5. Varric Being Varric
"Say Hello, Bianca!"
4. Talking With Carver
"Someone has to save your arse!"
3. Justice Shows Up
"THEY WILL DIIIIEEE!!! I WILL HAVE EVERY LAST TEMPLAR FOR THESE ABUSES"
2. The Arishok's Philosophical Musings
"I cannot remain blind to this dysfunction."
1. Silly!Hawke And Badass!Hawke One Liners
"Urge to kill RISING."
"There's nothing like the smell of fresh blood!"
Okay, I have a friend who can't seem to post in this thread, who has a problem with the first post, particularly the pro-Templar ending part. Since I happen to agree with her, I'm posting for her.
Anyone who sides with Meredith is agreeing to slaughter Circle mages (...)
False!!
Your friend probably hasn't played this version of the ending (and no, watching it on YouTube doesn't count), but that statement is false. You can expressly state that you'll limit the bloodshed where possible, and spare the mages that surrender peacefully, leaving all other kills boiling down to law-enforcement (if blood-magic or demons are involved) or self-defense.
The Rite of Annulment is not always carried out in total, either. DA:O showed that, and Cullen brings that up here, too.
for the crime of one Apostate totally unrelated to them. (...)
And on top of all that, by aiding Meredith by killing even one mage, you're violating one of the biggest tenets Templars are supposed to uphold. Templars are supposed to protect mages as much as enslave them. If the people get riled up and demand mage blood, your precious Templars are supposed to stand between them and shield the Mages. That's the job whether they like it or not.
These are her words, word for word, but I also agree with them.
What Anders did was just the tip of the iceberg. Kirkwall had a real problem with mage abuses for years, and it makes a kind of sense to investigate the mages' local institute and take an accounting for any connection between them and the crimes that took place. So while I agree that any public demand for mages to be killed off alone isn't reason enough to carry out the 'Rite, the mage crime epidemic that only got worse in Kirkwall over the past few years is reason for it, and may also be one of the things that drives the public opinion in that moment (the quest's name "The Last Straw" is fitting in more ways than one).
And, as I said above, it's not truly annulment. Hawke can give these mages the option to surrender peacefully and live after the Templars have taken an accounting. There's nothing unreasonable about that, and the situation in the city has warranted drastic action for some time.
Now, there are some Templars outside Hawke's control that are going to kill whoever anyway, but then I'd just ask which option of the two of these you think will save more mages lives in the end: (1) you and your small handful of friends trying to stop an army of Templars; (2) overseeing some Templars during the 'Rite and ordering them to spare mages where appropriate.
And, most importantly, the final mission proved that there were all too many rotten goings-on in the Circle that needed to be reined in -- even if you side with the mages! It was plagued with demons, demon-worshippers, abominations, and blood-mages that all had to be put down so they wouldn't be unleashed on the people of Kirkwall. And let's not forget that First Enchanter Orsino was guilty of harboring an apostate -- one that killed Hawke's mother, among others -- and held on to the dangerous magic research data to use against the Templars (explains why he was trying to stonewall Meredith's search of the tower as seen at the very beginning of this quest). And in hiding behind them to avoid facing the music, Orsino made the death of all belligerent mages necessary. It's unfortunate that so many people on both sides had to die because they unknowingly protected/followed an unsavory leader, but that was kind of the story of the overarching mage/Templar conflict in a nutshell.
I haven't actually had any interest in doing the Templar ending, but...
According to the numbers that fellow posted, you save maybe 10 mages out of 300+. That's 3.3% of the Circle. So 96.7% of the mages being killed is fine?
Not to mention that in the Mage ending has Orsino specifically offer to surrender peacefully and offers to let the Templars imprison the mages and search the tower with his help. Meredith rejects it.
Nor did Orsino harbor an apostate -- he knew of Quentin's existence and had some contact with him, but he wasn't hiding him in the Circle or something and he certainly wasn't trying to go out of his way to protect Quentin. Was it still bad? Sure. But it was mostly a crime of staying silent.
As one who typically assumes the worst, without any foreknowledge of the option to grant leniency to those who surrender, I must assume that when Meredith calls for the execution of every mage in Kirkwall, that means they will all be killed no matter what they do or say or how much they beg for mercy. I have absolutely no reason to believe that Meredith would be willing to grant anyone a reprieve at that point, so I act accordingly. Even when the follow-up dialogue is presented, all Meredith does is try to push this duty of the Champion stuff, which is not something that would appeal to me. Of course, my rogue ends up with Bethany living in the Circle, which pretty much gave me no choice, from that perspective.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I just think we're limited in roleplaying rationale to side with the Templars. Considering our upbringing and family. It's different with DAO.
DA:O benefits from having an abundance (perhaps overabundance) of optimal outcomes. You can annul the Circle, but this clearly the inferior choice in terms of casualties. Most of its major decisions are like this.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I'm not concerned about numbers or optimal outcomes exactly. Just whatever has narrative strength or is consistent with a character concept. Sometimes things can make sense, even if they're horrible. It's a little harder with Hawke (to me anyways).
These were the most impactful, not necessarily the ones I chose in my canon run.
I haven't actually had any interest in doing the Templar ending, but...
According to the numbers that fellow posted, you save maybe 10 mages out of 300+. That's 3.3% of the Circle. So 96.7% of the mages being killed is fine?
Not sure where his friend pulled that number, or if she was just throwing one out, but there are no solid figures on it either way.
Again, it's a sad end for many mages, but it would be an even worse end if any of those demons, abominations, or blood-mages within the Circle managed to get out. In that event, many would be killed (Meredith's abomination sister killed 70+ before she was put down, so the death toll could easily climb to a number higher than the total population of the Circle), and once it is revealed where they came from, the Rite of Annulment would not be a question but a forgone conclusion.
Not to mention that in the Mage ending has Orsino specifically offer to surrender peacefully and offers to let the Templars imprison the mages and search the tower with his help. Meredith rejects it.
Enter Hawke & Co, who join the conflict voluntarily and are acting as an independent/neutral third-party. Meredith's orders need not apply.
Nor did Orsino harbor an apostate -- he knew of Quentin's existence and had some contact with him, but he wasn't hiding him in the Circle or something and he certainly wasn't trying to go out of his way to protect Quentin. Was it still bad? Sure. But it was mostly a crime of staying silent.
Wrong choice of words. Orsino was using Circle resources to let an evil mage carry out magic abuses in exchange for blood-magic research data, no doubt to be used against the Templars when the time came, which explains why he routinely blocked the Templars from doing their job.
And "staying silent" on an apostate mage (maleficar, at that) is no small crime, given the damage they can bring about.
Well, you can rest assured that none of my Hawkes would ever agree to annul the Circle for the actions of one Apostate. Killing even one innocent mage for that is too many.
You can choose this option all you want if you want people bowing down to you like you're some kind of god, but I will not.
And where do you get off talking about mages abuses? What about Templar abuses? They were illegally tranquiling mages, raping mages, beating them, you name it, they did it.
It's no wonder they rebelled.
And just for the record? I support Anders blowing up the Chantry, with Elthina inside it. I'm just disappointed he couldn't trust me enough to tell Hawke what he was planning.
Not sure where his friend pulled that number, or if she was just throwing one out, but there are no solid figures on it either way.
Again, it's a sad end for many mages, but it would be an even worse end if any of those demons, abominations, or blood-mages within the Circle managed to get out. In that event, many would be killed (Meredith's abomination sister killed 70+ before she was put down, so the death toll could easily climb to a number higher than the total population of the Circle), and once it is revealed where they came from, the Rite of Annulment would not be a question but a forgone conclusion.
http://forum.bioware...56-the-gallows/
That is where she got her numbers. I don't know which codex entry says that, but with hundreds of mages in the circle I will not annul most of them for the actions of some of them.
Her quote:
Everything else aside, when you make the choice to support Meredith, you are agreeing to slaughter indescriminately for the crimes of a man standing right in front of you.
I love the banter between Hawke, Varric, Isabela and Tallis during MotA. I only recently learned of the one bit with Isabela about Gamlen, which I hate, but I've never had it occur myself, though I think holding off on the quest until Act 3 might account for this.
It's a bit corny, but I rather like the moment between Hawke and her memory of Leandra if you do Legacy after she dies.
*snip*
It's a bit corny, but I rather like the moment between Hawke and her memory of Leandra if you do Legacy after she dies.
I thought it a nice touch. And anyone who says "my Hawke wouldn't do that" can blame Varric.
http://forum.bioware...56-the-gallows/
That is where she got her numbers. I don't know which codex entry says that, but with hundreds of mages in the circle I will not annul most of them for the actions of some of them.
Actually I was referring to the "10 mages" saved number, not the Circle population.
Her quote:
Let's see. Meredith was trying to invade the mages privacy by searching their quarters. Orsino (who did have something to hide, I'm not denying that) objected and wanted to go see Elthina about it. Meredith was obstructing his right to take it to both their superior-IE the Grand Cleric. That's how it started. There was no mention of any Rite of Annulment in the beginning.
At a time when Kirkwall was having an epidemic of mage corruption -- which had only gotten worse over the years -- is searching the mages' quarters in hopes of rooting out further evil really too much to ask? Safety and liberty are opposing values, and both can cause problems when they're taken too far. In this case, Orsino was preventing the Templars from doing their job by appealing to the mages' right to privacy. It's easy to sympathize with, but in a time of crisis, civil liberties sometimes have to be suspended until the authorities have stabilized the situation.
And yes, evil has been linked to the Circle already: the Revolutionists, and the mages/Templars following Thrask (manipulated by Grace).
THEN Anders, an apostate with no connection to the Circle, blows up the Chantry. That's when Meredith decided on the rite of annulment. She wanted to slaughter every single mage for that. Not the suspected blood magic going on in the Circle. That's what Hawke decided to support in that instant. Slaughtering Circle Mages for what Anders did. Indescriminately killing everyone for the actions of one outsider.
Everything else aside, when you make the choice to support Meredith, you are agreeing to slaughter indescriminately for the crimes of a man standing right in front of you.
Later at the entrance to the Gallows, Orsino actually backs down and will let Meredith search the mages quarters. He even offered to help her. That can be taken as meaning that he'll accept the punishment for blood magic. As will the true blood mages. But the rest of the mages-the innocent ones would be spared.
She denies that. She actually says that the people of Kirkwall will demand blood and she's going to see they get it. Which is a direct violation of Templar rules. A Templars is supposed to protect the mages from unreasoning mundane violence.
Meredith just wants to kill all mages at this point, innocent or not. And that is exactly what Hawke is agreeing to by siding with her. Even if you personally spare any mages you come across, you cannot be everywhere at once ensuring every single Templar shows the same mercy as you do. There are hundreds of Templars and hundreds of mages. Its an army fighting each other. A fight that could have been avoided.
Unfortunately, Meredith's paranoia stands correct here. After "Best Served Cold," Hawke and Orsino both know that there is blood-mage and demon influence within the Circle, by virtue of Grace, who was an abomination. This alone is valid grounds for the Right of Annulment. As an abomination (of Pride, no less), Grace may have: (1) summoned demons; (2) turned other Circle mages into abominations (ala Uldred); (3) taught other mages blood-magic (which we know she did at least once: Alain);
Worse yet, there's no way to tell if mages have been practicing the forbidden school, hence the Templars can execute all of them in this clear emergency situation. And, with the Grand Cleric dead, the Knight Commander was well within her rights to make that decision. Now, I'll agree that Orsino's offer for compromise was fair, and Meredith was being rather needlessly harsh in rejecting it. However, the Right is still legally in-bounds here: there was corruption within the Circle, and Meredith had the authority to invoke it once the Grand Cleric was slain.
Now, the next part I've said already. I'll repeat this only once more: ...
The Right of Annulment is not always carried out in totality. Sometimes mages are spared if/when they surrender peacefully, as witnessed in Fereldan's Circle, where the situation was relatively more severe than here. Cullen brings that up. And while I may not control every Templar in the process of the 'Rite, I can lead my own group away from further slaughter where it makes sense to do so. It's not like Hawke, in siding with the mages, can stand between every mage and Templar in the gallows either. So I'm not convinced Hawke really saves more innocents in the alternative scenario, nor can he/she be sure that the Templar reinforcements that come in restore order will not have them killed, imprisoned, or made tranquil, especially given the Divine's concerns over the situation in Kirkwall ... but that's just me.
Which leads me to...
And where do you get off talking about mages abuses? What about Templar abuses? They were illegally tranquiling mages, raping mages, beating them, you name it, they did it.
All of which was wrong, no question.
Thing is, I can't let sympathy for the mages get in the way of facing the facts of the situation at hand. You say that even one innocent mage's death is too many for you, but how many innocents will suffer -- mage or otherwise -- if the Templars fail to contain and eliminate all the Circle's internal threats (demons, abominations, blood-mages) during the events of The Last Straw? All of those things leave behind staggering body counts, sometimes they can even destroy entire cities (see: Guerrin, Connor). Siding with the Templars ensure those threats end here. Siding with the mages does not.
And, again, it's not like the pro-mage ending offers any better solution. After it's all said-and-done, Templar reinforcements will come in and restore the Circle anyway. That's not to say Meredith's defacto, police-state rule of Kirkwall is not another very real problem. It will be dealt with, and through means much less crude than The Anders Solution. However, that's for another time. Come "The Last Straw," Meredith is not the greatest danger to the city. "Magic allows abuses beyond the scope of mortals."
Well, you can rest assured that none of my Hawkes would ever agree to annul the Circle for the actions of one Apostate.
Oh, good! I was so worried about that. 
Everything else aside, when you make the choice to support Meredith, you are agreeing to slaughter indescriminately for the crimes of a man standing right in front of you.
Yep. Even if you're HOPING to try to save some mages who surrender, the templars already have a history of executing/tranquilizing mages they capture.
You'll also note how willing Meredith is to murder Bethany who fights AGAINST Orsino if Hawke doesn't stop Meredith. Meredith is out for blood.
Unfortunately, Meredith's paranoia stands correct here. After "Best Served Cold," Hawke and Orsino both know that there is blood-mage and demon influence within the Circle, by virtue of Grace, who was an abomination. This alone is valid grounds for the Right of Annulment.
Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. Let's think about this and where this leads us.
Your argument:
1. Grace is proof that knowledge of blood magic and demon influence exists within the Circle
2. Any knowledge of blood magic and demon influence in a Circle is grounds for the Right of Annulment
3. The Right of Annulment should be carried out
Now let's change ONE word of that and see if it's still valid:
1. Idunna is proof that knowledge of blood magic and demon influence exists within the Circle
2. Any knowledge of blood magic and demon influence in a Circle is grounds for the Right of Annulment
3. The Right of Annulment should be carried out
Huh. Look at that. We should have performed the Right of Annulment in Act 1 if we sent Idunna to the Circle since she knew blood magic and was part of a group consorting with demons. We could have skipped 2/3 of the game!
Or if you disagree with the conclusion that Idunna being in the Circle is grounds for Annulment, either 1 or 2 must be wrong. 1 is a fact in both cases. Therefore the problem lies in 2.
Or to rephrase it: knowledge of blood magic and demon influence is NOT grounds for the Right of Annulment.
Furthermore, the mages turned to blood magic and demons only in desperation for the atrocities committed against them by Meredith and the Templars. As I said, they illegally tranquiled mages, they raped them, they beat them. And Meredith and Elthina allowed it to go on. If anything should have happened, they should have ousted all of them and replaced them with Ferelden Templars.
Thank you, MagicalMaster...well said.
You're right, MagicalMaster. I truly have no clue why the Templars will take Idunna to the Gallows alive when they're known to execute known blood-mages on the spot. You'd think that, for all their reputation, Kirkwall Templars would do what they must when faced with maleficar.
Guess not.
Except your final statement is wrong. Grace, like Uldred, was an abomination of pride (and both of their respective 'Circles saw the RoA invoked).
Guest_StreetMagic_*
There's no way to tell what the Circle is really like. All kinds of conflicting rumors and info and NPCs saying it isn't a prison and others that it is. Even Bethany is among these unreliable sources.. could she be moderating her opinion because she knows you'll do something, or because it's the truth?
You just have to go with your underlying principles and beliefs. Not any particular facts.
Which kind of sucks. But it is what it is.
Part of me leans toward the Kirkwall Circle being more of a prison on the simple fact that you can never once go in there to visit, even when you're apparently given the title of "Champion of Kirkwall". You can go to the Templar hall...eventually, but you can never really go where they keep the bulk of the mages.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
If it is as bad as everyone says, then I bet Bethany got raped. And she just keeps a sunny demeanor.
I hate thinking about that though.
Never really crossed my mind, though I'd gladly kill every Templar in Kirkwall if it was true.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Never really crossed my mind, though I'd gladly kill every Templar in Kirkwall if it was true.
One thing that makes the rumors hard to believe is in her letter she says only Alrik is the one she's afraid of. And she keeps her distance. That even other templars hate how things are going. And when you save that girl that Anders nearly kills (or kills), she says "Maybe Bethany is right. The Circle isn't so bad."
If there is systematic injustice though, she's in deep crap. And just doesn't want to talk about it.
Kirkwall's Circle does seem pretty rotten though, I have to admit. They are housed in a former Tevinter dungeon, after all, with statues of slaves in despair designed to demoralize the inmates (as per the Codex). While there's some truth to what the Grand Cleric says in response to this (that it's in man's nature to forget and move on), that's no place for an institution meant to serve as a sanctuary, and it undoubtedly has an effect on mage and Templar alike. I generally support the Circle institution, but the Kirkwall chapter was an example of almost everything it's not supposed to be.
Hawke's status as prominent nobility in the city (and later with the title, Champion) probably keeps Bethany safe from Templar creeps. It's the mages from families of the middle- or lower-class that would probably be taken advantage of, IMO.
It makes me wonder, though, about Bethany after The Last Straw. I'd always assumed she'd follow Hawke on the run and go apostate, but lately I've been thinking about it and am not so sure anymore. If the Circle was restored and working as it's supposed to, I could see Bethany going back, by choice. The lifestyle just seems to suit her, I think, what with mentoring the apprentices. She's no Isabela. She's a virgin, and seemingly not interested in any kinds of "nefarious" activities. Yes, I know that in the pro-mage ending, she says something to the effect of realizing the need to free her fellow mages. She may simply mean freeing them from the Meredith's iron-fist rule, though, not the Circle itself.
What say you? 
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