 modified STR, rest into DEX

Armor: Free Scout Arming Cap, Felon's Coat, Wade's Superior Drakeskin Gloves, Silverhammer's Tackmasters

Weapons: The Rose's Thorn, Champion's Shield

Runes: GM elemental runes

Accessories: Andruil's Blessing, Spellward, Key to the City, Lifegiver


Strategy: Rally, Shield Wall and Precise Striking sustained. Combat started with Perfect Striking followed with basic attacks.

 

Love it.

[Mike3207]

Loghain uses Perfect Striking as well, and he has twice the HP. The only save I have to play with is for a DEX-specced Alistair (wanted to take him to the do with Ser Cauthrien but ended up soloing that), meaning I can't try the pure strength/DPS approach ATM.

He doesn't use it-not on Normal-and I don't use the higher difficulties.

 

On the difficulties-I checked the wikia page and the related technical difficulty link. It's clear to me that the character has some bonuses on PC at Normal that don't exist if you play on console. If you're really looking for a fair fight, Normal is sufficient for console players and Hard for PC players.

 

On equipment, don't give your character any advantages that Loghain doesn't have. The last time I tried to get the archers to kill me in the Rescue the Queen scenario I really had to strip my character naked to get the scattershots to hurt me.

[Blazomancer]

He doesn't use it-not on Normal-and I don't use the higher difficulties.

He does use it, in fact in all difficulties. The tactical setups remain same across all difficulties. It is only the use chance modifier that changes.
 
 

On the difficulties-I checked the wikia page and the related technical difficulty link. It's clear to me that the character has some bonuses on PC at Normal that don't exist if you play on console. If you're really looking for a fair fight, Normal is sufficient for console players and Hard for PC players.

I didn't get any hint from the references you mentioned that there's no boni on the consoles. If I were allowed a guess, I'd say the console version provides higher boni than the PC verison (owing to the different control scheme perhaps?), seeing how the mana/stamina regen property provides 2x benefit in consoles. It'd be weird otherwise.
 
 

On equipment, don't give your character any advantages that Loghain doesn't have. The last time I tried to get the archers to kill me in the Rescue the Queen scenario I really had to strip my character naked to get the scattershots to hurt me.

This is strange. In the PC, the 10 scattershots can knockout a well-provided for party in a matter of seconds regardless of the difficulty setting. It must the difference in boni then!
 
Regarding the duel, Loghain does have higher amount of HP and stamina than Alistair. So without giving Alistair any advantage in some other department, it is obvious that Alistair can't win it; at least without being on an extremely lucky roll. Even if we somehow manage to make Alistair a doppelganger of Loghain, it will all boil down to the outcomes of the attacking rolls-saving throws and the check success of ability use. Can't really expect a game, the outcome of which depends on the throw of a dice, to be fair exactly, aye? We can only create an illusion.

[DarthGizka]

The roll of the dice is important, because it ensures that each battle goes differently every time you fight it, and it means that you have to build resilience into your battle plans. I think the designers did a superb job there.
 
Saving throws are indeed a problem in this duel, which is why I have earmarked Rock-Knocker and a GM rune for my next build. The DEX-focussed build that I mentioned earlier had 0% chance of resisting Loghain's War Cry and Shield Pummel, because Alistair's physical resistance was exactly the same as Loghain's strength. On the other hand, Loghain had 60% chance to resist Alistair's ministrations. Shifting points into strength and tuning gear for physical resistance should even things out considerably.
 
Anyway, I must beg for a bit of patience since I won't be able to post any interesting results before Saturday. Today I fought the toolset instead of darkspawn, and I've won a couple of important skirmishes. For example, I now can write (or generate) something like this:
 

// tpv_builds_h.nss
// 2014-04-10

#include "tpv_ability_h" 
#include "tpv_resource_h"

struct TPVConfig get_config_ (string tag)
{
   struct TPVConfig cfg; 
           
   cfg.tag = tag;

   if (tag == "Blazomancer")
   {   
      // 4 skill points and 2 ability points unspent
      cfg.build = "L20 26/59/15/12/11/13 wa14 te0 ch4 ws344 ct4";

      cfg.equip.helmet = RI_FREE_SCOUT_ARMING_CAP_;
      cfg.equip.gloves = RI_WADES_SUPERIOR_LIGHT_GLV_;
      cfg.equip.armour = RI_FELONS_COAT_;
      cfg.equip.boots  = RI_SILVERHAMMERS_TACKMASTERS_;
      
      cfg.equip.belt   = RI_ANDRUILS_BLESSING_;
      cfg.equip.amulet = RI_SPELLWARD_;
      cfg.equip.ring_1 = RI_LIFEGIVER_;
      cfg.equip.ring_2 = RI_KEY_TO_THE_CITY_;

      cfg.equip.mhand.weapon = RI_ROSES_THORN_;
      cfg.equip.mhand.rune_1 = RI_GM_FLAME_;
      cfg.equip.mhand.rune_2 = RI_GM_FLAME_;
      cfg.equip.mhand.rune_3 = RI_GM_SHOCK_; 
      
      cfg.equip.ohand.weapon = RI_CHAMPIONS_SHIELD_;
   }               
   
   return cfg;
}

Some bits of plumbing are still missing but at the end you will be able to do something like "runscript tpv cfg Blazomancer" and then pick whoever you want to have trained and equipped according to that spec. You probably shouldn't do that if you already have an implicit attack target, but who knows, it might be fun. Or tack a " ?" at the end to force the target picker to appear.

 

Respeccing and things like adding a bunch of nice kit to your inventory will also be possible (tpv add weapons all).

[Lucy Glitter]

I enjoy the fact that Alistair finally gets some backbone and just kills Loghain without asking or waiting for your decisions, but that fight, even on easy is ridiculous. Loghain as a companion isn't even that good.in battle compared to Alistair, so why the heck is he so hard to fight in the Landsmeet with Alistair?>!?!?! Puheforaeghpe

[Jeffonl1]

I enjoy the fact that Alistair finally gets some backbone and just kills Loghain without asking or waiting for your decisions, but that fight, even on easy is ridiculous. Loghain as a companion isn't even that good.in battle compared to Alistair, so why the heck is he so hard to fight in the Landsmeet with Alistair?>!?!?! Puheforaeghpe

Yeah really... It's such a one-off ..then should you accept Loghain he's not a great companion compared to Alistair. They really buffed Loghain for that duel.

[Shadow Fox]

I enjoy the fact that Alistair finally gets some backbone and just kills Loghain without asking or waiting for your decisions, but that fight, even on easy is ridiculous. Loghain as a companion isn't even that good.in battle compared to Alistair, so why the heck is he so hard to fight in the Landsmeet with Alistair?>!?!?! Puheforaeghpe

It's the Cauthrien effect of-course.

 

And yeah I like when my companions do things even if I disapprove that match their characters rather then just being puppets for me to control.

[Mike3207]

I just ran through this fight on Normal. Alistair was equipped with Dragonbone Heavy Plate and a Dragonbone long sword and shield, no accessories. I think if I had used health poultices, i would have won. I activated Perfect Striking and did enough damage to Loghain that his health was almost all gone. He rebounded and used War Cry and some other moves and finished off Alistair.

[Lucy Glitter]

^

I paused every few swings from Loghain to use a health poultice. It took me about 5 mins to get him down, this was at level 21. Granted I didn't have the best armor or weapons for him but I chose to use the Grey Warden heavy you get from Warden's Keep. It looks all kingly and I was vouching for him this playthrough.

 

Aww picking on my templar again ? :-(

 

[Blazomancer]

Two more entries.

1. The DW Reaver Talent Spammer
2. The DW Berserker Dual Striker


Attribute: 36 base DEX, rest in STR

Armor & Accessories: Same as those in my first post; may substitute Katriel's Grasp for the talent spammer.

Weapons:
1. Dual Veshialles
2. Main hand: The Rose's Thorn
Off hand: The Veshialle

Runes: Elemental/Paralyze/Hale


Strategy:

1. Precise Striking is sustained. Frightening Appearance is used before Loghain could use Warcry. Perfect Striking is activated followed with Cripple, Punisher, Dual Weapon Sweep, and Flurry. After Loghain regains his footing or if he resisted FA, Momentum and Dual Striking are activated and followed up with basic attacks. If he's still standing, the whole cycle can be repeated again as applicable.

2. Precise Striking, Momentum, Dual Striking, and Berserk sustained, followed up with basic attacks. Paralyze runes almost always guarantees a successful dual.

[Blazomancer]

Another one - the two handed Alistair. This one probably has 100% success rate.

Perfect Striking, Sunder Armor, Mighty Blow, Sunder Arms, Critical Strike, in that order, takes away more than 70% of Loghain's health in one go.

[DarthGizka]

Weapons:
1. Dual Veshialles
2. Main hand: The Rose's Thorn
Off hand: The Veshialle

Runes: Elemental/Paralyze/Hale

 

Could you commit to some specific rune choices please? I'm working flat-out as we speak but the scripting language is more powerful than I expected - it makes me jump through hoops that I didn't even think possible. If all goes well then I'll have the training/equipment bit sorted by tonight and people can try the merits of "Blazomancer#1" vs. "Blazomancer#4" vs. their own creations. It would be a great help if someone had an idea how to skip the dialogue sequence before the duel with pure script, for example by summoning Loghain in the anteroom or something.

 

One tricky bit in this duel is countering Loghain's Perfect Striking. Loghain can be knocked down because he doesn't use Shield Wall, and he can be stunned. This can get you over part of the duration of his Perfect Striking. But Loghain's high physical resistance means that you need some oomph behind Shield Bash, Shield Pummel and Frightening Appearance to make them stick often enough. With Shield Wall or Indomitable you cannot get knocked down with War Cry and Shield Bash, but you still might want good physical resistance against the stun from Shield Pummel and the debuff from War Cry. And a pure dual-wielder has no other defence against stuns and knockdowns anyway.

 

Assuming that both combatants are level 20, Loghain's chance to resist in percent is (89 + 10) minus Alistair's strength mod because of the elite rank bonus of 10. Alistair's chance to resist is equal to his physical resistance minus 50 because Loghain has 60 STR in this duel. Resistance chance is capped at 75% for both of them; Loghain gets out of stuns after 75% of normal duration (elite rank) but Alistair doesn't.

 

Loghain's damage output is comparatively low but he has roughly twice Alistair's HP, meaning you have to do more than double his damage if you want to counter his Perfect Striking by taking it on the chin. I'm curious to see how your two-hander and dual-wielder fare in that regard.