Also, with regard to the OP's question, about the Black City and the magisters' attempt to physically translate into the Fade, about that at least we have a few tidbits of credible evidence. The Maker? Nil.
About as much evidence as there is for any deity in real life. So none.
And according to Gaider, that's how things are going to stay.
People are just going to have to settle for never knowing.
"Alternative" hypotheses? What the hell makes "the Maker did it" the default in the first place? It's healing magic of a particularly powerful kind. And? What does that imply about its origin? Nothing.So the Ashes working isn't evidence at all because we can come up with alternative hypotheses to explain them working? You sure you want to go that far?
Fun fact: I've never actually seen the Black City despite playing mages. I guess I keep the camera in top-down view too much.
"Alternative" hypotheses? What the hell makes "the Maker did it" the default in the first place? It's healing magic of a particularly powerful kind. And? What does that imply about its origin? Nothing.Besides, I don't know about the power of gods. What I do know something about is the power of belief. Religion may be involved with giving the ashes its power, given how the Fade works and the presence of lyrium, but I see no evidence of some super-powerful spirit or something similar being responsible.@Mockingword:That's what I've always expected to happen. Or not happen, if you want. I'm very much ok with that.
if you took oghren on the sacred urn quest, when you get to the ashes he comments on the large amount of pure lyrium veins running through the chamber... not all of the effects of lyrium are known, but we do know that lyrium has caused many weird things to happen... so calling it an act of the maker could technically be dismissed....
plus just because magic is involved, doesnt mean there has to be any gods, we have believers in the real world, who's to say it isnt the same... just because we cant explain the archdemons and fade real well doesnt mean that its all the act of some gods
i tend to think of the chantry like the vatican, at one point they controlled all of europe. It got to where it became more political than religious, which was ultimately their downfall... i believe we are seeing a similar theme here in da:i.
i tend to think of the chantry like the vatican, at one point they controlled all of europe. It got to where it became more political than religious, which was ultimately their downfall... i believe we are seeing a similar theme here in da:i.
You didn't answer my question: what makes "the Maker did it" the default assumption? Oh, while I'm at it, what makes it a valid assumption in the first place? It connects to nothing and explains nothing. It's a claim in the void, a stopgap assumption. If we actually knew that the Maker existed from independent sources, *then* there would be a point to saying he did it. It is usually considered good scholarship to exhaust explanations in terms of what we already know before we assume additional entities.Hmm. By these standards could there ever actually be any kind of evidence? This'll sound rude, but this strikes me as pretty similar to what the IT guys do; any evidence of the Maker is just more magic, just as any evidence that the ME3 endings are real is just more Indoctrination.
not all about lyrium is known, oghren mentions it was the purest he'd seen... it doesnt mean it works like a super lyrium potion for mages, the red lyrium corrupts stuff, whose to say pure lyrium cant cure you.... environmental effects can influence stuff, its why we have fresh water and salt water, sure its still water but its completely different
As I said: the Fade is liable to be shaped by the mental activity of intelligent beings, which means that collective belief can have significant effects there. Since lyrium enables mages to enter the Fade, it is also connected to the Fade. That's the hypothesis I would explore before more exotic possibilities.I understand the skepticism of divinity being involved with the ashes but I still fail to understand how lyrium granted the ashes it's healing powers. Mind you if that were the case then Orzammar's dwarves, the tranquil and the Templars should have already displayed an innate Wolverine-lite healing factor by now. Plus red lyrium is out of the question as a small sculpture was potent enough to drive people insane and the sanctuary's walls being made of it means that the Warden's sanity should've been destroyed.
The fact that Andraste new the origins of the Darkspawn despite being a barbarian born nearly two centuries after the fact could be taken as her having "Divine Insight".
Who says that she knew? The Chantry? Or do we have independent historical sources? For a real-world analogy, I would recommend getting familiar with the field of ecclesiastical history. You'd be surprised in which ways once-historical accounts have been changed. In all fields of history, a document's provenance has significant impact on the evaluation of its veracity. I'm inclined to believe Chantry sources in things where it doesn't have an ideological bias. Which of course does not apply to stories about its religion's founder.The fact that Andraste new the origins of the Darkspawn despite being a barbarian born nearly two centuries after the fact could be taken as her having "Divine Insight".
Andraste's Ashes successfully healed a dying man.
i wouldnt mind seeing the next novel being about andraste and her war
Well yeah, so have other healing magics where something else than this particular poison was used. All that really indicates is that this one is different from the one we already knew.Andraste's Ashes successfully healed a dying man.
The hypothesis seems far fetched as it would suggest that the Dwarves mining lyrium veins in the Deep Roads are in or connected to the Fade when the lore hints at the opposite.As I said: the Fade is liable to be shaped by the mental activity of intelligent beings, which means that collective belief can have significant effects there. Since lyrium enables mages to enter the Fade, it is also connected to the Fade. That's the hypothesis I would explore before more exotic possibilities.Perhaps people's readiness to accept "The Maker did it" has something to do with their inability to see how utterly exotic and extraordinary the assumption of the Makers' existence really is from an in-world perspective if you look at it without religious preconceptions.
not all about lyrium is known, oghren mentions it was the purest he'd seen... it doesnt mean it works like a super lyrium potion for mages, the red lyrium corrupts stuff, whose to say pure lyrium cant cure you.... environmental effects can influence stuff, its why we have fresh water and salt water, sure its still water but its completely different
Chicken or the egg? Oghren's comments made me think that perhaps the Lyrium grew around the ashes like plants to the sun. I don't have a problem with the Maker existing in some form; any label will work for a force/presence/entity beyond the scope of understanding. I simply have minimal trust that the chantry (or any organization with an agenda) represents historical fact.
Their 'Maker' is simply their definition. The Maker, the Trickster, the Formless Ones, the Old Gods, Flemeth....I honestly couldn't say where one ends and the next begins. We know the Old Gods actually exist, but do we know their nature? We don't even know what Lyrium is, or exactly what the Fade and the Veil are, and they're omnipresent in the games.
Lyrium, the power of belief mediated through the Fade, those are things we either already know to exist or whose existence is in accord with the lore. Not to make a too fine point of it, but the Maker's existence is not part of the lore, belief in his existence is. Meanwhile, we know that human dreams can shape the Fade. It's absolutely no stretch to think that collective belief may let magical effects manifest, and since the Fade is (to use yet another in-world theory) co-existent with material reality, it touches everything that isn't specially shielded against it.Mind you i care little for irl religious debate in a fantasy world but find the theories dismissing the Maker's existence just as flawed and inconclusive to any that proves it.
Why don't we ever see "Is there any evidence for the Dalish Pantheon" Being real, or if the "Old Gods" were real.
its always the Maker in threads like this.
Its just a shameless attempt to discredit a fictional deity which Bioware and Gaider have both said they will not confirm or deny their existence but have said they could very well exist, that should be the end of it.
thats like saying your not going to play the game because it isnt real
we do it because its entertaining to those of us who are bored to tears at work
I have no trouble believing in the possibility of a God/gods existing considering there is no other logical explanation for how everything came into existence. I'd take "a wizard did it" over no explanation at all. :3
So yes, the Maker/elven gods being real seems possible to me. It'd be more interesting if they did exist.
If the folks who create the lore of the game in question, make it possible for the deity to exist you should accept possibility of their existence.
That's my point.
We're not talking about possibilities but about actualities. Meanwhile, the fact that a lot of people believe in something alone says nothing about its possibility, and even less about its actuality. The lore says a lot of people believe in the Maker but nothing more.If the folks who create the lore of the game in question, make it possible for the deity to exist you should accept possibility of their existence.
We're not talking about possibilities but about actualities. Meanwhile, the fact that a lot of people believe in something alone says nothing about its possibility, and even less about its actuality. The lore says a lot of people believe in the Maker but nothing more.
Edit:
BTW, if we had the knowledge to correctly evaluate if the existence of a creator god is possible, we would most likely also have enough knowledge to examine whether one actually exists. Yet again, all the lore tells us is that the belief exists.
Because we cannot measure it in that spectrum?
Because Bioware it self has said its a matter of faith.
._. Honestly you trying to look it in a light that Bioware it self said you shouldn't given there isn't any conclusive evidence for any of these deities, i was just pointing out that there isn't any evidence of any patheon existing, its just the Maker seemingly gets targeted more then any deity for credence of its existence.
So take it as a matter of faith and move on, sheesh.
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