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Is there evidence for the Maker being real?


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#1
lyleoffmyspace

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Is there? So many people go on about the Maker like he is actually true, but in my minds he is no more proven in the universe than the elven gods. So why do people take him as true?

 

The Chantry to me is based around control, therefore you can't take everything they say as truth and gospel because it's such a corrupt organisation. The maker could be a real entity but he could equally be a construct in the mind of a mad person, or simply a belief.

 

And that's what makes DA great - the mysterious and unknown theology - no one knows if the Maker is a real just as no one in our world knows if God is real.



#2
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Who are these "so many people"? I think most are in your camp. That it's all pretty ambiguous.



#3
Hellion Rex

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I'm sceptical, but we shall see. He could very well exist. Old Gods exist, so why couldn't He?



#4
O_OotherSide

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The ashes worked. I find "oh there is a lot of lyrium here" kind of a lame excuse for it to work.



#5
lyleoffmyspace

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I'm sceptical, but we shall see. He could very well exist. Old Gods exist, so why couldn't He?

 

I'm still really sceptical on what an Old God is. Is it just a giant, unique dragon? Is it an intelligent dragon? Is it an entity from the fade posessing a dragon? 



#6
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I'm still really sceptical on what an Old God is. Is it just a giant, unique dragon? Is it an intelligent dragon? Is it an entity from the fade posessing a dragon? 

 

We don't even know that either. But yeah, I wonder myself.

 

I also don't know why they're called archdemons, if they're just dragons.



#7
Darth Krytie

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We don't even know that either. But yeah, I wonder myself.

 

I also don't know why they're called archdemons, if they're just dragons.

 

Archdemons are dragons possessed by an Old God. Which to me says a Dragon possessed by a hella powerful demon or spirit.



#8
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Archdemons are dragons possessed by an Old God. Which to me says a Dragon possessed by a hella powerful demon or spirit.

 

But the Old Gods were dragons to begin with. So they were always archdemons?

 

edit: Or so I was led to believe.



#9
Darth Krytie

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But the Old Gods were dragons to begin with. So they were always archdemons?

 

edit: Or so I was led to believe.

 

Well, it's mysterious and never fully explained. But it seems pretty circular. However, it was never stated, I don't think, that the Old Gods were dragons, but took the forms of them?  But, who knows for certain aside from the devs.



#10
Althix

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well... according to Chantry. Real world was made by the Maker from the Fade. And the Fade is the first realm created by the Maker.



#11
lyleoffmyspace

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But the Old Gods were dragons to begin with. So they were always archdemons?

 

edit: Or so I was led to believe.

I thought the Old Gods might have been intelligent and powerful dragons.

 

Old God + Taint = Archdemon

 

What is Old God though? Normal dragon posessed by a spirit or demon...or something entirely new and different?



#12
cronshaw

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unlike the real world, the world of Dragon Age has magic and dwarves and elves. So i'm not so sure the idea of a sentient creator is really that far fetched.

And something created the darkspawn.

Whether the magisters tainted the Golden City as the Chantry claims or whether the City tainted them as Corpheus intimates.

So I think whether or not the Maker exists isn't really the question.

The question is: is he the Maker of the Chantry, or something else?

I believe this question is the driving conflict behind the series


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#13
Ieldra

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OP, to me it appears that some people (I don't know how many there are but I've met a few) have some trouble conceiving of a mythology within a fantasy world actually being nothing more than mythology because it's a kind of "two times removed speculative reality". It's a phenomenon I've seen all too often: people who are skeptical about religious claims in the real world suddenly losing that skepticism when being presented with religion within a secondary world, particurly if it's fantasy.

 

As I see it, the Maker is just as speculative as the gods of real-world religions, and if the so-called Old Gods have any plausible claim to the designation "deity" remains to be seen, since whether or not they are dragons, we don't even know if they're intelligent. Most importantly, statements of believers about the veracity of their own faith's mythology are by definition suspect since usually no independent evaluation of their claims is possible.

 

That the Chantry teaches something says nothing about actual history. Where the Chantry's teachings are historically accurate, that's only where history fits its ideological bias.

 

An example: we know the Chantry's teachings about darkspawn, the old magisters and the Golden City from as early as DAO's intro. For all of DAO and most of DA2, that was just a story with no claim to historical accuracy. Its role in the Chantry's ideology was obvious, and thus we were well-advised to be skeptical. For me, it was just your typical despicable cautionary tale designed to make people obey and not question the status quo.

When we met Corypheus in DA2:Legacy, that was the first believable evidence we had that some of Tevinter's ancient magisters indeed attempted to reach a place in the Fade they knew of as a Golden City. So now we know there is some historical accuracy hidden within the Chantry's story. Still, any other claim made about those events, particularly that the City was the home of the Maker, remain just as suspect as before. That the old magisters were in over their heads appears rather likely, but the fundamental value judgment of their actions as acts of hubris, as well as the claim the taint is ultimately their fault, is all too obviously in the interest of an organisation that wants to take or retain control of the prevalent memes about what can and can't legimitately be done with magic.

 

@cronshaw:

(1) The existence of one fantastic element has no bearing on the likelihood of another one existing. In fact, the "standard attitude" with which to approach any new world is "everything is like in the real world unless shown otherwise". Without that attitude, we would become lost in the fictional worlds. Religion, particularly Andrasteanism, works all too obviously very much like real world religion.

(2) From an in-world perspective, these elements - elves, dwarves and magic - are not fantastic but natural. The existence of a creator god is a culturally dominant meme, similar to how it was for large parts of European history, but that says nothing about the actual reality.

(3) That something came into existence does not in any way imply agency or intention. Specifically, the creation of the darkspawn might as well have been an accident intended by nobody. Even if it was intentional - which I personally believe - we have no idea whatsoever about who did this and why (unless it was Dumat). Particularly, there is no evidence at all that some entity was involved which has enough attributes in common with the Chantry's Maker to be considered identical.


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#14
lyleoffmyspace

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OP, to me it appears that some people (I don't know how many there are but I've met a few) have some trouble conceiving of a mythology within a fantasy world actually being nothing more than mythology because it's a kind of "two times removed speculative reality". It's a phenomenon I've seen all too often: people who are skeptical about religious claims in the real world suddenly losing that skepticism when being presented with religion within a secondary world, particurly if it's fantasy.

 

As I see it, the Maker is just as speculative as the gods of real-world religions, and if the so-called Old Gods have any plausible claim to the designation "deity" remains to be seen, since whether or not they are dragons, we don't even know if they're intelligent. Most importantly, statements of believers about the veracity of their own faith's mythology are by definition suspect since usually no independent evaluation of their claims is possible.

 

That the Chantry teaches something says nothing about actual history. Where the Chantry's teachings are historically accurate, that's only where history fits its ideological bias.

 

An example: we know the Chantry's teachings about darkspawn, the old magisters and the Golden City from as early as DAO's intro. For all of DAO and most of DA2, that was just a story with no claim to historical accuracy. Its role in the Chantry's ideology was obvious, and thus we were well-advised to be skeptical.

When we met Corypheus in DA2:Legacy, that was the first believable evidence we had that some of Tevinter's ancient magisters indeed attempted to reach a place in the Fade they knew of as a Golden City. So now we know there is some historical accuracy hidden within the Chantry's story. Still, any other claim made about those events, particularly that the City was the home of the Maker, remain just as suspect as before. That the old magisters were in over their heads appears rather likely, but the fundamental value judgment of their actions as acts of hubris, as well as the claim the taint is ultimately their fault, is all too obviously in the interest of an organisation that wants to take or retain control of the prevalent memes about what can and can't legimitately be done with magic.

 

@cronshaw:

(1) The existence of one fantastic element has no bearing on the likelihood of another one existing.

(2) From an in-world perspective, these elements - elves, dwarves and magic - are not fantastic but natural.

(3) That something came into existence does not in any way imply agency or intention.

This is a really good post, enjoyed reading it so well done.

 

I do think a lot of people when playing the game don't get into character enough, so they just assume the theologies in the mythos is entirely true.

 

But there definitely is a precedent for revisionism especially with the Chantry. We don't know if Andraste was just a madwoman hallucinating vision of "the Maker" or a shrewd woman trying to gain support for her rebellion, or the actual bride of the Maker.

 

Similarly, the Black City stories could easily have been made up to turn public support against the Tevinter, so empires such as Orlais would have the people on their side for wars with political and economic advantages. Reminds me of ASOIAF somehwat, we don't know if any of the gods there are true, Old Gods vs Great Other vs The Red God vs the Many-Faced God vs the Seven vs the Sheep gods.

 

I also find for all the talk in here we don't get enough of the elven gods. Are they real or false? It's too soon to say but they are even more mysterious than the Maker and equally fascinating. Maybe they are the Old Gods, or the Old Gods are physical manifestations of them? So much possibility I think it's definitely far too soon to write off the Old Gods as dragons, the Elven gods as myths, the Blights as punishments from God and the Maker as the all powerful entity.



#15
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The stories could be made up, but the Black City isn't. You can always see it in the distance in the Fade. It's unclear though what it is, how to get there, or if it was even golden.

 

As for elven gods, we know one hint from the Dalish origin where the statue of Falon'Din.. the Friend of the Dead.. is located right next to the Eluvian room. It might've all been connected with the Fade and with the City. The Eluvian leads there or something like it. And Tamlen says he sees the Black City. Perhaps the elves once used it, and Falon'Din was the guide into the city.



#16
lyleoffmyspace

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I've been in the fade and where exactly is the black city? Which one of the islands is it actually? Is there a screenshot?

 

Corypheus said it was already corrupted wasn't it - maybe the elven gods had something to do with it. Surely the Tevinter mages weren't the first mages to try and enter the fade? Elvehnan was around for thousands of years before that...maybe some elven mages corrupted it?



#17
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I've been in the fade and where exactly is the black city? Which one of the islands is it actually? Is there a screenshot?

 

Corypheus said it was already corrupted wasn't it - maybe the elven gods had something to do with it. Surely the Tevinter mages weren't the first mages to try and enter the fade? Elvehnan was around for thousands of years before that...maybe some elven mages corrupted it?

 

We don't know any of that. But it's not like the elves corrupted it, if the Eluvian was theirs. Their Elders, after living long lives, would go into the Fade willingly. It was a sacred place. I don't think they'd ruin that. It was Tevinter that was seeking to conquer them. I'd sooner believe they abused elven magic than elves ruining their own artifacts.

 

As for the city, it's in the sky, in the distance.. you'll make out some sillouhettes of spires and structures.



#18
Ieldra

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The stories could be made up, but the Black City isn't. You can always see it in the distance in the Fade. It's unclear though what it is, how to get there, or if it was even golden.

Of course we can't deny its existence. That has no bearing on the validity of any speculation about its nature or of stories told about it.
 

As for elven gods, we know one hint from the Dalish origin where the statue of Falon'Din.. the Friend of the Dead.. is located right next to the Eluvian room. It might've all been connected with the Fade and with the City. The Eluvian leads there or something like it. And Tamlen says he sees the Black City. Perhaps the elves once used it, and Falon'Din was the guide into the city.

Perhaps this, perhaps that. There are many things that "could be true". I could create a few dozen strands of mythology on what could be true. If Tamlen says he sees the Black City (I don't recall, is this when you meet him in the transformed version?), that's significant, but all it actually says is that one specific eluvian may be somehow connected with the Fade. It says nothing at all about any elven gods.
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#19
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Of course we can't deny its existence. That has no bearing on the validity of any speculation about its nature or of stories told about it.

Perhaps this, perhaps that. There are many things that "could be true". I could create a few dozen strands of mythology on what could be true. If Tamlen says he sees the Black City (I don't recall, is this when you meet him in the transformed version?), that's significant, but all it actually says is that the eluvians and the Fade may be somehow connected. It says nothing at all about any elven gods.

 

You're just repeating what I said. I don't make any definitive statements either. I'm simply putting it out there. That the Black City exists. It makes sense though if different people made up stories and myths to explain it.



#20
lyleoffmyspace

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Which one is the Black City?

The_Black_City_(Full).jpg

Fade_-_black_city_3.jpg



#21
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The bottom/horizontal pic is the one I recognize the most.



#22
Ieldra

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You're just repeating what I said. I don't make any definitive statements either. I'm simply putting it out there. That the Black City exists. It makes sense though if different people made up stories and myths to explain it.

Absolutely. My point was more that we don't have any method or knowledge that might make one story preferable to another, or even ascribe validity to any. The Chantry says the city was once golden and the magisters corrupted it, Corypheus says the city was black when they arrived. I'd acribe more credibility to Corypheus' version but I still don't have any idea what it actually means that the city was black. It would be interesting to come across some credible historical accounts of Fade explorations from the time before the magisters made their attempt.

#23
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Also, from the Codex:

 

Codex text

No traveler to the Fade can fail to spot the Black City. It is one of the few constants of that ever-changing place. No matter where one might be, the city is visible. (Always far off, for it seems that the only rule of geography in the Fade is that all points are equidistant from the Black City.)



#24
Ieldra

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Also, with regard to the OP's question, about the Black City and the magisters' attempt to physically translate into the Fade, about that at least we have a few tidbits of credible evidence. The Maker? Nil. 



#25
TurretSyndrome

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There isn't any evidence of the Maker, and I doubt there will be at all. The people who constantly go on about the Maker in the forums are only speculating on what the Maker is, if the entity even exists. The Maker could be real or just a symbol of faith. If it exists it need not be the benevolent and all-powerful creature the people of Thedas believe it to be.

 

There are only two parts of the Chantry's story that have been proven true, one is that Andraste existed, and that her ashes have power. Secondly, it is that the Magisters of Tevinter did indeed enter the City, got corrupted and were thrown back out into the mortal world, Corypheus being the proof of that. Whether the City was already black or if it was actually the Golden City that got corrupted, no one knows. Neither of these facts can act as the evidence of the Maker's existence.

 

Personally, I think that trying to come up with theories about a fictional god, even when the developers clearly stated that the existence of this god will remain uncertain is a waste of time. One's better off wondering about the existence of the gods of the real world, than some godly entity that came out of a writer's head who's intention is to never reveal the truth. 


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